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Thread: RAS while carrying

  1. #1
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    RAS while carrying

    If you are open carrying and a cop sees you get into a motor vehicle, is that RAS?

    If a LEO sees you go from open carry to concealed when you put a jacket on is that RAS?

    A citizen reports that they saw your concealed carry gun, Does LE have RAS to ask for your CPL?

    And finally you are open carrying in a PFZ would that give LEO RAS?

    RAS of a crime to detain and require ID
    Last edited by Raggs; 03-01-2014 at 07:29 PM. Reason: clarification
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  2. #2
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Before your question can really be answered, you must ask the complete question, "articulable suspicion .......(of what)?"
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 03-01-2014 at 07:15 PM.

  3. #3
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    If you are open carrying and a cop sees you get into a motor vehicle, is that RAS?

    If a LEO sees you go from open carry to concealed when you put a jacket on is that RAS?

    A citizen reports that they saw your concealed carry gun, Does LE have RAS to ask for your CPL?

    And finally you are open carrying in a PFZ would that give LEO RAS?

    RAS of a crime to detain and require ID
    You mean require to see a license to conceal, not just ID right?. In Michigan there is no requirement to produce a generic ID even with RAS.

    This is an old argument and was discussed on this site several years ago. There were good arguments for either way. Most likely the general consensus was yes it is enough for RAS. I argued that no it was not BTW.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    You mean require to see a license to conceal, not just ID right?. In Michigan there is no requirement to produce a generic ID even with RAS.

    This is an old argument and was discussed on this site several years ago. There were good arguments for either way. Most likely the general consensus was yes it is enough for RAS. I argued that no it was not BTW.
    Figured it would be a good discussion, doubt any great truths will come out.
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  5. #5
    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Before your question can really be answered, you must ask the complete question, "articulable suspicion .......(of what)?"
    Well consider that if it's vague it gives an officer a lot of latitude to interpret the action any way they like (i.e. to their advantage).

    So, in some states the law is poorly written that allows this on-the-fly interpretation. Any state with 'must disclose' laws is an example (the cop can lie and say you failed to disclose).

  6. #6
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    Well consider that if it's vague it gives an officer a lot of latitude to interpret the action any way they like (i.e. to their advantage).

    So, in some states the law is poorly written that allows this on-the-fly interpretation. Any state with 'must disclose' laws is an example (the cop can lie and say you failed to disclose).
    Exactly so. So when someone asks, "is ________ a reasonable suspicion?" you have to ask "Is _______ a reasonable suspicion of what, arson? bank robbery? child molestation? disorderly conduct? embezzlement? forgery? identity theft?"

    In a state where it is generally legal to carry a firearm, then being seen carrying a firearm is as reasonably suspicious of illegal conduct as seeing someone drive a car in a state where driving a car is generally legal. *Some states vary of course, such as Illinois where carrying is generally illegal or Kentucky(?) where carrying a firearm is illegal and the license is not only a defense against the crime but must, by law, be presented upon request of law enforcement.*

  7. #7
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    If I may suggest, read this thread on Officer.com where RAS in regards to someone openly carrying is discussed, especially post #12.

  8. #8
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Would probably go down like this:

    http://www.fedagent.com/columns/case...pdate-01-09-14
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    If I may suggest, read this thread on Officer.com where RAS in regards to someone openly carrying is discussed, especially post #12.
    I read that thread and am left with no doubt what so ever where the "us vs them" attitude is coming from.

    I heard someone once say that many doctors think M.D. stands for "Miracle Doer".... It would appear from the comments in the thread linked to that some officers think COP stands for "Controller Of People"...

    That isn't cop bashing... it is a comment on what I read after following the link in the post I quoted.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  10. #10
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    I don't know if it's RAS or not but, a couple of years ago a Leslie cop showed up at my Mason home following up on a call from a citizen that saw me get into my car while OCing. When he was informed that I have a CPL, he dropped it right there. He didn't even ask to see my license.


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  11. #11
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Gay Al View Post
    I don't know if it's RAS or not but, a couple of years ago a Leslie cop showed up at my Mason home following up on a call from a citizen that saw me get into my car while OCing. When he was informed that I have a CPL, he dropped it right there. He didn't even ask to see my license.
    Sounds like he found a morally acceptable excuse not to investigate a misdemeanor he wasn't witness to and didn't have probable cause to arrest for (assuming you wouldn't blab outright that you got in your car while OC'ing without a CPL.)

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