So much for the secured container law

peter nap said:

Correct me if I'm wrong User, but Va being a weak legislative intent state, it's very difficult to show what the legislature intended. It is possible on occasion to show what they didn't mean. This bill was voted through as a locked container bill originally. The Governor sent it back with his recommendation that they use the word Secured....which they did and he signed it into law.

That gave a very strong indication that the bill did not mean "Locked".

The new bill, even if it goes back to the Governor in it's original form, removes much of the clout the first signing created.

Click to expand...

I don't have the link handy but if I recall correctly, the one opinion we have on this did extensively cite the legislative path that the law took as noted above. I remember asking about that at the time.

TFred

peter nap said:

This reminds me of the James Mason Supreme Court challenge. Playing Blackjack with your neighbors mortgage money.

Yes...my patience is very much done in.

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James Mason?

Anyone know Gabriella Hoffman?

This is what she says about what McAuliffe did:

Write Your Delegates to Stop Gov. McAuliffe’s Anti-Gun Amendments to HB962

Fellow Virginia voters: Make sure you write your delegates and urge them to reject McAuliffe’s amendments to HB962. If people in uber liberal Connecticut are fighting to keep their guns, we shouldn’t capitulate either.

Keep calm and CARRY on!

Click to expand...

Anyone know Gabriella Hoffman?

George Mason Damnit....too many things crammed in a small mind!:uhoh:

It's the dog hunters fault!

peter nap said:

George Mason Damnit....too many things crammed in a small mind!:uhoh:

It's the dog hunters fault!

Click to expand...

I Know, I Know ... those damn Burchers ...

peter nap said:

Correct me if I'm wrong User, but Va being a weak legislative intent state, it's very difficult to show what the legislature intended. It is possible on occasion to show what they didn't mean. This bill was voted through as a locked container bill originally. The Governor sent it back with his recommendation that they use the word Secured....which they did and he signed it into law.

That gave a very strong indication that the bill did not mean "Locked".

The new bill, even if it goes back to the Governor in it's original form, removes much of the clout the first signing created.

Click to expand...

In theory, there is no such thing as "legislative history" in Virginia. The statutes mean what they say and the legislature is conclusively presumed to know how to say what they mean in a statute, and when they don't, there are canons of construction that tell the court how to "interpret" the language. But in this case, the fact that the Governor suggested a change in the statute when originally enacted from "locked" to "secured" meant to the courts that the legislature had specifically rejected the word, "locked". Another vote on that topic will muddy the waters. As it is, the present governor is quite correct to veto the amendment, because it is merely duplicative of existing law, wasteful, and would produce no useful change to the law. A vote on his veto would suggest that the legislature thinks that "secured" is synonymous with "locked".

TFred said:

I don't have the link handy but if I recall correctly, the one opinion we have on this did extensively cite the legislative path that the law took as noted above. I remember asking about that at the time.

TFred

Click to expand...

http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinio...wp/0458122.pdf

"....That being said, our inquiry becomes one of defining “secure” as contemplated by the
General Assembly within the meaning of the statute. “Secured” is defined as “in safekeeping or
custody,” Webster’s New Universal Unabridged Dictionary 1641 (2d ed. 1983), or
“well-fastened,” The American Heritage Dictionary 1173 (New College Ed. 1982).
The evidence here shows that appellant’s handgun was in a closed, latched and
“well-fastened” glove compartment. Pursuant to the statute, appellant’s gun was “secured in a . . .
compartment” in his vehicle, thus reducing his access to the weapon. Because appellant’s handgun
was in compliance with the exception to the concealed weapon prohibition, his possession of the
gun did not violate Code § 18.2-308.

CONCLUSION

For the foregoing reasons, we reverse and dismiss appellant’s conviction.
Reversed and dismissed. "

mobeewan said:

http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinio...wp/0458122.pdf

"....That being said, our inquiry becomes one of defining “secure” as contemplated by the
General Assembly within the meaning of the statute. “Secured” is defined as “in safekeeping or
custody,” Webster’s New Universal Unabridged Dictionary 1641 (2d ed. 1983), or
“well-fastened,” The American Heritage Dictionary 1173 (New College Ed. 1982).
The evidence here shows that appellant’s handgun was in a closed, latched and
“well-fastened” glove compartment. Pursuant to the statute, appellant’s gun was “secured in a . . .
compartment” in his vehicle, thus reducing his access to the weapon. Because appellant’s handgun
was in compliance with the exception to the concealed weapon prohibition, his possession of the
gun did not violate Code § 18.2-308.

CONCLUSION

For the foregoing reasons, we reverse and dismiss appellant’s conviction.
Reversed and dismissed. "

Click to expand...

I'd like to email this reference to my Delegate (a democrat), but I can't get the link to work. A little help?

Thanks for posting a link. Here is the section that I remembered, from Pages 3-4, in which they clearly reference the path that the bill took to final form and use it to support the ruling:

In 2010, the General Assembly enacted subsection (B)(10) of the amendment exempting the prohibition of concealed handguns from personal vehicles in certain circumstances. History of that amendment indicates that the General Assembly specifically chose to omit the term “locked” from the statute. Initially, the General Assembly adopted the amendment that contained the language that a gun must be “locked in a container or compartment” within the vehicle. However, the Governor’s recommended change to the amendment replaced the word “locked” with “secured.” Journal of the House of Delegates 1658-59, Reg. Sess. (2010). In accepting the Governor’s proposed change, the legislature made it clear that in this amendment, “secured” does not mean “locked.” Had the legislature intended for “secured” and “locked” to be synonymous, they would have disregarded the Governor’s recommendation and adopted the amendment as originally written. Thus, under the facts presented here, we find that having the gun in a locked glove compartment is not a prerequisite for applying the Code § 18.2-308(B)(10) exemption.

Click to expand...

TFred

urgent HB 962 To make illegal to cc in your unlocked golve box wo cc permit

Virginia: McAuliffe’s First Attempt to Roll Back the Rights of Gun Owners

Posted on March 6, 2014
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With only two days left in the 2014 regular legislative session, Governor Terry McAuliffe (D) has made his first attempt to limit the legal use of firearms in Virginia by returning an amendment to House Bill 962 that would further restrict how handguns may be stored in vehicles. Sponsored by Delegate Ben Cline (R-24), HB 962 would codify an Attorney General opinion from 2012 (see here), and a decision of the Virginia Court of Appeals from last year, Doulgerakis v. Com., 737 S.E.2d 40 (Va. Ct. App. 2013). House Bill 962 has passed in the House of Delegates by a 70 to 27 vote as well as in the Senate by a 27 to 13 vote.

This opinion and decision both found that a handgun in a vehicle doesn’t have to be in a locked compartment in the motor vehicle to fit within a statutory exception to the concealed carry prohibition that allows for a person without a permit to conceal a firearm within a secured compartment or “secured” container within a motor vehicle. The McAuliffe amendment seeks to contradict the opinion and ruling by forcing drivers to keep firearms in a “locked” container rather than being allowed to secure those firearms in a container without a lock as they have lawfully been doing for years. What began as a simple clarification bill would be turned into legislation that is worse than current law.

The House of Delegates is expected to vote on this amendment tomorrow. Please contact your Delegate and respectfully urge him or her to vote against this restrictive amendment.

On a brighter note, as of July 1, hunters in the Commonwealth will finally be permitted to hunt on Sundays on private property with written landowner permission. House Bill 1237 was signed into law yesterday and its Senate companion, Senate Bill 154, is expected soon to be enacted as well. Please contact the sponsors of these bills, Delegate Todd Gilbert (R-15) and Senator Phil Puckett (D-38), and thank them for their leadership to expand and protect the Commonwealth's rich hunting heritage and providing greater opportunities to hunt that will strengthen recruitment and retention.

This has been discussed. It was irresponsible to introduce the bill in the first place. It needs to die.



--Moderator comment: Threads merged--

The House rejected the so-called 'Recommendations' 30-70

Who voted how not yet available.

Repeater said:

Who voted how not yet available.

Click to expand...

Probably pretty close to the same ones who voted FOR the Governor's recommendation in 2010!

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?101+sum+HB885

04/21/10 House: VOTE: --- ADOPTION (71-Y 24-N)

TFred

Vote results on HB962: (vote on rejecting the Governor's changes to 'locked')


http://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?141+vot+HV1408+HB0962

HB 962 Concealed handgun; carrying in a secured container or compartment in vehicle.

floor: 03/07/14 House: VOTE: REJECTED (30-Y 70-N)

YEAS--BaCote, Brink, Bulova, Carr, Dance, Filler-Corn, Futrell, Herring, Hester, Hope, Howell, A.T., James, Keam, Kory, Krupicka, Lopez, Mason, McClellan, McQuinn, Morrissey, Plum, Sickles, Simon, Spruill, Surovell, Torian, Toscano, Tyler, Ward, Watts--30.

NAYS--Adams, Albo, Anderson, Austin, Bell, Richard P., Bell, Robert B., Berg, Bloxom, Byron, Campbell, Chafin, Cline, Cole, Comstock, Cox, Davis, DeSteph, Edmunds, Fariss, Farrell, Fowler, Garrett, Gilbert, Greason, Habeeb, Head, Helsel, Hodges, Hugo, Ingram, Joannou, Jones, Kilgore, Knight, Landes, LaRock, Leftwich, LeMunyon, Lingamfelter, Loupassi, Marshall, D.W., Marshall, R.G., Massie, Miller, Minchew, Morefield, Morris, O'Bannon, O'Quinn, Orrock, Peace, Pogge, Poindexter, Ramadan, Ransone, Rasoul, Robinson, Rush, Rust, Scott, Stolle, Taylor, Villanueva, Ware, Webert, Wilt, Wright, Yancey, Yost, Mr. Speaker--70.

ABSTENTIONS--0.

NOT VOTING--0.

Blk97F150 said:

Vote results on HB962: (vote on rejecting the Governor's changes to 'locked')


http://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?141+vot+HV1408+HB0962

HB 962 Concealed handgun; carrying in a secured container or compartment in vehicle.

floor: 03/07/14 House: VOTE: REJECTED (30-Y 70-N)

YEAS--BaCote, Brink, Bulova, Carr, Dance, Filler-Corn, Futrell, Herring, Hester, Hope, Howell, A.T., James, Keam, Kory, Krupicka, Lopez, Mason, McClellan, McQuinn, Morrissey, Plum, Sickles, Simon, Spruill, Surovell, Torian, Toscano, Tyler, Ward, Watts--30.

NAYS--Adams, Albo, Anderson, Austin, Bell, Richard P., Bell, Robert B., Berg, Bloxom, Byron, Campbell, Chafin, Cline, Cole, Comstock, Cox, Davis, DeSteph, Edmunds, Fariss, Farrell, Fowler, Garrett, Gilbert, Greason, Habeeb, Head, Helsel, Hodges, Hugo, Ingram, Joannou, Jones, Kilgore, Knight, Landes, LaRock, Leftwich, LeMunyon, Lingamfelter, Loupassi, Marshall, D.W., Marshall, R.G., Massie, Miller, Minchew, Morefield, Morris, O'Bannon, O'Quinn, Orrock, Peace, Pogge, Poindexter, Ramadan, Ransone, Rasoul, Robinson, Rush, Rust, Scott, Stolle, Taylor, Villanueva, Ware, Webert, Wilt, Wright, Yancey, Yost, Mr. Speaker--70.

ABSTENTIONS--0.

NOT VOTING--0.

Click to expand...

That is a veto proof margin in the House of Delegates... Wonder where we stand in the Senate...

AFCop said:

That is a veto proof margin in the House of Delegates... Wonder where we stand in the Senate...

Click to expand...

Probably close to the original vote assuming there isn't any deal cutting over the budget

YEAS--Alexander, Black, Carrico, Cosgrove, Deeds, Edwards, Garrett, Hanger, Lewis, Martin, McDougle, McWaters, Newman, Norment, Obenshain, Petersen, Puckett, Reeves, Ruff, Smith, Stanley, Stosch, Stuart, Vogel, Wagner, Watkins, Wexton--27.
NAYS--Barker, Colgan, Ebbin, Favola, Howell, Locke, Lucas, Marsden, Marsh, McEachin, Miller, Puller, Saslaw--13.
RULE 36--0.
NOT VOTING--0.

peter nap said:

Probably close to the original vote assuming there isn't any deal cutting over the budget

--snipped--.

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The "budget" - therein lay the Devils Details - the cutting room floor may be littered with them.

peter nap said:

Probably close to the original vote assuming there isn't any deal cutting over the budget

YEAS--Alexander, Black, Carrico, Cosgrove, Deeds, Edwards, Garrett, Hanger, Lewis, Martin, McDougle, McWaters, Newman, Norment, Obenshain, Petersen, Puckett, Reeves, Ruff, Smith, Stanley, Stosch, Stuart, Vogel, Wagner, Watkins, Wexton--27.
NAYS--Barker, Colgan, Ebbin, Favola, Howell, Locke, Lucas, Marsden, Marsh, McEachin, Miller, Puller, Saslaw--13.
RULE 36--0.
NOT VOTING--0.

Click to expand...

The question comes to the front, will the Virginia Democrats embrace their leader's Obama/Chicago style of politics and yield to the utter disaster that rules Washington? Or will they send him a clear message that this is not how civilized people govern themselves?

TFred

TFred said:

The question comes to the front, will the Virginia Democrats embrace their leader's Obama/Chicago style of politics and yield to the utter disaster that rules Washington? Or will they send him a clear message that this is not how civilized people govern themselves?

TFred

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You know TFred...this whole session I've felt like I was fly fishing for native trout. I sneak up on the pool, toss just the right fly, watch his wake heading for the fly....then at the last second..........veer left or right and flip me the fin (Trout version of the finger):uhoh:

"will the Virginia Democrats embrace their leader's Obama/Chicago style of politics "....who the hell knows but I ain't counting on a trout dinner.:uhoh:

Ooh, Looky.

Marsden. Marsh. Saslaw.

What a surprise. :banghead: