Armed and ready for a confrontation... with my pastor

Liberty-or-Death said:

Sorry "OC for ME", not ignoring your inquiries, I'm just not getting into a bible debate here. I'll let you call me a scripture-twister if it helps you in some way.

Click to expand...

Never claimed that you twisted scripture, read my posts.

Liberty-or-Death said:

As a shepherd of the church, I'm entrusted with the care and safety of the flock.

Click to expand...

Please elaborate on this. Does this trust extend beyond the confines of the church? It seems that a church member who does not have permission to be armed, in your church, is compelled to rely upon you, and/or others, for their protection. As an aside, a appeal to authority is viewed in a negative light.

Liberty-or-Death said:

We prayerfully consider concerns and apply biblical principles, asking God for wisdom. The flock either obeys their shepherd's leading, or they argue and either see the wisdom and capitulate, or they argue and then wander off on their own, looking for a more attractive shepherd.

Click to expand...

The church is private property and the church has the prerogative as to which of its members it will permit to be armed.

My way or the highway.

Liberty-or-Death said:

Like I said, I would not turn it into a test of fellowship, though they might.

Click to expand...

A church that does not recognize their member's fundamental (God given) right to defend themselves, and their own, is not a church I would support.

I stand by my assessment, the OP needs to find another church if the preacher does not work to permit the church members to be armed if they choose to be armed. OC would be nice, but being armed is the goal, and CC achieves this goal.

OC for ME: it's not about issuing permits or compelling people, it's about expediency, what is best to accomplish the spread of the gospel. My role as elder applies first and foremost with the church mission, but does extend off the church property where people live.

We believe in a person's God given right to protect themselves. As I've stated in other posts, CC will be and already is employed in our congregation. And OC can and does occur, just not during certain meetings in which the goal is evangelism where visitors may be present. I'm really not sure why you're so bent out of shape about this. Take a breath, relax.

μολών λαβέ

So if NOT open carrying is offensive to someone or causes them angst, asta la vista, have a nice Bible study at home on the couch.
Because the phobics take precedence, and we wouldn't want to infringe on their experience.
Whenever there's someone to be discriminated against, it's somehow the one with the alleged Constitutionally guaranteed protection not to be discriminated against that's the one that gets discriminated against.

I guess if we want to reach out to seeking skinheads and clansmen, we should start segregating seperate services for where the otw's are welcome to attend...

Just trying to illustrate how alleged justifications seem to uniquely flow one way to the carrier's discrimination...

Sheesh. There's just no pleasing some people, especially when priorities differ. If your priority/goal is constitutional carry anywhere anytime, then nothing I say will be reasonable. If your priority/goal is to keep folk from going to hell, then what I say is reasonable.

μολών λαβέ

Liberty-or-Death said:

Sheesh. There's just no pleasing some people, especially when priorities differ. If your priority/goal is constitutional carry anywhere anytime, then nothing I say will be reasonable. If your priority/goal is to keep folk from going to hell, then what I say is reasonable.

μολών λαβέ

Click to expand...

OCing, or CCing for that matter, my impede a church member's pathway, in certain situations, to heaven?

Anyway. I'll depart from this conversation. Thanks for the reasonable and rational discussion. +1 to you Sir.

Liberty-or-Death said:

If your priority/goal is to keep folk from going to hell, then what I say is reasonable.
μολών λαβέ

Click to expand...

I just notice that only unarmed people going to hell are being served.
If you're committed to be armed but going to hell , then buy some aloe for your soon to be dry skin, because you're subordinated to the phobically unarmed.

The logic fails me why the disarmed is chosen to be sought for rescue over the armed. There seems to be a plethora of churches already serving the unarmed.

OC for ME: I'm not trying to score points, just trying to be understood, which at times is difficult in this medium, but not for lack of trying.

To that end, I'll say this - I know that if a church member OC'd in Sunday morning worship, it would make some young kids and older ladies gawk and ask questions, because it's not normalized (I long for the day it is). I'd deal with that on a case by case basis and I'm not really concerned about it. I seriously doubt anyone would leave over it, but there'd sure be talk.

What I AM concerned about is the first time visitor, or the lost soul who may be contemplating giving himself to Jesus that day. If he makes a different decision altogether that day, to leave and never come back because he lets his political views override what his spirit is yearning for, all because that church member selfishly and thoughtlessly decided to "exercise my 2A rights!" ... that would bother me greatly.

Part of my role is to identify and remove obstacles, hindrances, and immaturities that members or others pose to accomplishing the mission of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Likewise, if a newcomer visited, and OC'd as in the opening post, I would not prohibit him. I'd probably ask for his help in normalizing it in the church, and probably would ask for his patience and understanding that it'll take time. And I'd probably tell the old ladies and parents of the kids that we will not send him away, but will instead welcome him warmly as any other.

I'm pro 2A, but I'm even more pro Jesus. We must adapt for the sake of the gospel, so if we ask members to not OC (haven't needed to yet) during certain formal meetings, it shouldn't be the end of the world. I'm not asking anyone to be circumcised like Paul did with Timothy to keep from offending the Jews! I'm just asking members who want to OC to CC instead (haven't need to yet) at select formal meeting times. It shouldn't be a big deal for someone who has their priorities straight.

μολών λαβέ

Liberty - I think I'm catching what you're throwing

People should be focused on God, not my hip. Regardless of their irrational fears, they're still their fears...

On a different note, I have a sit down on Monday to discuss overall security and the carry policy...

Here were my edits, that right now based off of email traffic and FB posts seems to be well received...

Before anyone starts throwing stones, Rome wasn't built in a day...

Proposed weapon carry policy - deleted open

Anyone wishing to carry a *firearm*on the church premise must apply for permission from the Pastoral Leadership Team.

Every applicant seeking permission to carry a firearm must comply with one or more of the criteria listed below.

1*The applicant must be active duty or retired military (with specific training in the proper and protective use of side arms), or

2*The applicant must be employed as a law enforcement officer of a municipality, state or federal government agency, or

3*The applicant must have successfully completed a state certified weapons handling course, or

4*The applicant must possess a valid concealed handgun permit from the Commonwealth*of Virginia (or reciprical state).

Firearms*will not be allowed to be displayed in or around the children's areas (exception: Parents dropping off/picking up their children)

Shotguns and semi-automatic rifles will not be allowed on church premises at any time for any reason.

All applications submitted to the Pastoral Leadership Team must be accompanied with proof of one or more of the above listed criteria.

All applications will be reviewed and considered on an individual basis at the next scheduled Pastoral Leadership meeting.

Applicants will be notified of the Pastoral Leadership Team's decision via a church letter within 14 days of the Team's decision.

<DRAFT

AFCop said:

3*The applicant must have successfully completed a state certified weapons handling course, or
<DRAFT

Click to expand...

If I understand your note of, "Proposed weapon carry policy - deleted open" meaning that open carry is no longer an option, leaving only cc...

I don't think legally, that this alone is enough or relevant to be able to carry concealed anywhere other than one's own place of abode and curtilage or one's own place of business without a CHP (nor even necessary for those places).

I think a property owner should be able to convey cc privilege upon his non-CHP guests, but as yet cannot.

For that matter, as I skim through the cc exemptions, I don't see active or retired military being exempt w/o a CHP as suggested in 1*.
§ 18.2-308. Carrying concealed weapons; exceptions; penalty

If you're still allowing OC, but just deleted the term from the title, my bad.

Disallowing shotguns and semi-auto rifles even from vehicles seems unnecessarily restrictive.

I'm digging it AFCop. My two cents is change both "weapon" and "firearm" to "handgun". And I might lump "shotguns and s-a rifles" together as "long guns" or "non-handguns".

I'm frankly less interested in the policy proposal and more interested in how to shape and guide the attitudes of all those "talkers". I'd like to hear about that. And, any feedback from you on my recent posts? I've given serious thought to the OP and have hoped I have been a help to you.

μολών λαβέ

AF, I will admit that I haven't followed this thread very carefully.... but could you explain exactly how you intend to enforce this policy? If a church member is caught carrying without the 'permission' of the church, are you going to ask them to leave the church? Whats the penalty? To what extent are you and the church willing to go to, to enforce this? Banish a church member? Call the police and have them criminally charged? Have you given thought to how far you/the church is willing to take it?

Liberty-or-Death said:

I'm digging it AFCop. My two cents is change both "weapon" and "firearm" to "handgun". And I might lump "shotguns and s-a rifles" together as "long guns" or "non-handguns".

I'm frankly less interested in the policy proposal and more interested in how to shape and guide the attitudes of all those "talkers". I'd like to hear about that. And, any feedback from you on my recent posts? I've given serious thought to the OP and have hoped I have been a help to you.

μολών λαβέ

Click to expand...

1. I found it is very hard, as much as I believe in all of the Constitution, to try to tone down my arguments and try to shape them to be fair to everyone involved. Your recent scriptures really opened my eyes to this mind set and I hope I can convey that when we meet tomorrow.

2. From the messages I received, the OCing is not an issue at Church/events... In fact so much as he said that we do not need to alter our behavior...

3. I like your 2 cents better then my own.

4. You definitely guided my attitude a tad bit... I will let everyone know how tomorrow goes..

ChristCrusader said:

If I understand your note of, "Proposed weapon carry policy - deleted open" meaning that open carry is no longer an option, leaving only cc...

I don't think legally, that this alone is enough or relevant to be able to carry concealed anywhere other than one's own place of abode and curtilage or one's own place of business without a CHP (nor even necessary for those places).

I think a property owner should be able to convey cc privilege upon his non-CHP guests, but as yet cannot.

For that matter, as I skim through the cc exemptions, I don't see active or retired military being exempt w/o a CHP as suggested in 1*.
§ 18.2-308. Carrying concealed weapons; exceptions; penalty

If you're still allowing OC, but just deleted the term from the title, my bad.

Disallowing shotguns and semi-auto rifles even from vehicles seems unnecessarily restrictive.

Click to expand...

Not at all... The draft provided was titled weapon open carry policy but wasn't really geared towards either OC or CC... I proposed deleting the word open to make this just a weapon carrying policy, which leaves OC on the table as well as CC (with a permit or other justification in law -e.g. LEOSA)

The parking lot is a joint parking lot, therefor not included in the premises... The gist I am getting with the different requirements all focus around weapon handing training and have nothing to do with mode/method of carry as to handguns.

Blk97F150 said:

AF, I will admit that I haven't followed this thread very carefully.... but could you explain exactly how you intend to enforce this policy? If a church member is caught carrying without the 'permission' of the church, are you going to ask them to leave the church? Whats the penalty? To what extent are you and the church willing to go to, to enforce this? Banish a church member? Call the police and have them criminally charged? Have you given thought to how far you/the church is willing to take it?

Click to expand...

That is the million dollar question... I don't intend to enforce anything as it is not my place. Nor do I think it is going to be posted, thus making it unenforceable on its face. Nor are there any consequences being discussed. I think it is a feel good policy for those who dont like/want guns there... Dare I use the term "reasonable restrictions."

When I was approached (keep in mind months after I started to attend) and this was discussed, I was taken back. Accomplished advocate, I am not yet... So my intent, while not being in a decision making position at all, is to hopefully steer this in a direction where there are limitations but there aren't any real limitations.

I am also impressed my Pastor listed out semi-auto rifles and didn't call them "assault rifles."

If anything, my biggest accomplishment here will be preventing an outright ban "in or around the children's area" to a ban on "display" which de facto allows for CC - even if your teaching the kids - (within the law) with an exemption for people (like me) just picking up their kids OCing...

Lastly, no I haven't given any thought as to "how far" anyone is "willing to take it" because 1. Not my place and 2. I don't want to make a mountain out of a mole hill. I am not going to offer all this information to help someone fill in all the holes in this policy, in fact I plan on avoiding it altogether.

Why do they need a policy? Don't know but I what I can tell you is this... We were the first (and only) couple to OC in our church and as of the email I got Friday, we still are and there is no intent to change that.

Liberals need Jesus more then most conservatists (LoL) and I want to do my part to help them meet....

AFCop said:

... snipped ...
Liberals need Jesus more then most conservatists ... snipped ...

Click to expand...

Amen to that. In my years of church experience, liberals/progressives tend to migrate toward churches that also have a theologically and socially liberal leaning, while conservatives/liberty-lovers migrate toward churches that do a better job of respecting and rightly dividing the Word of God. I also believe that when a left-leaning person draws closer to Jesus and deepens their knowledge of Bible truths, a healthy respect for constitutional liberties and responsibilities is a predictable and natural byproduct. Kudos to you, sir.

μολών λαβέ

Well today was the day...

Some small talk, some questions as to why I carry, etc.

We talked about violence and where it can happen...

We talked about why he felt the church needs a policy...

He has concerns about people being scared, being more about bringing people to Christ and not wanting to be politicized as an OC Church...

It ended, almost without a handshake (on his part) and the statement of there being a policy, just no real idea as to how expansive.

He did say, while we "raised some eyebrows" and people were talking... there have been no negative comments... Week and a half and we'll see...

I wore my sheepdog shirt..

Who attended the meeting? You, the pastor, and 5-6 'shepherds'? Was discussion mainly focussed on your OC, or the policy too? In some ways the 'don't ask don't tell' policy works fine here in TX where OC is not an option.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good timing for a conference

http://www.sheepdogseminarsforchurches.com/virginia-beach-va-april-25-26-2014.html

WHO IS THIS SEMINAR FOR?
Pastors, Church Staff, Church Secretaries, Youth Workers, Deacons, Ushers, Church Safety Teams, First Responders...If you are concerned about the growing problem of violence at faith based locations - this is for you...

Sheepdog Seminar for Churches
Virginia Beach, VA


DATE
April 25 - 26
(Friday and Saturday)

LOCATION OF EVENT (PLEASE NOTE)
CALVARY BAPTIST CHURCH
4832 Haygood Road
Virginia Beach, VA 23455


COST
$99.00 PER PERSON
Please note: Registrants may attend one or both days. Price remains at $99.00 for one or both days.

TIMES
8:30 - 4:30 BOTH DAYS

AFCop: You seem disappointed; what outcome would you have rather seen from the meeting?

μολών λαβέ

Liberty-or-Death said:

AFCop: You seem disappointed; what outcome would you have rather seen from the meeting?

μολών λαβέ

Click to expand...

The only thing that bugged me was the end where the handshake almost didn't happen. Honestly, I would like to keep it as is, does there really need to a policy when you're expressing there isn't an issue. If there is an issue and you aren't being forthcoming about it, what does that really say about you??

Why create a problem where doesn't exist.

I did learn something in their personal life where I could understand the apprehension. I don't agree, but I understand.