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Thread: Armed and ready for a confrontation... with my pastor

  1. #1
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    Armed and ready for a confrontation... with my pastor

    Back Story: Started attending a new church about 6 weeks ago. Got some sideways stares but nothing significant and people have been friendly.

    Yesterday my wife finds out that for the first week we were the talk of the church. Even after the pastor said "We're an open carry church."

    The church had its annual partners meeting this past Wednesday (their word for members) and today after the service 2 things happened...
    1. He invited us to their new members meeting on Saturday and
    2. Said he would be drafting a carry policy for the church and asked if I would provide some input.

    He said he gets it but doesn't want just anyone to carry. He said I was fine because I was a MP and my wife was ok, well because she's with me but he doesn't want some random joe carrying not knowing what, if any training they've had. Like requiring a CHP, etc.

    I'm sure he's getting some push from the members and wants to strike a balance and I think its great he's giving me the opportunity to provide input but I want to have ideas, facts and statistics to aid me in my presentation.

    My position is the 2nd is just as important as the first and the no requirement to have any prerequisites to practice religion... But I'd like to show stats (or a lack there of) of OCers in general. I would like a no policy approach but at the very least be able to limit the policy to mirror state law.

    Any help would be greatly appreciated.
    Thanks

  2. #2
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    I have carried concealed in Church since it was legal in my state.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  3. #3
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    The church should not allow commies to be members...that will solve the issue all together.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    You could mention the following:
    Only with OC can anyone know for certain who is armed
    OC is, generally, a deterrent to those that wish to cause harm

    One can simply have a sign of instruction that goes something like this:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Violent criminals don't tend to use holsters to conceal since that associates them with cops
    If they don't want "just anyone" carrying, it may be due to some bad apples in the congregation, in which case those bad apples should be talked to, since they need instruction the most
    If someone is unstable while carrying a gun, they are unstable without it
    Last edited by Rusty Young Man; 03-02-2014 at 02:26 PM.
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke

  5. #5
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Ask him if Lay Preachers offering prayers should be outlawed because they may not be trained properly.

  6. #6
    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    you might want to remind him that Jesus ordered us to be armed too.

    i am always under the impression too, that anyone carrying where it can be seen is the only honest way to carry

    BTW, i probably wouldn't want you to carry because you are an MP
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
    - unknown

    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

  7. #7
    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
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    I think the open carry policy for the church should mirror state law.

    What did he mean by, "We're an open carry church" ?
    Last edited by DrMark; 03-02-2014 at 08:12 PM.

  8. #8
    Regular Member HPmatt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    I have carried concealed in Church since it was legal in my state.
    Ditto.

    No OC in TX, but at least your Pastor invited your input even though you've only been there 6 weeks.
    Of course if you CC'd who'd know you needed any type of a policy.
    Perhaps a don't ask - don't tell policy - for CC.

    If you're going OC, how about require all the deacons to OC, and sunday school teachers.
    And perhaps CC for your Pastors and choir members w robes.
    Active or retired Armed Forces & police(wo)men. Also fathers and mothers that have kids attending church.
    No parents in process of divorce, and no one that voted for Obama.

    If you guys have bluegrass bands sometimes, how about everyone carries pistols and long guns - kids can bring cap guns.
    “Men live without other security than what their own strength and their own invention shall furnish them"
    -Thomas Hobbes 1651

  9. #9
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Might also ask him what kind of training a CHiPper gets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrMark View Post
    I think the open carry policy for the church should mirror state law.

    What did he mean by, "We're an open carry church" ?
    On our first or second visit my wife mentioned how glad she was the firearms hadn't been an issue (as the church we ultimately choose as home has to accept us as we are) and he said it like they were very pro 2A. I don't believe the issue is his but other members...

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Might also ask him what kind of training a CHiPper gets.
    Maybe I'll pay the 20 bucks for him to take the online class and let him see for himself exactly how low the bar for a CHP is, with respect to training.. I guess its a false security thinking they've had a background check recently... lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by papa bear View Post
    you might want to remind him that Jesus ordered us to be armed too.

    i am always under the impression too, that anyone carrying where it can be seen is the only honest way to carry

    BTW, i probably wouldn't want you to carry because you are an MP
    I was leaning towards the... where would we be if David had been told to leave his rocks and slings at home if he didn't have a certificate of training...


    Oh and I'm actually an USAF Security Forces Flight Chief so I'm not an actual MP (Army or Marine).. I actually get paid to think... :-)
    Last edited by AFCop; 03-02-2014 at 10:37 PM.

  13. #13
    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Looks like you've encountered a situation where not all conservatives fell the same way about all conservative issues.

    This situation seems to be an interesting twist on stances taken on certain issues in that one side feels that the gov't is infringing on their (perceived) right to follow some religious dogma or other vs a religious organization (your church) feels obligated to proscribe your allowed civil behavior (carry) under certain conditions imposed by it. I assume that their positions other controversial issues align with yours, else why join the congregation? Of course, the church is a private organization and owns/controls private property, so the congregation can impose any rule they wish.

    The following statute burdens you only as far as the gov't is concerned. It does not burden the church to accept your argument.
    18.2-283. Carrying dangerous weapon to place of religious worship.
    If any person carry any gun, pistol, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.

    You could (probably should) solicit input from members who might feel as you do. Perhaps a "town hall" meeting might be in order. I'm guessing that many in your new congregation accept the notion that the 2A means what it says, but shy away from actually exercising their rights because they'd feel awkward.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

  14. #14
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Because bad people do bad things, even in houses of worship.

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/...sive-list.html


    Just last month, the federal government stepped in with a first-ever report outlining security recommendations for houses of worship. The 38-page plan, released just days after a man was shot and wounded during a Catholic Mass in Salt Lake City, advises congregations to plan for potential emergencies, including what police call random "active shooter" situations. Among the advice offered by the federal government: run, hide or, as a last resort, fight.
    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...-grow/2495241/
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  15. #15
    Regular Member HPmatt's Avatar
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    This was the one I remember here in the Dallas/Ft Worth area.
    In 1999, in the evening there was a youth event at the Ft Worth Wedgwood Baptist Church where a number of kids were killed.
    http://www.wedgwoodbc.org/Wedgwood-Shooting

    Not a church, but in 1991, there was the massacre down the road in Temple/Killeen at the Luby's cafeteria - 50 people shot, 23 killed.
    http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/7048182.html
    Want to say this was one of the precipitating factors for CHL in Texas - Gov Ann Richards (D) vowed to veto if it was ever passed by the Legislature and GWBush-43 vowed to pass it if elected Governor.
    “Men live without other security than what their own strength and their own invention shall furnish them"
    -Thomas Hobbes 1651

  16. #16
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AFCop View Post
    Maybe I'll pay the 20 bucks for him to take the online class and let him see for himself exactly how low the bar for a CHP is, with respect to training.. I guess its a false security thinking they've had a background check recently... lol
    If he ever took a hunter safety class...he's already done all he needs to do.

  17. #17
    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    Without lending an opinion, I suggest to you "Guns in the Workplace: A Manual for Private Sector Employers and Employees" as a quick read that presents policies that you could adapt as necessary. I have a copy somewhere, but it is also available here at amazon.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

  18. #18
    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    You might find out who the naysayers are or those who are uncomfortable and take them to the range.... I've found people are a lot less stressed by things they have some experience with. Mention it to the Pastor or at the meeting.

  19. #19
    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    And of course, there is always the "Home Worship" option, with assistance from various TV or On-line evangelicals.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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  21. #21
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    Once again a bar is set and OCDO delivers... great advise and examples. Much appreciated, please don't stop... I will start to compile my presentation. Of course, a report on the back end will be provided.

  22. #22
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AFCop View Post
    Once again a bar is set and OCDO delivers... great advise and examples. Much appreciated, please don't stop... I will start to compile my presentation. Of course, a report on the back end will be provided.
    Colorado Shooting Highlights Churches' New Emphasis on Security

    The woman, an armed volunteer, shot and killed the gunman. New Life's pastor credited her with saving 100 lives.
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/2007/12...s-on-security/

    A congregation at prayer, hearing God’s Word preached and responding by singing God’s Word should be the safest place in the world. According to a story in Christianity Today, however, in 2012 it was not. Security experts describe them as “soft targets,” places where criminals (whether the insane, thieves, or those seeking to settle a score) can expect to find little or no resistance.
    http://heidelblog.net/2013/07/deaths...se-36-in-2012/
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  23. #23
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Reading through today's replies, a thought came to mind, which saddens me, but there it was nonetheless.

    Is this an issue of income for the church? Are the nay-sayers big givers? I hate for it to be the case, but all too often, this does influence policy in churches. You may or may not have any information on that possible pressure for the pastor, but it may not be bad to very softly slip in - perhaps with the examples of how being completely unarmed has resulted in tragedy in the past - that plain and simple, it's the RIGHT thing to do, even if there is a cost to do so.

    Many years ago in my church, we were clearly led to change some of the ways we did things. It was not a close call, the entire church leadership was behind the changes. We had a meeting during which a small number of self-proclaimed representatives delivered an ultimatum, if we implemented the changes, they would leave. It was one of those "is this a trick question?" kind of moments... with such clear direction, what were we supposed to do, stop all progress and deny our divine leading to accommodate a handful of folks who enjoyed the status quo? Of course not. Our response was, thanks for sharing, we hope you can find a church home where you are more comfortable...

    Just some thoughts, hope not directly applicable to your situation.

    TFred

  24. #24
    Regular Member independence's Avatar
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    The perception is that they can control who carries through various administrative policies. That may control who open carries, but who knows who will be concealing in violation of policy? Are they going frisk everyone on the way in as the prelude music is playing? My point is that the policy will only limit the good guys and will do nothing to restrict the bad guys or even the stupid guys. The stupid guys who supposedly have no training would still be able to conceal and there is nothing anyone could do about it, short of metal detectors in the foyer.

    Sent from an app instead of a browser simply because browsers on mobile devices are incapable of basic usability by design so that people can sell apps.
    Last edited by independence; 03-04-2014 at 02:08 AM.
    Open means open...

  25. #25
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by independence View Post
    The perception is that they can control who carries through various administrative policies. That may control who open carries, but who knows who will be concealing in violation of policy? Are they going frisk everyone on the way in as the prelude music is playing? My point is that the policy will only limit the good guys and will do nothing to restrict the bad guys or even the stupid guys. The stupid guys who supposedly have no training would still be able to conceal and there is nothing anyone could do about it, short of metal detectors in the foyer.

    Sent from an app instead of a browser simply because browsers on mobile devices are incapable of basic usability by design so that people can sell apps.
    To the point.

    That which is not seen, is unseen until it is not.

    Nothing changes, until it changes - by then a do-over is not possible.

    Get it right the first time.....it is much cheaper that way.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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