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Thread: Retaliation against CT Legislators who voted in favor of gun registration

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    Retaliation against CT Legislators who voted in favor of gun registration

    It sure seems to that this registration mess in CT is going to turn bad. One of the gun owners who received one of the "confiscation" letters has posted all the names of the state's legislatures on the net. I hope this doesn't result in bloodshed, but I'm afraid it is coming. Somebody will likely take Thomas Jefferson's famous "Tree of Liberty" quote literally.


    "Retaliation: Home Addresses of CT Legislators Who Voted in Favor of Gun Registration Posted By Patriot Activist

    Sometimes you just have to fight fire with fire. And that is exactly what Mike Vanderboegh has chosen to do. The state of Connecticut wants to make a list – a list of gun owners. So, Vanderboegh has created his own list – a list of those state legislators who are insisting that certain firearms be banned or registered.

    If you recall, most of the gun owners who own these weapons have refused to register them, with tens of thousands of residents engaging in acts of quiet civil disobedience.

    The state responded by sending out letters, demanding that gun owners across the state turn in all of their newly-banned, unregistered firearms and magazines or face felony prosecution.

    Vanderboegh, who is himself a member of at least one list (the SPLC has profiled him on their "Hatewatch" blog, which is really kind of a badge of honor in certain circles), has responded to this by compiling a list of his own: it is a list of all of the legislators in the state of Connecticut who voted in favor of the recently passed gun registrations laws in the state. Vanderboegh is the leader of the Sipsey Street Irregulars, a group of patriot activists who identify with the 3% of American Colonists who fought back against tyranny during the Revolutionary War."

    Read more at:

    http://freedomoutpost.com/2014/02/re...riot-activist/

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    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Augustin View Post
    It sure seems to that this registration mess in CT is going to turn bad. One of the gun owners who received one of the "confiscation" letters has posted all the names of the state's legislatures on the net. I hope this doesn't result in bloodshed, but I'm afraid it is coming. Somebody will likely take Thomas Jefferson's famous "Tree of Liberty" quote literally.


    "Retaliation: Home Addresses of CT Legislators Who Voted in Favor of Gun Registration Posted By Patriot Activist

    Sometimes you just have to fight fire with fire. And that is exactly what Mike Vanderboegh has chosen to do. The state of Connecticut wants to make a list – a list of gun owners. So, Vanderboegh has created his own list – a list of those state legislators who are insisting that certain firearms be banned or registered.

    If you recall, most of the gun owners who own these weapons have refused to register them, with tens of thousands of residents engaging in acts of quiet civil disobedience.

    The state responded by sending out letters, demanding that gun owners across the state turn in all of their newly-banned, unregistered firearms and magazines or face felony prosecution.

    Vanderboegh, who is himself a member of at least one list (the SPLC has profiled him on their "Hatewatch" blog, which is really kind of a badge of honor in certain circles), has responded to this by compiling a list of his own: it is a list of all of the legislators in the state of Connecticut who voted in favor of the recently passed gun registrations laws in the state. Vanderboegh is the leader of the Sipsey Street Irregulars, a group of patriot activists who identify with the 3% of American Colonists who fought back against tyranny during the Revolutionary War."

    Read more at:

    http://freedomoutpost.com/2014/02/re...riot-activist/
    Somehow, this situation of a government marching in to confiscate guns on this side of the Atlantic seems all too familiar.... I vaguely recall some revolutionary () thoughts on government and natural Rights being implemented afterwards.
    Last edited by Rusty Young Man; 02-28-2014 at 03:06 PM.
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    Campaign Veteran Running Wolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Augustin View Post

    The state responded by sending out letters, demanding that gun owners across the state turn in all of their newly-banned, unregistered firearms and magazines or face felony prosecution.
    Has this actually been confirmed? Anybody here in the CT section gotten one? I'm not denying it, I'm just questioning the veracity of the statement. I'm also not down-playing the seriousness of the situation in your state. I, for one, will stand in solidarity with my brethren in CT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Running Wolf View Post
    Has this actually been confirmed? Anybody here in the CT section gotten one? I'm not denying it, I'm just questioning the veracity of the statement. I'm also not down-playing the seriousness of the situation in your state. I, for one, will stand in solidarity with my brethren in CT.
    Yes, I checked on the letter.

    But the result was NOT that the letter was received by anyone because, according to a FOIA response from a request I filed yesterday or the day before, DESPP (state police) has not sent out any letters and they are as baffled by the posted letter as you and me.

    Additionally, the addresses and names were not posted by a CT resident I think .. although I had this list before as well as numerous other public officials' home addresses and phone numbers for use in my FOIA efforts.

    All these public officials are worried about the information being made public in this manner? I doubt it. I have known judges hearing mobster cases who asked for marshal protection being told to drop dead - its part of the job, the risk.

    The guy who posted the names/addresses/phone numbers linked in the OP's link is not a CT resident I think...could be wrong...so its not retaliation by a gun owner who got the letter (as no letters have been sent out as far as I know and believe based on FACTS).

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Yes, I checked on the letter.

    But the result was NOT that the letter was received by anyone because, according to a FOIA response from a request I filed yesterday or the day before, DESPP (state police) has not sent out any letters and they are as baffled by the posted letter as you and me.

    Additionally, the addresses and names were not posted by a CT resident I think .. although I had this list before as well as numerous other public officials' home addresses and phone numbers for use in my FOIA efforts.

    All these public officials are worried about the information being made public in this manner? I doubt it. I have known judges hearing mobster cases who asked for marshal protection being told to drop dead - its part of the job, the risk.

    The guy who posted the names/addresses/phone numbers linked in the OP's link is not a CT resident I think...could be wrong...so its not retaliation by a gun owner who got the letter (as no letters have been sent out as far as I know and believe based on FACTS).
    No its more guys trying to poke a bee hive and cause violence.

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    Regular Member Gallowmere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    No its more guys trying to poke a bee hive and cause violence.
    That may be the case, and I honestly hope that the legislators and police realize that this issue is an unstable powder keg. There's no denying that there are plenty of people who would have absolutely no problem mobilizing in the event that this starts to go south. I've even seen several posts by Connecticut LEOs in various forums/social media stating that they aren't even sure if they are willing to participate in a confiscation, if it comes to that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallowmere View Post
    That may be the case, and I honestly hope that the legislators and police realize that this issue is an unstable powder keg. There's no denying that there are plenty of people who would have absolutely no problem mobilizing in the event that this starts to go south. I've even seen several posts by Connecticut LEOs in various forums/social media stating that they aren't even sure if they are willing to participate in a confiscation, if it comes to that.
    That's what I have been wondering. How many of the LEO'S will follow the order if given to go door to door and seize guns. It's easy for the bureaucrats to give that order and sign the warrants. But those who have to do it will have to make a hard choice.

    Here is the problem I see. They passed the law and now they have to enforce it. Now they know they will meet resistance in doing so but not sure to what extent. So do they risk starting a war with the citizens ?
    Or do they look like fools for passing this law and no will to enforce it ?

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    SOP with the standard 9-man SWAT teams is that if they run into gunshots they take cover and wait for backup.

    However, this strategy would not work as they are not trying to arrest a criminal.

    The time that THEY wait for b/u is also time for Americans to also converge on the location.

    There simply are not enough LEOs that could respond...

    So they would have to catch people outside their dwelling ... via traffic stops but once this activity starts it would put LEOs in danger with every traffic stop (that is not directly related to trying to get a gun owner).


    And I think that nullification is the best means of forcing them to repeal all AW laws ...

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    I, and a great many others nationwide, are watching what Conn will do. I have a few questions.
    Did they send letters to those who applied for, but missed the cutoff for, a permit to retain property already legally owned by Conn. Citizens? Are they "approving" those who met the deadline? Do they know about the rest of you (names, adds, etc) who "failed" to register? You are on the sharp end Conn, good luck.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    I, and a great many others nationwide, are watching what Conn will do. I have a few questions.
    Did they send letters to those who applied for, but missed the cutoff for, a permit to retain property already legally owned by Conn. Citizens? Are they "approving" those who met the deadline? Do they know about the rest of you (names, adds, etc) who "failed" to register? You are on the sharp end Conn, good luck.
    Ok, there was some question about folks who placed into a US Post box on late 31 DEC 13 their paperwork. Now, according to CT law, CT Practice Book (online), once placed into a post box it is considered "filed"...a 31st post mark is great evidence that it was placed into a box but a 2nd of jan postmark does not answer that question with certainty.

    So the state got a handful of paperwork with the postmark of 2 JAN 14 ~ they wanted to reject all of them. Then they scratched their collective heads and figured out what I said above about when some might have been filed on the 31st but postmarked 2 JAN 14. I think now, they are still trying to make a final decision regarding the 2nd of Jan postmarked ones with dates of 31st or earlier on forms. I'm certain that they would accept them...if not, the rejected folks can appeal their denial and have a good case to press. Worst case: they ask the applicant to provide a statement saying that they mailed them on the 31st. Seems like a waste of time but its up to them.

    Then there are a handful of ones postmarked beyond 2 JAN but still with dates of 31st or before on the actual paperwork. Again, it depends on when they tossed it into a post box (not all post boxes are emptied every day).
    And there has been trial balloons sent up to just accept all that were notarized by the 31st DEC cutoff date, irrespective of when tossed into a post box or their postmark.

    And there maybe some small qty where the notary notes a date beyond 31 DEC ... so you know that the paperwork was not completed until the deadline of 31 DEC passed. More trial balloons from the state.

    Two types of records needed to be completed for the two types: mags and AW ... mags only require a declaration~a declaration does not require a notary~its the difference between a declaration & an affidavit. AW needs an affidavit...now a notary only needs to sign an affidavit (no seal is required or date is required ~ the sig of a notary is just fine).

    And to complicate matters even worse ~ some notaries refused to notarize (anti-gunners) but the law requires them to notarize whatever is put before them as long as they are happy with the person's ID (and its a document that they should be able to notarize). So, a layperson, could argue that he could not complete the application at all due to illegal activity of a notary that he took or was told to mean that ALL notaries could not complete the form. Force majure defense.

    I think that these rogue notaries are going to be a good defense for many folks IF they keep their mouth shut when approached by authorities and use it as a defense at trial.

    After all, the law requires notaries to notarize all documents that they legally can notarize. Why shouldn't a person rely on this fact and that he cannot get his records notarized when he went to a notary and was told that notaries could not notarize such an application. Or the person went to 2 notaries and both told the guy no.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallowmere View Post
    That may be the case, and I honestly hope that the legislators and police realize that this issue is an unstable powder keg. There's no denying that there are plenty of people who would have absolutely no problem mobilizing in the event that this starts to go south. I've even seen several posts by Connecticut LEOs in various forums/social media stating that they aren't even sure if they are willing to participate in a confiscation, if it comes to that.
    Quote Originally Posted by conandan View Post
    That's what I have been wondering. How many of the LEO'S will follow the order if given to go door to door and seize guns. It's easy for the bureaucrats to give that order and sign the warrants. But those who have to do it will have to make a hard choice.

    Here is the problem I see. They passed the law and now they have to enforce it. Now they know they will meet resistance in doing so but not sure to what extent. So do they risk starting a war with the citizens ?
    Or do they look like fools for passing this law and no will to enforce it ?
    This won't happen .

    Cops are not going to confiscate guns. We aren't stupid. I know if I participate in something that illegal and immorally wrong I'll probably get shot or worse have to shoot a fellow citizen in defense of my life or my partners.

    I've said this before.... and mark my words. These laws are designed to pressure them to give up the guns. IF they don't, they will used as a secondary offense or something to boost a case.

    I've asked this several times of David (who's doing real work and good work for us on this) what has been sent.

    So far... 1 letter has been sent by SOMEONE to SOME gun owners. There are many reason to believe this is fake.

    BUT I'll give you (not individual you, the internet you) for the sake of argument that one letter has been sent. Guess what.... read it. NOTHING says a words about confiscation. It lists 4 ways. Sell it. Destroy it. Send out of state. Or turn it in. PERIOD.

    Now I get it... some say "well the assumption is if you don't they will come get it."

    Sorry guys... even with the letter from you saying you had those guns on 2JAN.... nothing says you STILL have guns. So.....

    No probable cause for warrant....

    So here's what we have...

    A few guys excited about a probably fake letter that DOESNT say anything about confiscation that isn't even enough to form PC to even get a warrant to get your gun.

    And guys are willing to poke the bees nest and TRY to start a civil war over this?

    You would have to have illegal warrants based on FAKE letters (maybe) enforced by a lot of bad cops willing to die for stupid politicians.

    Umm.. negative my friends.

    And guys like that 3% dude do NOTHING but make ALL of us gun owners look very bad. He's literly giving anti all the ammunition they need to pass more dumb laws.

    So essentially its a self fufilling prophecy... make up all kinds of fake threats and then say we will fight (but don't want to I promise...) over things that aren't true.. and then when more dumb laws get passes on the threats made and reactions from made up things gets guys more wound up.... etc. Etc. Your smart enough to see where it goes.


    If I'm wrong.... quote this post in a year and I'll eat my words.

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    I'll wait for more info before I jump on the letter issue. However I don't trust any government body to act or not to act. I hope they will think long and hard before they push this issue any further. I also hope someone or some group will challenge this law in court. Then it can be found clearly unconstitutional and done away with.

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    Primus,

    I hear what your saying but.... revolution is the natural state of the human animal. Does not matter the structure of Government, it's nature is to control.

    Our nature "all of us" IS to resist. Ultimately this human condition always leads to Revolution. It happened to nation after nation for as long as there have been nations and it WILL happen to is. The only question is when?

    Tack



    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    This won't happen .

    Cops are not going to confiscate guns. We aren't stupid. I know if I participate in something that illegal and immorally wrong I'll probably get shot or worse have to shoot a fellow citizen in defense of my life or my partners.

    I've said this before.... and mark my words. These laws are designed to pressure them to give up the guns. IF they don't, they will used as a secondary offense or something to boost a case.

    I've asked this several times of David (who's doing real work and good work for us on this) what has been sent.

    So far... 1 letter has been sent by SOMEONE to SOME gun owners. There are many reason to believe this is fake.

    BUT I'll give you (not individual you, the internet you) for the sake of argument that one letter has been sent. Guess what.... read it. NOTHING says a words about confiscation. It lists 4 ways. Sell it. Destroy it. Send out of state. Or turn it in. PERIOD.

    Now I get it... some say "well the assumption is if you don't they will come get it."

    Sorry guys... even with the letter from you saying you had those guns on 2JAN.... nothing says you STILL have guns. So.....

    No probable cause for warrant....

    So here's what we have...

    A few guys excited about a probably fake letter that DOESNT say anything about confiscation that isn't even enough to form PC to even get a warrant to get your gun.

    And guys are willing to poke the bees nest and TRY to start a civil war over this?

    You would have to have illegal warrants based on FAKE letters (maybe) enforced by a lot of bad cops willing to die for stupid politicians.

    Umm.. negative my friends.

    And guys like that 3% dude do NOTHING but make ALL of us gun owners look very bad. He's literly giving anti all the ammunition they need to pass more dumb laws.

    So essentially its a self fufilling prophecy... make up all kinds of fake threats and then say we will fight (but don't want to I promise...) over things that aren't true.. and then when more dumb laws get passes on the threats made and reactions from made up things gets guys more wound up.... etc. Etc. Your smart enough to see where it goes.


    If I'm wrong.... quote this post in a year and I'll eat my words.

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    Regular Member Tackleberry1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by conandan View Post
    I'll wait for more info before I jump on the letter issue. However I don't trust any government body to act or not to act. I hope they will think long and hard before they push this issue any further. I also hope someone or some group will challenge this law in court. Then it can be found clearly unconstitutional and done away with.
    I think you must first be able to prove that you suffered loss before you can challenge the legality of a law... So... They'd have to steal your guns before you had grounds for legal action.

    Tack

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tackleberry1 View Post
    Primus,

    I hear what your saying but.... revolution is the natural state of the human animal. Does not matter the structure of Government, it's nature is to control.

    Our nature "all of us" IS to resist. Ultimately this human condition always leads to Revolution. It happened to nation after nation for as long as there have been nations and it WILL happen to is. The only question is when?

    Tack
    Tackleberry,

    Respectfully I disagree. You forget that we came from cave men who bashed women and took them to breed. Then we had slaves for a long time. Women were (still are in some places) subservient to men. Etc. Etc.

    Look closely at all of these "revolutions". Look At the reasons. Look in chronological history.

    Take ours. We revolted because we were taxed, forced to house soldiers from a foreign land, had no vote or say, etc. Etc. We were basic all slaves in a freer sense.

    Think about reasons we revolted and how many stand today....

    Sure we get taxed and don't agree. Guess what... we vote those bums in. Now we have things like the tea party willing to shut down the government to prove a point. I'd say that's an improvement....

    Voting.... civil rights.... etc. Etc. Have all vastly improved.

    Right now we are having a very tough issue with this gun thing.

    And wait for it.... goes who's causing the issue? FELLOW CITIZENS.... we call out those groups all the time. They are citizens too. There has been an incredible rise in mass shootings. That is their fuel. Who's fuel? Fellow citizens fuel.

    Yes I get it the POTUS doesn't like guns. A lot of politicians don't like guns.... but who votes for them? A HUGE liberal base that supports the laws they push.

    Your supposed to revolt against an oppressive government. There is talk of revolting against your fellow citizens not some tyrant in a foreign country.

    Also.... food for thought.... say it does kick off. Do you think those anti gun people wouldn't back the government? What if they did? What if they signed up and got issues guns? Now how would the numbers be? Would they be "wrong"? If they are also grabbing guns to fight for their views?

    See why I absolutely hate the violence idea? We are better then that as a nation. We aren't Libya or Egypt or Ukraine.

    And last thing... do not say " courts are dead or politicians are all dead its too late no recourse". Don't. We are STILL WINNING cases in court. We are still electing pro gun sheriffs and governors and senators. There are still cops who refuse to enforce these laws.

    Go ahead and be that guy that takes pop shots on our families or on traffic stops for a tail light out and see how fast that tide we have in our favor diminishes. Before you know it guys will be like the rebels in Libya pooping in the woods and hiding like rats for the rest of their life. That's NOT what our founding fathers did.


    Again... nothing directed at you tack (if I may call you that). Just a general spring board of your post and part from your PM you sent that I never had a chance to respond to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    This won't happen .

    Cops are not going to confiscate guns. We aren't stupid. I know if I participate in something that illegal and immorally wrong I'll probably get shot or worse have to shoot a fellow citizen in defense of my life or my partners.

    .

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    I would like to believe that I known many LEOs in my 33 years as one of them , a lot well not go along with the confiscation but what I have seen I am afraid. That that number has been shrinking over the last 20 years. When I first started I would say 90 percent were pro gun and pro 2nd.

    But that number has been eroded by political correctness and affirmative action being raised in urban areas with anti gun teachings.

    I am afraid that there are enough to do stupid things and actually go after law abiding citizens in the mistaken belief that they are doing the right thing.

    It makes me sad and angry that many of my fellow officers will violate their oath of office and go after fellow citizens over firearms.

    It getting well past the time where they well need to stand up for the right and take what comes.

    The ones I have trained know what is right but well they stand up and do the right thing that's a good question.

    But I know one thing they well not be able to say I didn't know better. Because they have been told what's right and what's wrong.
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    Regular Member Tackleberry1's Avatar
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    Primus,

    No need to convince me that Revolution is a last resort. Personally, I'd much rather live in peace, keep making money, and watch my children grow... However, history also proves that a disgruntled minority can and has drug the majority into the fight... and it will happen here.

    There is nothing intrinsically special or peaceful about Americans. If pushed the American animal will respond violently just like anyone else.

    We may no longer club women for breeding rights or own slaves but the instinct to protect what we have is as strong as ever.

    The only difference between the US Government and the laundry list of recently deposed governments around the world is the rapidity in which ours would fold.

    The one thing in your post that caused soda to shoot out my nose was the suggestion that anti's would pick up guns and go into harms way to defend the government... Sorry buddy but that one was hilarious! Anti's by there very nature are the same people looking to government to provide for them and solve their problems. No my friend... There would not be any "augmenting" of government ranks by a mass influx of those who's only skin in the game is the size of their handouts.

    Again, this is noting I wish to see... Simply where I believe we are headed due to my understanding of history, democracies, and revolutions.

    Tack

    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Tackleberry,

    Respectfully I disagree. You forget that we came from cave men who bashed women and took them to breed. Then we had slaves for a long time. Women were (still are in some places) subservient to men. Etc. Etc.

    Look closely at all of these "revolutions". Look At the reasons. Look in chronological history.

    Take ours. We revolted because we were taxed, forced to house soldiers from a foreign land, had no vote or say, etc. Etc. We were basic all slaves in a freer sense.

    Think about reasons we revolted and how many stand today....

    Sure we get taxed and don't agree. Guess what... we vote those bums in. Now we have things like the tea party willing to shut down the government to prove a point. I'd say that's an improvement....

    Voting.... civil rights.... etc. Etc. Have all vastly improved.

    Right now we are having a very tough issue with this gun thing.

    And wait for it.... goes who's causing the issue? FELLOW CITIZENS.... we call out those groups all the time. They are citizens too. There has been an incredible rise in mass shootings. That is their fuel. Who's fuel? Fellow citizens fuel.

    Yes I get it the POTUS doesn't like guns. A lot of politicians don't like guns.... but who votes for them? A HUGE liberal base that supports the laws they push.

    Your supposed to revolt against an oppressive government. There is talk of revolting against your fellow citizens not some tyrant in a foreign country.

    Also.... food for thought.... say it does kick off. Do you think those anti gun people wouldn't back the government? What if they did? What if they signed up and got issues guns? Now how would the numbers be? Would they be "wrong"? If they are also grabbing guns to fight for their views?

    See why I absolutely hate the violence idea? We are better then that as a nation. We aren't Libya or Egypt or Ukraine.

    And last thing... do not say " courts are dead or politicians are all dead its too late no recourse". Don't. We are STILL WINNING cases in court. We are still electing pro gun sheriffs and governors and senators. There are still cops who refuse to enforce these laws.

    Go ahead and be that guy that takes pop shots on our families or on traffic stops for a tail light out and see how fast that tide we have in our favor diminishes. Before you know it guys will be like the rebels in Libya pooping in the woods and hiding like rats for the rest of their life. That's NOT what our founding fathers did.


    Again... nothing directed at you tack (if I may call you that). Just a general spring board of your post and part from your PM you sent that I never had a chance to respond to.

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Tackleberry1; 02-28-2014 at 10:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    There has been an incredible rise in mass shootings.
    ?? I doubt that this is factual ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    ...There has been an incredible rise in mass shootings. That is their fuel....
    No, there has been an incredible rise in the politicizing, nay, romanticising (to crazy people that do them) of mass shootings.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    ?? I doubt that this is factual ....
    I'll take back "incredible" but the rest stands. Put a different word.... noticeable, staggering, etc.

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    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    I'll take back "incredible" but the rest stands. Put a different word.... noticeable, staggering, etc.

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    or...maybe...information available over the internet or due to internet?

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    I came across this in wikipedia.... judge for yourself my friend...

    You see a clear rise at the very least. Look at the reasons and incidents they called "school shootings" back in the day.

    1853- shot the teacher
    1859- suicide


    1871- teacher shot in front of students
    1890- shot a kid in the face...

    as it gets into the 20th century, look at many start to occur per year and look at the actual incidents. Also, now it's EVERY year, with no breaks in time.

    Lets randomly pick a time... 1960's?
    1960-3
    1961-2
    62-0
    63-0
    64-0
    65-0
    66-4
    67-0
    68-4 - one of these was actually police shooting into a crowd because they thought someone was shooting at them.
    69-4
    70-2

    total=19 so average? 2?

    ok compare it to 2000
    2000-4
    2001-4
    2002-3
    2003-3
    2004-4
    2005-3
    2006-7
    2007-4
    2008-9
    2009-6
    2010-10

    so total=57

    Now this is NOT any kind of endorsement or cry for anything or even an opinion. I'm merely putting out the info. Take it or leave it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_..._United_States

    Read this. Seriously look at the actual incidents. You'll see the real difference. I don't even care about the numbers. Hell if 10 teachers got killed by scorn lovers at school and we called it a school shooting oh well. But if kids start shooting other kids or worse adults start shooting kids, that tells you something. What it tells you I have no idea.

    Also, I'm sure someone may be able to post some article from a blog that says the numbers have gone down or something with a nice spin about something. But keep in mind, there will be propaganda in there. This is just straight numbers, dates and details. No spin.

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    OK, do not use wiki for this type of analysis .... I have found it not useful for this purpose.

    Ex..2002, school shootings just in EU

    19 FEB Freising, Germany ... 2 killed
    26 APR Erfurt, Germany ..... 16 killed
    29 APR Vlasenica, Bosnia-Herzegovina ... 1 teacher killed

    So the US is no different than anywhere else ... and killings that are not shootings are also available and just as bad really

    The issue is not guns. The issue is not an explosion of violence. The issue is that these incidents are being recorded better.

    Its like when we find a new species .. wow, look at that population explosion ! Last year we had zero !

    What is better known and better documented is the killing of children by governments .. oddly enough, anti-gunners never want to report these numbers (they are still killed by guns too). Look up those numbers and tell me which numbers are more appalling. I'd rather lose 1000 kids over 20 years to crazy folks doing crazy things than 1,000,000 because the people could not defend themselves from their own gov'ts. The argument is not won on # of people/children killed ~ gov'ts kill more folks through cleansing, etc. Why they call it cleansing is a mystery-its dirty work.
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 03-01-2014 at 03:54 AM.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    OK, do not use wiki for this type of analysis .... I have found it not useful for this purpose.

    Ex..2002, school shootings just in EU

    19 FEB Freising, Germany ... 2 killed
    26 APR Erfurt, Germany ..... 16 killed
    29 APR Vlasenica, Bosnia-Herzegovina ... 1 teacher killed

    So the US is no different than anywhere else ... and killings that are not shootings are also available and just as bad really

    The issue is not guns. The issue is not an explosion of violence. The issue is that these incidents are being recorded better.

    Its like when we find a new species .. wow, look at that population explosion ! Last year we had zero !

    What is better known and better documented is the killing of children by governments .. oddly enough, anti-gunners never want to report these numbers (they are still killed by guns too). Look up those numbers and tell me which numbers are more appalling. I'd rather lose 1000 kids over 20 years to crazy folks doing crazy things than 1,000,000 because the people could not defend themselves from their own gov'ts. The argument is not won on # of people/children killed ~ gov'ts kill more folks through cleansing, etc. Why they call it cleansing is a mystery-its dirty work.
    I'm.not sure what your saying David. I wasn't implying it was better or worse then other countries. Only that it's on the rise.

    You can't attribute that high of an increase to "reporting". We've had the television and radio and papers for his long? At least a hundred years. I agree SOME may be due to way things are reported... but its crystal clear there is a rise in type and numbers.

    Again.. I'm.not assigning it to guns. Is it society? Copy cats? Because the media reports so much now? Is it a a fad now? I don't know.

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    .. but its crystal clear there is a rise in type and numbers.
    No its not crystal clear to me .. back in the 50's neighborhoods would hide all kinds of crime stats from getting out...looks bad to pronounce that you have a child rapist living in the neighborhood.

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