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Thread: Off-duty cop, OCing, shoots, kills firefighter.

  1. #1
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    Off-duty cop, OCing, shoots, kills firefighter.

    I expect most of you will see this as justified.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itPY54C_guM

    News article:

    http://www.kansascity.com/2014/02/25...ts-before.html

  2. #2
    Regular Member ron73440's Avatar
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    Can't watch the videos, but the article explains the situation, and unless they left something out, I don't see anything that says it isn't justified

    Also, a cop in uniform does not count as an OC'er.
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    Regular Member Stretch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ron73440 View Post
    Can't watch the videos, but the article explains the situation, and unless they left something out, I don't see anything that says it isn't justified

    Also, a cop in uniform does not count as an OC'er.
    It doesn't?

    It seems based on witness testimony and the report published, along with the video he was justified in his actions.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Alpine's Avatar
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    The video is pretty damning for the guy who died, he mounted the cop and started beating his face in while onlookers were pleading with him not to.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    I expect most of you will see this as justified.
    Well, count me amongst that majority then.

    Do you see a problem with the officer's actions?

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    Regular Member Tackleberry1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    The video is pretty damning for the guy who died, he mounted the cop and started beating his face in while onlookers were pleading with him not to.
    Yep... Don't see any problem with this cops actions.

  7. #7
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    We don't see the whole context of the events. It is hard to tell what exactly is going on in the beginning before we see the video? I will say this may have been calmed by the officer deploying OC spray or a taser...both would have required him to yield distance. I see him attempting to jump forward with his full body weight and place his knee/shin down across the mans neck. From there all hell breaks loose. A 200lb weight being dropped towards my neck is going to make me want to move also. This seems to be a escalating series of misjudgements with both parties involved. Just MHO...YMMV.
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 02-26-2014 at 04:15 PM.
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    Do you see a problem with the officer's actions?


    No.

  9. #9
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    While I'm not saying the person who fired the shots was wrong - is assault a death sentence crime? I could not see the citizen going for the LEO's gun? If he was fine...but let's think a little before we just OK instantaneous executions being carried out.

    Let's put it another way - I see a fellow citizen being beaten in the street, who happens to be wearing a holstered pistol. Can I shoot the attacker and kill him or her or them, if they have not attempted to take said pistol in their hand? Laws vary greatly by state...but as a citizen, I don't think I'd fare too well in a court room and a jury judging me. Police are citizens! A case can be made that they are not held to the same standards as LAC's when it comes to the use of deadly force.

    Edit***
    The video is confusing - just as the shots are fired you see a person who looks to be in uniform run by the camera. This person did not fire. It's the security guard / LEO on the ground who fired fearing he was going to pass out. This being the case, it becomes a "in fear for my life" issue.

    Again, had other options been used such as: following while calling for backup been used I think the firefighter would still be alive. Both parties could have made much better choices IMHO. Glad only one person died and no bystanders or other innocents. Sad happenings all around.
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 02-26-2014 at 05:04 PM.
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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Hubbard, who was working security for the Marriott while wearing his Police Department uniform
    Yeah that's the problem.

    PRIVATE security GUARD shoots someone who is OFF the PRIVATE property he was hired to guard.

    Wrong on so many levels.

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    Regular Member Stretch's Avatar
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    “That’s when my husband got out of the taxi and began hitting the taxicab driver..."
    This is a problem too.

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    If the article is true to the word, I see no problem.

    A non-critical point that some might get hung up on is the off-duty cop wearing his uniform as private security.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    From what I saw completely justified.
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    the security guard/cop should go back to training and learn how to apply handcuffs on a suspect... Had the guy been properly cuffed he would probably be alive today... Training, training, training....

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    Regular Member Gallowmere's Avatar
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    As much time as I spend running overly aggressive cops through the ringer, for this, I have to say 100% justified. I don't give a damn who you are, if someone has you in that kind of position, beating you about the face, you would have to be a fool to not fire, while you still had a chance.

    I see so many factors here that contributed to this turning into what it did, and it really just proves something that all of us here already know. All it takes is a moment of distraction. The situation was clearly never under control, but in that moment that he yelled to the onlookers, he was distracted, lost any advantage that he had, and was taken by surprise, ending up on his back.

    Also, at any given point, that cop probably could have hit him with a taser, or enough pepper spray to blister the skin, and wouldn't have faced any repercussions for it. The fact that he didn't, tells me that he was an officer not wanting to use excessive force. It's just sad that this time, not using excessive force, ended with the need for using deadly force.

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    Activist Member golddigger14s's Avatar
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    My 2 cents:
    Justified - Yes
    OC Related - No
    WA Related - No
    Move to Social - Yes
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallowmere View Post
    As much time as I spend running overly aggressive cops through the ringer, for this, I have to say 100% justified. I don't give a damn who you are, if someone has you in that kind of position, beating you about the face, you would have to be a fool to not fire, while you still had a chance.

    I see so many factors here that contributed to this turning into what it did, and it really just proves something that all of us here already know. All it takes is a moment of distraction. The situation was clearly never under control, but in that moment that he yelled to the onlookers, he was distracted, lost any advantage that he had, and was taken by surprise, ending up on his back.

    Also, at any given point, that cop probably could have hit him with a taser, or enough pepper spray to blister the skin, and wouldn't have faced any repercussions for it. The fact that he didn't, tells me that he was an officer not wanting to use excessive force. It's just sad that this time, not using excessive force, ended with the need for using deadly force.
    Agree completely!
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    is assault a death sentence crime? ... before we just OK instantaneous executions being carried out.
    WHAT??? No, it's not a "death sentence crime", but it's certainly a "justifiable case of self-defense crime". And NO again, killing someone in self-defense is NOT an execution. Words have meaning.


    Laws vary greatly by state...
    Actually in this particular arena, they don't. About all you can say is some states have Stand Your Ground by statute, some have it by case law (basically the situation here in WA), and some have a degree of duty-to-retreat. But I defy you to find a single state where protecting yourself against serious bodily harm isn't a justification for using lethal force.

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    Regular Member ron73440's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stretch View Post
    It doesn't?

    It seems based on witness testimony and the report published, along with the video he was justified in his actions.
    A cop in uniform, even off duty is not the same as a person OC'ing as they go about their daily business.

    The title makes it look like he was OC'ing unrelaed to being a cop, when in fact he was providing security in his uniform.
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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kparker View Post
    WHAT??? No, it's not a "death sentence crime", but it's certainly a "justifiable case of self-defense crime". And NO again, killing someone in self-defense is NOT an execution.
    Whut? Assault is grounds for justifiable self defense?

    That cabbie should not have assaulted* the female passenger by throwing something in her face, resulting in her husband beating the cabbie in the face.

    So the cop killed a guy who was defending his wife.


    *Throw something in a cops face and you're pretty much guaranteed an assault charge, be it a dollar bill, an empty starbucks cup, a baseball hat, etc.

  21. #21
    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    Jesus, you guys, listen to yourselves.

    I'm one to call cops out on misconduct just as much as the next guy, but you have to put yourself in his situation. If someone has you pinned to the ground and is beating your face in, can you really say with a straight face that you wouldn't draw and fire? Because I sure as hell would.
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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignAxe View Post
    Jesus, you guys, listen to yourselves.

    I'm one to call cops out on misconduct just as much as the next guy, but you have to put yourself in his situation. If someone has you pinned to the ground and is beating your face in, can you really say with a straight face that you wouldn't draw and fire? Because I sure as hell would.
    As a private security guard, he shouldn't have tried dealing with an off property problem. He should have used his phone first, not his gun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_pro2a View Post
    Whut? Assault is grounds for justifiable self defense?

    That cabbie should not have assaulted* the female passenger by throwing something in her face, resulting in her husband beating the cabbie in the face.

    So the cop killed a guy who was defending his wife.


    *Throw something in a cops face and you're pretty much guaranteed an assault charge, be it a dollar bill, an empty starbucks cup, a baseball hat, etc.
    Someone throwing money in you, or your wife's, face is not grounds for battery.

    It scares me that anyone who visits this site and who OC's would ever see escalating that kind of minor incident into battery as okay. One of the most basic tenets of carrying a firearm is that you never escalate a situation you can walk away from. For instance, my main problem with the Zimmerman case was not that he shot Martin in that moment. It was that he probably chose to continue and to escalate a completely non-violent situation out of anger, while armed.

    This guy was not defending his wife. Defending his wife would have been paying the fare that was due, getting everyone out of the cab, and getting a new cab (which is super easy at a downtown hotel, even at that time of night) to take the cousin home. Instead he did one of the most harmful things he could possibly do to her, he commited multiple crimes and then get himself shot and killed. Being a man frequently means walking away, even from confrontations you know you could "win".

    Also, when you send someone who is drunk home alone in a cab you pay extra because you are basically handing off the responsibility for that person's well-being to the cabbie. So you are paying for him to act like he cares, such as by actually taking the person where you asked, and maybe even helping them to their door. You are also pushing for the possibility the driver will lose the rest of his fares that night due to having to clean the vomit out of his car.

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  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_pro2a View Post
    As a private security guard, he shouldn't have tried dealing with an off property problem. He should have used his phone first, not his gun.
    That right there ^^ is the problem with "off-duty" cops. They claim to be "off-duty" until some crime goes down in front of them and then claim that their department mandates that they must respond as a LEO.

    And check to see who pays any Workers Comp claim for injuries sustained by an "off-duty" cop.

    I can hire a private security officer who gets paid (around here) about $12.50/hr and they will "Observe and Report" the heck out of anything that goes down on their assigned post. They have no duty to report a fire next door unless it threatens the property they are assigned to. They have no duty to physically intervene in anything that takes place off their post.

    OR

    I can hire my own law enforcement officer at time-and-a-half of his regular "on-duty" pay rate to enforce all laws on my property, that I could not get them to do just moments before when they were "on-duty" because they are only obligated to provide police service to the community as opposed to any specific person or business.

    Now getting to whether or not the guy in the cop suit (my way of avoiding the on-duty/off-duty conundrum) legitimately had reason to fear death or serious bodily injury - can't tell from the video. But if he did, and he shot to STOP THE THREAT of death or serious bodily injury, as opposed to intending to kill the guy, then it probably will be ruled excusable homicide. (Law lesson: when cops kill someone in self defense it is excusable; when you kill someone in self defense it is justified.)

    stay safe.
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  25. #25
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arentol View Post
    Someone throwing money in you, or your wife's, face is not grounds for battery.
    If a cab driver threw something in a cops face, what would be the likely outcome?

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