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Retaliation against CT Legislators who voted in favor of gun registration

Primus

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I came across this in wikipedia.... judge for yourself my friend...

You see a clear rise at the very least. Look at the reasons and incidents they called "school shootings" back in the day.

1853- shot the teacher
1859- suicide


1871- teacher shot in front of students
1890- shot a kid in the face...

as it gets into the 20th century, look at many start to occur per year and look at the actual incidents. Also, now it's EVERY year, with no breaks in time.

Lets randomly pick a time... 1960's?
1960-3
1961-2
62-0
63-0
64-0
65-0
66-4
67-0
68-4 - one of these was actually police shooting into a crowd because they thought someone was shooting at them.
69-4
70-2

total=19 so average? 2?

ok compare it to 2000
2000-4
2001-4
2002-3
2003-3
2004-4
2005-3
2006-7
2007-4
2008-9
2009-6
2010-10

so total=57

Now this is NOT any kind of endorsement or cry for anything or even an opinion. I'm merely putting out the info. Take it or leave it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shootings_in_the_United_States

Read this. Seriously look at the actual incidents. You'll see the real difference. I don't even care about the numbers. Hell if 10 teachers got killed by scorn lovers at school and we called it a school shooting oh well. But if kids start shooting other kids or worse adults start shooting kids, that tells you something. What it tells you I have no idea.

Also, I'm sure someone may be able to post some article from a blog that says the numbers have gone down or something with a nice spin about something. But keep in mind, there will be propaganda in there. This is just straight numbers, dates and details. No spin.
 

davidmcbeth

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OK, do not use wiki for this type of analysis .... I have found it not useful for this purpose.

Ex..2002, school shootings just in EU

19 FEB Freising, Germany ... 2 killed
26 APR Erfurt, Germany ..... 16 killed
29 APR Vlasenica, Bosnia-Herzegovina ... 1 teacher killed

So the US is no different than anywhere else ... and killings that are not shootings are also available and just as bad really

The issue is not guns. The issue is not an explosion of violence. The issue is that these incidents are being recorded better.

Its like when we find a new species .. wow, look at that population explosion ! Last year we had zero !

What is better known and better documented is the killing of children by governments .. oddly enough, anti-gunners never want to report these numbers (they are still killed by guns too). Look up those numbers and tell me which numbers are more appalling. I'd rather lose 1000 kids over 20 years to crazy folks doing crazy things than 1,000,000 because the people could not defend themselves from their own gov'ts. The argument is not won on # of people/children killed ~ gov'ts kill more folks through cleansing, etc. Why they call it cleansing is a mystery-its dirty work.
 
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Primus

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OK, do not use wiki for this type of analysis .... I have found it not useful for this purpose.

Ex..2002, school shootings just in EU

19 FEB Freising, Germany ... 2 killed
26 APR Erfurt, Germany ..... 16 killed
29 APR Vlasenica, Bosnia-Herzegovina ... 1 teacher killed

So the US is no different than anywhere else ... and killings that are not shootings are also available and just as bad really

The issue is not guns. The issue is not an explosion of violence. The issue is that these incidents are being recorded better.

Its like when we find a new species .. wow, look at that population explosion ! Last year we had zero !

What is better known and better documented is the killing of children by governments .. oddly enough, anti-gunners never want to report these numbers (they are still killed by guns too). Look up those numbers and tell me which numbers are more appalling. I'd rather lose 1000 kids over 20 years to crazy folks doing crazy things than 1,000,000 because the people could not defend themselves from their own gov'ts. The argument is not won on # of people/children killed ~ gov'ts kill more folks through cleansing, etc. Why they call it cleansing is a mystery-its dirty work.

I'm.not sure what your saying David. I wasn't implying it was better or worse then other countries. Only that it's on the rise.

You can't attribute that high of an increase to "reporting". We've had the television and radio and papers for his long? At least a hundred years. I agree SOME may be due to way things are reported... but its crystal clear there is a rise in type and numbers.

Again.. I'm.not assigning it to guns. Is it society? Copy cats? Because the media reports so much now? Is it a a fad now? I don't know.

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davidmcbeth

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.. but its crystal clear there is a rise in type and numbers.

No its not crystal clear to me .. back in the 50's neighborhoods would hide all kinds of crime stats from getting out...looks bad to pronounce that you have a child rapist living in the neighborhood.
 

Primus

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No its not crystal clear to me .. back in the 50's neighborhoods would hide all kinds of crime stats from getting out...looks bad to pronounce that you have a child rapist living in the neighborhood.

I agree. Again, that's why I said look at the types of crimes and not the numbers. Think the type of victim. At some point two things changed and in sure its those incidents for anyone who wanted to actually read them.

At some point random kids became the target not just teachers OE so gle kids they had issues with. And at some point in time the incidents became larger and larger. No more shoot one kid because he took your lunch money, now its crazy student/adult shoots 10 random kids then himself.

Maybe there are more unreported cases, but until someone can come forward and be like "hey that's false in 63 there was 58 kids killed in 10 incidents in x town" which would affect the trend, the trend still stands.

Again, not contributing it to guns. There's a whole bunch if factors. Everything from methods of psych treatment, to crappy family bases now, to violent video games, to stupid media who plaster these idiots all over like they are stars.

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davidmcbeth

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Maybe when we blame an object used by a criminal as the reason for the criminal using an object the criminal thinks its the object's fault and not his.

Like the phrase "the devil made me do it"
 

MAC702

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...This is just straight numbers, dates and details. No spin.

Which is why it is pretty much meaningless, though.

Population rise over the same time.
Culture of poor parenting, violence as entertainment filling the void.
Rise in mental health issues (from several reasons, including depression of a world more hectic than ever)
Rise in infamy of such incidents (leading to desire for crazy people to do them)
Rise in number of victims who are unarmed (for cultural or legal reasons)
Etc.

By the way, don't forget 1927.
 

MSG Laigaie

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This won't happen .

Cops are not going to confiscate guns. We aren't stupid. I know if I participate in something that illegal and immorally wrong I'll probably get shot or worse have to shoot a fellow citizen in defense of my life or my partners.

The number of people killed each year does not mean a great deal. In that, I mean one shooting in a small population is much more significant than a hundred shootings in a very large population. Lies...Damn Lies... Statistics. You all sound like politicians trying to make the numbers work for you.

To get a little closer to the original thread line........

So, Primus, This has already happened, remember that big rain we had down south and LEOs and Military went door to door? Precedent set.

I do believe you when you say YOU will not confiscate weapons from LACs. I do not trust your "partners" to do the same. You also seem to be stating that you would "shoot a fellow Citizen" to defend those who would, and have, gone door to door. Sad.

It seems the "gov" in Conn. is going to use "background checks" to locate those who did not declare their weapon/mags. I thought they got rid of them?
 

Primus

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The number of people killed each year does not mean a great deal. In that, I mean one shooting in a small population is much more significant than a hundred shootings in a very large population. Lies...Damn Lies... Statistics. You all sound like politicians trying to make the numbers work for you.

To get a little closer to the original thread line........

So, Primus, This has already happened, remember that big rain we had down south and LEOs and Military went door to door? Precedent set.

I do believe you when you say YOU will not confiscate weapons from LACs. I do not trust your "partners" to do the same. You also seem to be stating that you would "shoot a fellow Citizen" to defend those who would, and have, gone door to door. Sad.

It seems the "gov" in Conn. is going to use "background checks" to locate those who did not declare their weapon/mags. I thought they got rid of them?

Back to op....

Wasn't the confiscations deemed illegal during Katrina? I don't know the exact case law but pretty sure I've seen on here guys talk about the aftermath and it was ruled that's a no go even in a state of emergency

And since you brought it up.... state of emergency stuff is completely different then passing a law (that hasn't even been challenged yet) then enforcing said law (the methods aren't determined yet). So no, there isn't a precedent set yet. Unless you think CT has massive looting going on from a massive natural disaster?

Listen its real simple about who to shoot and not shoot. If you shoot at me I shoot back. If you attempt to shoot at me I shoot first. That's pretty basic. If I'm on a traffic stop and I get shot at because some d bag read on the internet that all cops were confiscating guns, then game on. I'm not going to let him shoot me and say "oh its ok he was misinformed from the internet". Same for my fellow workers. If they are on a traffic stop and get shot at I'm coming to their aid.

This should apply to all citizens. If someone shoots at you you shoot back and defend yourself. Im a citizen too, so I will defend myself.

These "door to door" hypothetical is just that. Hypotheticals that are just as bad at fear mongering as the antis saying "oh any guy carrying a gun is crazy and they will shoot everyone call the cops!" Instead its "the cops are evil and crazy and are coming to take all our guns and oppress us!"

Both sides are completely wrong, based on little to no legitimate information, and pushed by a few to enrage the many.



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OC for ME

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Back to op....

Wasn't the confiscations deemed illegal during Katrina? I don't know the exact case law but pretty sure I've seen on here guys talk about the aftermath and it was ruled that's a no go even in a state of emergency

And since you brought it up.... state of emergency stuff is completely different then passing a law (that hasn't even been challenged yet) then enforcing said law (the methods aren't determined yet). So no, there isn't a precedent set yet. Unless you think CT has massive looting going on from a massive natural disaster?

Listen its real simple about who to shoot and not shoot. If you shoot at me I shoot back. If you attempt to shoot at me I shoot first. That's pretty basic. If I'm on a traffic stop and I get shot at because some d bag read on the internet that all cops were confiscating guns, then game on. I'm not going to let him shoot me and say "oh its ok he was misinformed from the internet". Same for my fellow workers. If they are on a traffic stop and get shot at I'm coming to their aid.

This should apply to all citizens. If someone shoots at you you shoot back and defend yourself. Im a citizen too, so I will defend myself.

These "door to door" hypothetical is just that. Hypotheticals that are just as bad at fear mongering as the antis saying "oh any guy carrying a gun is crazy and they will shoot everyone call the cops!" Instead its "the cops are evil and crazy and are coming to take all our guns and oppress us!"

Both sides are completely wrong, based on little to no legitimate information, and pushed by a few to enrage the many.

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The Katrina incidents were done extra legal. The MC folks may correct me, but I think NC has a law that permitted guns to be confiscated if they were beyond the threshold of the home. I think that law got repealed or changed. MO specifically does not permit a state of emergency to infringe the lawful carry of a firearm.

I suspect that the confiscations, if they occur, will not be contested by the citizen. There is too much to lose. But, they are always one in the crowd. Sadly, as has been mentioned, there will be cops that will enforce the law and confiscate unregistered guns if ordered to do so.
 

F350

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SOP with the standard 9-man SWAT teams is that if they run into gunshots they take cover and wait for backup.

However, this strategy would not work as they are not trying to arrest a criminal.

The time that THEY wait for b/u is also time for Americans to also converge on the location.

There simply are not enough LEOs that could respond...

So they would have to catch people outside their dwelling ... via traffic stops but once this activity starts it would put LEOs in danger with every traffic stop (that is not directly related to trying to get a gun owner).


And I think that nullification is the best means of forcing them to repeal all AW laws ...

I would think that if that started, just driving a marked squad on patrol could be hazardous. To paraphrase Henry Bowman "After the first one; all the rest are free".
 

davidmcbeth

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The Katrina incidents were done extra legal. The MC folks may correct me, but I think NC has a law that permitted guns to be confiscated if they were beyond the threshold of the home. I think that law got repealed or changed. MO specifically does not permit a state of emergency to infringe the lawful carry of a firearm.

I suspect that the confiscations, if they occur, will not be contested by the citizen. There is too much to lose. But, they are always one in the crowd. Sadly, as has been mentioned, there will be cops that will enforce the law and confiscate unregistered guns if ordered to do so.

The Katrina thefts were done extra illegal -- but the court (after a successful lawsuit) required folks to prove that they were the owners (as no receipts were given) via sales invoices etc. So many still have not gotten their guns back.

When it comes to my guns .. I place ZERO confidence in any gov't official or agency.
 

MSG Laigaie

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Back to op....

Wasn't the confiscations deemed illegal during Katrina?

And since you brought it up.... state of emergency stuff is completely different then passing a law (that hasn't even been challenged yet)


These "door to door" hypothetical is just that........

It was illegal during Katrina.....it still happened. Some believed they were following the (illegal) law. Bad. Some just went along with it. Bad. Some actually knew it was wrong, but did it anyway. Very Bad.

State of emergency, illegal law, governors whim, I do not care what your excuse will be. The law HAS been challenged by the mere fact that so many Citizens have decided their Rights under the Document supersede the "law of the land". They have not applied for permission or turned the new "contraband" over to the government. What will the "law enforcement" people do now that they have this many people standing up to, what they believe is "bad law"?

This will play out soon in Conn.


Again....."they" have already done the door to door thing. Say it....katrina.
 

Primus

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The Katrina thefts were done extra illegal -- but the court (after a successful lawsuit) required folks to prove that they were the owners (as no receipts were given) via sales invoices etc. So many still have not gotten their guns back.

When it comes to my guns .. I place ZERO confidence in any gov't official or agency.

Thanks for the correction. I thought it was overturned in some fashion.

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Rusty Young Man

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This won't happen .

Cops are not going to confiscate guns. We aren't stupid. I know if I participate in something that illegal and immorally wrong I'll probably get shot or worse have to shoot a fellow citizen in defense of my life or my partners.

I've said this before.... and mark my words. These laws are designed to pressure them to give up the guns. IF they don't, they will used as a secondary offense or something to boost a case.

I've asked this several times of David (who's doing real work and good work for us on this) what has been sent.

So far... 1 letter has been sent by SOMEONE to SOME gun owners. There are many reason to believe this is fake.

BUT I'll give you (not individual you, the internet you) for the sake of argument that one letter has been sent. Guess what.... read it. NOTHING says a words about confiscation. It lists 4 ways. Sell it. Destroy it. Send out of state. Or turn it in. PERIOD.

Now I get it... some say "well the assumption is if you don't they will come get it."

Sorry guys... even with the letter from you saying you had those guns on 2JAN.... nothing says you STILL have guns. So.....

No probable cause for warrant....

So here's what we have...

A few guys excited about a probably fake letter that DOESNT say anything about confiscation that isn't even enough to form PC to even get a warrant to get your gun.

And guys are willing to poke the bees nest and TRY to start a civil war over this?

You would have to have illegal warrants based on FAKE letters (maybe) enforced by a lot of bad cops willing to die for stupid politicians.

Umm.. negative my friends.

And guys like that 3% dude do NOTHING but make ALL of us gun owners look very bad. He's literly giving anti all the ammunition they need to pass more dumb laws.

So essentially its a self fufilling prophecy... make up all kinds of fake threats and then say we will fight (but don't want to I promise...) over things that aren't true.. and then when more dumb laws get passes on the threats made and reactions from made up things gets guys more wound up.... etc. Etc. Your smart enough to see where it goes.


If I'm wrong.... quote this post in a year and I'll eat my words.

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The creation of these dumb laws is entirely the fault of the antis. You can't blame someone standing up for their Rights as the reason those Rights are being curtailed by an ever-increasing government bureaucracy.
If anything, another Revolution would be better in the long run: without any single example of a free republic on this Earth, people may forget what Freedom and Liberty once meant.

On a related note: the antis might not know how to use guns right now, but they've shown an incredible talent for being submissive to groupthink opinions, and carrying out "orders" unquestioningly.

One last bit: if I am able to quote you in one year, two years, or five years, I would be glad the infrastructure for doing so remained in place (maybe).

Add.:
Not advocating violence, far from it. As a matter of fact, I wish I could go my entire life without ever having to defend myself from someone wishing to do harm to my loved ones or I. I would love to be known as "crazy gun owner who thought the government wouldn't go back to protecting the people's Rights and Freedoms". But there is one saying that I believe applies to all gun owners who remember the primary reason for owning guns in the first place:
"I train, in earnest, to do what I hope, in earnest, I never have to do."
 
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rcawdor57

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Have We All Forgotten About Boston?

It was illegal during Katrina.....it still happened. Some believed they were following the (illegal) law. Bad. Some just went along with it. Bad. Some actually knew it was wrong, but did it anyway. Very Bad.

State of emergency, illegal law, governors whim, I do not care what your excuse will be. The law HAS been challenged by the mere fact that so many Citizens have decided their Rights under the Document supersede the "law of the land". They have not applied for permission or turned the new "contraband" over to the government. What will the "law enforcement" people do now that they have this many people standing up to, what they believe is "bad law"?

This will play out soon in Conn.


Again....."they" have already done the door to door thing. Say it....katrina.

Don't forget about Boston either. I don't know if any firearms were taken but the "cops" in battle gear went door to door after the Boston bombing forcing people out of their homes at gunpoint to perform completely illegal searches of their homes. ANY illegal actions by police are still illegal.
 
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