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Thread: 1911 vs. G20 vs. G34

  1. #1
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    1911 vs. G23 vs. G34

    Alright boys and girls.... was feeling frisky tonight and figured I'd some "tests" tonight at the range. This test was conducted at a local indoor range. Temp was a moderate 65ish. No idea about humidity. All shots were from the same stance and "style" or lack there of (isosceles, two handed, strong hand). Distance was at 25FT and 50 FT +or - a few inches. So.... here's the guns...

    1911- Auto Ordnance in .45 cal
    G34- 9mm ( "full size" )
    G23- .40 cal ( medium size )

    Ammo-
    All 1911 was in Hornady Critical Defense JHP 185 GR
    G34 was half in Aguilla 9mm 124 GR FMJ and half in some left over stuff from who knows were. It was shiny and 9mm. See disclaimer at bottom.
    G23 was half in Remington 180GR JHP and half was 155GR American Eagle FMJ.

    So... Here's some photos and results hopefully...

    First... 1911 dun dun dun dun dun.....


    The middle two photos are from the 50 FT mark.

    Pros- Accurate. Recoil is minor due to firearm weight/design. First RD is SA.

    Cons- Not used to the trigger. More operator error then Gun. Not used to take up until stop, then having to "yank" the trigger to get it to go. This is a MA compliant model so the good old cave man 10 lb trigger. Get a trigger job if/when you get one of these.



    NOTE= ALL TARGETS WERE A 5 1/2 IN BULLS EYE TARGET. THE PIECE OF PAPER IS 8 1/2 BY ABOUT 12.
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    Last edited by Primus; 02-28-2014 at 01:26 AM.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    G34

    Next G34.....

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    Glocks run like.... Glocks. They all seem to be the same. From a baby Glock up to these full size "tactical" Glocks. The trigger is.... unique lets say. I've grown accustomed to it, simply because I'm a Glock guy. Try one before you buy it.

    The first half of photos 1,2 were using some ammo that I found in my safe in a ammo case, can't remember who makes it or what the weights were. The second set are using Aguilla Ammo 134 GR. No issues.
    Last edited by Primus; 02-28-2014 at 12:57 AM.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    G23

    G23.... half with JHP and half with FMJ

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    G23... good old .40. This is my carry gun.

    The photos are set up with the American Eagle ammo first, 25FT then 50ft. Then the Rem. JHP stuff at 25 FT and 50 FT. This is my favorite gun, but it's because I carry it for work, carry it off duty, and shoot it in competitions. So I am biased.
    Last edited by Primus; 02-28-2014 at 12:59 AM.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Disclaimer...

    1) I'm not a friggin scientist. So there's NOTHING scientific about the above "tests".
    2) I'm not a gun guru. I just shoot alot. There is definitely operator error in some of those shot groups. This was basically 1 continuous test with no rest breaks, so yea by the end there was a bit of fatigue from trying to hit a bulls eye at 50 friggin FT.
    3) This isn't an endorsement or "write up" from a magazine or an "expert". This is a guy who shoots alot who figured I'd share some photos of what I can do with these guns. I'll gladly answer any questions about these firearms or this range session.
    4) Yea.... I'm an idiot. The Thread Title has a typo that I can't fix. It says G20 as opposed to G23. Good thing I turned down that NASA job :-)
    Last edited by Primus; 02-28-2014 at 01:30 AM.

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    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Well, you seem to transition better between the angles at which you cant the guns (1911 vs Glocks). There are some things (like said angle) I just don't like about Glocks and other Glock-tastic guns, but accuracy and reliability aren't on that list.

    Also, I doubt people will try to make this a "scientific accuracy" thread. Seeing as we OC for self defense, I think people will realize that humidity, wind speed and direction, lighting, and the position of the moon are all up to the whims of the cosmos.

    Nice pictures, by the way. Any chance we can have photos of the guns?
    Last edited by Rusty Young Man; 02-28-2014 at 04:42 AM.
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    The position of the moon is very accurate. Unless it is not the moon that rotates the earth, such as a personal moon.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Your tests are relevant to you and are interesting.

    But translating them to others is a hard line to pull.

    Glad you enjoyed doing them done many like them myself it is always good to know how's ones own pistols shoot and handle.

    The practice never hurts.
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Do that again, but shoot the G23 first, the G34, second and then the 1911. You'll see where the fatigue component comes into play. Thanks for the info.

    Side note, to save a few bucks use el cheapo WWB ammo.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Do that again, but shoot the G23 first, the G34, second and then the 1911. You'll see where the fatigue component comes into play. Thanks for the info.

    Side note, to save a few bucks use el cheapo WWB ammo.
    I definitely will. I did notice that I was straining with the stock sights on the 1911. Both the Gs have night sights. But different types of night sights. The 34 has a while U in white while the 23 has actual dot inlay glow sights.

    I found it was tough focusing on the front sight and getting it clear while getting a sight picture at the 50 ft mark. Maybe a new front sight post is in order.

    It was actually first time I had ever fired this 1911 with this trigger set up, so it was a but of curve.

    I'm starting to see why guys say 1911 is the way to go for accuracy and competitions.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    If Glocks had barrel bushings they would be just as accurate as a 1911. JMB designed the 1911 to lock the barrel in three places, the front bushing is integral to that locking that barrel. Many people think a tight bushing is the answer, it is not, it causes malfunction problems to use one. I never have, and get extreme accuracy with the milsurp bushing and a milsurp slide. The bushing is made loose enough to cant in the slide that cant under spring pressure not only locks the barrel but the bushing also in the slide. The barrel cannot help but return to the same position each time it is fired. From my 40 years of shooting 1911's have always found they get more accurate the more they are fired. That has to do with the wear of the bushing to the slide to match the cant to the barrel.

    To see how this works take your ring and slide it onto a dowel rod and then cant the ring. It has no choice but to lock. Glock is a good gun for most people, for self defense, because they are not capable of putting a bullet directly into a eye socket. Most times my carry is with weapons I trust to give me that kind of accuracy.

    If you really want to see what a 1911 will do, lock it in a ransom rest and watch it put round after round into the same hole.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 02-28-2014 at 11:21 AM.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    For a standard 1911A1, ~7 pounder when loaded w/7 rounds, the first shot is the toughest one. The slide action naturally places the muzzle back on target. My experience is with the GI modle only. Those fancified Kimbers et al are high priced/over priced for a"45" in my view.

    I used to demonstrate to trainees, Range Master and SA Instructor in the Navy, that the 1911A1 could be shot accurately with only a index finger and thumb. The gun would rock back and forth. I got pretty good at putting five rounds down range (@25 yds) in about 10 seconds and keep the hits within a dinner plate sized area of a B29 target, center of mass.

    I've never shot a Glock, but have shot my XD. Similar? I don't know. I need more than a little switch on the trigger where mechanical safeties are concerned. I like the 1911A1 grip safety at a minimum, but thumb safety is the best safety in my view. My P90 has a decocker (thumb safety). There are some "under the hood" safety features that make my P90 the safest (in my view) gun in my house where kids are concerned. The decocker took a bit of getting used to. I'm still not used to it, and knowing it is safe to use while a round is chambered is a mental block kind of thing. It is a irrational concern, I know, but I'll deal with it.

    http://www.realguns.com/archives/182.htm

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    For a standard 1911A1, ~7 pounder when loaded w/7 rounds, the first shot is the toughest one. The slide action naturally places the muzzle back on target. My experience is with the GI modle only. Those fancified Kimbers et al are high priced/over priced for a"45" in my view.

    I used to demonstrate to trainees, Range Master and SA Instructor in the Navy, that the 1911A1 could be shot accurately with only a index finger and thumb. The gun would rock back and forth. I got pretty good at putting five rounds down range (@25 yds) in about 10 seconds and keep the hits within a dinner plate sized area of a B29 target, center of mass.

    I've never shot a Glock, but have shot my XD. Similar? I don't know. I need more than a little switch on the trigger where mechanical safeties are concerned. I like the 1911A1 grip safety at a minimum, but thumb safety is the best safety in my view. My P90 has a decocker (thumb safety). There are some "under the hood" safety features that make my P90 the safest (in my view) gun in my house where kids are concerned. The decocker took a bit of getting used to. I'm still not used to it, and knowing it is safe to use while a round is chambered is a mental block kind of thing. It is a irrational concern, I know, but I'll deal with it.

    http://www.realguns.com/archives/182.htm
    Oh, from the linked article/review.

    Both firearms are intended for law enforcement, civilian concealed carry, home defense, and recreational shooting.
    The P90 is not a "civilian conceal carry" weapon, it is a "in your face Jack" (a little Uncle Si there) OC weapon. That thing is a tank, in my view, and when loaded up it is heavy, uncomfortable so. Now, if I was 6'8" or so then maybe it would feel like a good concealed carry gat.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    For a standard 1911A1, ~7 pounder when loaded w/7 rounds, the first shot is the toughest one. The slide action naturally places the muzzle back on target. My experience is with the GI modle only. Those fancified Kimbers et al are high priced/over priced for a"45" in my view.

    I used to demonstrate to trainees, Range Master and SA Instructor in the Navy, that the 1911A1 could be shot accurately with only a index finger and thumb. The gun would rock back and forth. I got pretty good at putting five rounds down range (@25 yds) in about 10 seconds and keep the hits within a dinner plate sized area of a B29 target, center of mass.

    I've never shot a Glock, but have shot my XD. Similar? I don't know. I need more than a little switch on the trigger where mechanical safeties are concerned. I like the 1911A1 grip safety at a minimum, but thumb safety is the best safety in my view. My P90 has a decocker (thumb safety). There are some "under the hood" safety features that make my P90 the safest (in my view) gun in my house where kids are concerned. The decocker took a bit of getting used to. I'm still not used to it, and knowing it is safe to use while a round is chambered is a mental block kind of thing. It is a irrational concern, I know, but I'll deal with it.

    http://www.realguns.com/archives/182.htm
    Not 7 pounds, sorry 3.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Oh, from the linked article/review.

    The P90 is not a "civilian conceal carry" weapon, it is a "in your face Jack" (a little Uncle Si there) OC weapon. That thing is a tank, in my view, and when loaded up it is heavy, uncomfortable so. Now, if I was 6'8" or so then maybe it would feel like a good concealed carry gat.
    In the northern states 9 months out of the year a jacket is worn you can conceal a 1911 , P90 or full size revolver I have carried them all.

    In the winter one could conceal a AR carbine if one wanted to.
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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    In the northern states 9 months out of the year a jacket is worn you can conceal a 1911 , P90 or full size revolver I have carried them all.

    In the winter one could conceal a AR carbine if one wanted to.
    Do you conceal IWB? Or just regular holster with low enough hem line? If you use an IWB do you find the size and or weight an issue?

    I'm tempted to start carrying the 1911

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Do you conceal IWB? Or just regular holster with low enough hem line? If you use an IWB do you find the size and or weight an issue?

    I'm tempted to start carrying the 1911

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    I only have one IWB that for 1911 but fits my HI power well also Hardly ever use it Mostly I carry my full size guns I pancake style holsters with a long enough hem line to conceal them not hard in cold or cool weather. Every now and then I well use a horizontal shoulder rig. I also have a vertical chest rig for the 7.5 inch Red Hawk I use hunting.

    When carrying my 44s on my belt I wear suspenders also the weight of a Red Hawk tends to drag things down.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Do you conceal IWB? Or just regular holster with low enough hem line? If you use an IWB do you find the size and or weight an issue?

    I'm tempted to start carrying the 1911

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    1911's are one of the most concealable full sized guns. Because they are not as thick as the double stacks they conceal very very well using a IWB holster. I carried mine shoved in my waistband behind my right hip, when working undercover, and it was very secure that way. Wearing a holster is a dead giveaway that you are a cop. Criminals do not use holsters, mostly because if they ditch a gun and are caught the holster links the gun found to them. A Star is even better because it is slimmer than the 1911. A Star BK was a popular CC gun with police in the 70's and 80's.

    FI I used a pancake holster for my M39 while at the University. We were issued two holsters, a DH duty holster and a pancake.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 02-28-2014 at 11:08 PM.
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    1911's are one of the most concealable full sized guns. Because they are not as thick as the double stacks they conceal very very well using a IWB holster.
    Yup. This also makes them one of the most comfortable EDC guns in general.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    1911's are one of the most concealable full sized guns. Because they are not as thick as the double stacks they conceal very very well using a IWB holster.
    My 9mm is full-sized and double-stacked. While it doesn't pack the punch of a .45, I do have 16+1. As it is, a double-stacked 9mm is no wider than a single-stacked .45.

    Tradeoffs/

    [quote]I carried mine shoved in my waistband behind my right hip, when working undercover, and it was very secure that way. Wearing a holster is a dead giveaway that you are a cop.[/qutoe]

    And if you're not a cop? The most frequent question I've been asked while OC is, "Are you a cop?" I tell them "no," but as I'm not actively bringing down bad guys, it's not a detriment for those who don't ask to think I may be.
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    As it is, a double-stacked 9mm is no wider than a single-stacked .45.
    Tell that to Gaston Glock.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=since9;2040319]My 9mm is full-sized and double-stacked. While it doesn't pack the punch of a .45, I do have 16+1. As it is, a double-stacked 9mm is no wider than a single-stacked .45.

    Tradeoffs/

    I carried mine shoved in my waistband behind my right hip, when working undercover, and it was very secure that way. Wearing a holster is a dead giveaway that you are a cop.[/qutoe]

    And if you're not a cop? The most frequent question I've been asked while OC is, "Are you a cop?" I tell them "no," but as I'm not actively bringing down bad guys, it's not a detriment for those who don't ask to think I may be.
    I'll have to put up comparison photos of the G34 and 1911 to see about the width thing. I was already asked for photos just need to make time to shoot (get it?) them. I might be wrong but pretty sure my 23 and 34 are about same width. But one is 9mm and one .40 both double stack. I'm curious now. When I get home I'll check and post tomorrow.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    ... As it is, a double-stacked 9mm is no wider than a single-stacked .45...
    It doesn't need to be, no, but some are.

    But what really matters more is that the single-stack can have a more rounded cross-section through the grip. It feels less like a brick.
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    A lot of this if one gun is more concealable then another is more about how or what one is wearing then the firearm.

    If one is down to a pair of shorts and no shirt about the only thing is a LCP sized firearm. Add a long tailed shirt and a good belt you can move up in sized a lot.

    Moving up to a well fitted suit cut to carry you can hide most full size hand guns, my 7.5 in Red Hawk is very hard to hide.

    Move up to a good sized loose fitting jacket you can hide even that.

    Cover your self with a cold weather parka I could hide a M4

    Good holsters and belts also help make handguns more concealable.

    Also why and where you need to conceal if you are some place where being found out means death or lengthy jail time one needs to be a lot more careful.

    If your in one of the more freedom loving states it doesn't matter as much if some one notices or thinks that they notice that your armed.

    What I wear is more weather related then a fashion statement. So when I am open carrying my firearm on a good belt rig then the weather turns a bit and I throw a shirt or jacket on. Now it is concealed doesn't matter if some one sees it, not one bit.

    If one is illegal doing so then yes if your have a permit or are in a constitutional carry state no.

    When I walk out of the house this morning at -10 below my side arm well be concealed.
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  24. #24
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Do you conceal IWB? Or just regular holster with low enough hem line? If you use an IWB do you find the size and or weight an issue?

    I'm tempted to start carrying the 1911

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    Please excuse my interjecting.

    I tried a IWB with my XD and I found that the cost of buying larger pants unacceptable. I use a paddle holster, DeSantis Viper, which rides high on the belt and my normal coats, Carhart, covers while not bending over. I really do not attempt to "concealed means concealed" while I carry. MO is a OC state, fortunately. My lightweight jacket (field coat) is from L.L. Bean which is longer and drops below my jeans pockets.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Please excuse my interjecting.

    I tried a IWB with my XD and I found that the cost of buying larger pants unacceptable. I use a paddle holster, DeSantis Viper, which rides high on the belt and my normal coats, Carhart, covers while not bending over. I really do not attempt to "concealed means concealed" while I carry. MO is a OC state, fortunately. My lightweight jacket (field coat) is from L.L. Bean which is longer and drops below my jeans pockets.
    No excusal needed your input and opinion is always welcomed.

    I wear the same size pants all the time whether concealing or not, but I appendix carry so the gun naturally fits in your hip area. Ive never tried the over the rear side of the hip thing or directly at the three on the hip, but I can see why it would cause tightening of the pants since its already at a stretch point of the pants.

    Also, if you ever do decide to conceal check out the blade tech nano holsters. Pretty awesome. Great protection on the firearm and extremely thin to not add bulk in your pants.

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