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Thread: Why Do Constitutionalists Support the Drug War? Gov. Moonbeams asks, stoner nation?

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    Why Do Constitutionalists Support the Drug War? Gov. Moonbeams asks, stoner nation?

    "The latest ruse of some conservatives to garner the sympathy, support, and votes of libertarians is to declare that they are “constitutionalists.” Although they are sometimes referred to as “libertarians” in the media, sometimes even portray themselves as “libertarian-leaning,” and get ecstatic when real libertarians describe them as “liberty-minded,” these conservative “constitutionalists” are not only not libertarian, they are not even constitutional."
    http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/03/l...ht-on-mankind/

    https://news.google.com/news/rtc?ncl...-S3dSjLVZLFygM
    Last edited by Nightmare; 03-04-2014 at 06:12 PM.
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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Because they are not constitutionalists.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member Gallowmere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Because they are not constitutionalists.
    Pretty much this.

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    Libertarians don't fall for this either ....

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    I've been toying with an idea lately. I'm thinking to declare myself a very liberal progressive.

    Wait! Put down those pitchforks!

    Here's what I mean.

    Plainly, the word liberal was stolen by liars. Plainly the word progressive was stolen by fraudsters.

    The root of liberal is liber, Latin for freedom (liberty). Progress means forward motion towards improvement.

    So, we just steal back the words.

    A very high high-point of political philosophy was John Locke's Second Treatise on Government, 1689. A very, very high high-point of political action occurred on July 4, 1776 when Locke's philosophy was actually used in a political document to justify the American Revolution. "We hold these truths to be self-evident..." That paragraph is almost verbatim John Locke. That is freedom. That is liberal.

    It was also exceptionally progressive. Progress towards liberty. Progress towards less government power. Progressive. The modern so-called progressive is actually regressive, using government against people, victimizing them with taxation, hyper-regulation, unsound economic and monetary policy, etc., etc., etc. That's not progress; that's backwards. That's giving government more and more power, not freedom.

    So, I've decided I am one of the most liberal, progressive people you can imagine. A real one. Picking up right where Jefferson left off: "...endowed by their Creator with certain unalieanable rights...deriving its just powers from the consent of the governed."

    Seems to me its way past time for some genuine liberalism. Way past time for some genuine progress.
    Last edited by Citizen; 03-04-2014 at 11:56 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Seems to me its way past time for some genuine liberalism.
    Hey, welcome to my head!
    Last edited by marshaul; 03-05-2014 at 01:05 AM.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Everybody knows what a liberal is, especially these days.

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/liberal

    "progressive" is what liberals do, not who they are.

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dicti...0&t=1394022489

    I ain't putting away my pitch fork or torch.

    This is Americuh and you can do whatever you want to do.....bless your heart.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Because most people no matter their political flavor fall into these camps. 1) If it does not affect me personally I don't care. 2)The constitution is only relative for what I think is necessary. 3)The constitution is only about my wants.

    Basically it comes down to selfishness overrides intent of the constitution. They may call themselves constitutionals, but they really are nowhere near it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Because most people no matter their political flavor fall into these camps. 1) If it does not affect me personally I don't care. 2)The constitution is only relative for what I think is necessary. 3)The constitution is only about my wants.

    Basically it comes down to selfishness overrides intent of the constitution. They may call themselves constitutionals, but they really are nowhere near it.
    +1

    I always ask drug warriors if we needed a constitutional amendment to out law alcohol why didn't we did one for drugs.
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    "Everybody" drinks, not everybody does drugs. Oh, and that "booze is a drug" crap, won't fly, and don't even try.

    How many folks are "overdosing" on booze when compared to drugs?
    In 2010, the CDC reported, there were 38,329 drug overdose deaths nationwide.

    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/drug-...nsecutive-year
    Then...
    Alcohol poisoning, 2006 - 2010 - Overall: 1,647, Male: 1,264, Female: 383

    http://apps.nccd.cdc.gov/DACH_ARDI/D...E037FC56&F=&D=
    You wanna do drugs, more power to you, and good luck.

    Legalize drugs and make the FDA regulate the formerly illegal drugs to ensure the public is kept safe from cheap Chinese fakes that are made with floor wax and Draino. Remove the incentive that LE has to trample individual rights.

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    Drug cartels look to capitalize on legal marijuana laws

    Mr. Harrigan got into a dispute with Democrats on the panel when he said he supports having marijuana classified as a Schedule I controlled substance, pointing to emergency room visits and high levels of gang activity that surround the drug’s use and trafficking.

    “You haven’t kept up with society, you haven’t kept up with science,” Rep. Steve Cohen, Tennessee Democrat, told Mr. Harrigan.

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...n-legal-marij/
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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    A word to the wise.

    Per the 1900 Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary.

    Liberal:
    Not bound by orthodox tenets or established forms in political or religious philosophy; independent in opinion; not conservative; friendly to great freedom in the constitution or administration of government; having tendency toward democratic or republican, as distinguished from monarchical or aristocratic, forms; as, liberal thinkers; liberal Christians; the Liberal party.

    Democratic:
    Pertaining to democracy; favoring democracy, or constructed upon the principle of government by the people; befitting the common people; -- opposed to aristocratic.

    Republican:
    Of or pertaining to a republic.

    Republic:
    A state in which the sovereign power resides in the whole body of the people, and is exercised by representatives elected by them; a commonwealth.

    Progressive:
    Moving forward; proceeding onward; advancing; evincing progress; increasing; as, progressive motion or course; -- opposed to retrograde.


    The term Liberal, Democratic and Republic have clear and definite definitions. The term Progressive has a nebulous definition.




    He who controls the definition of words, controls the future.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    ...

    Legalize drugs and make the FDA regulate the formerly illegal drugs to ensure the public is kept safe from cheap Chinese fakes that are made with floor wax and Draino. Remove the incentive that LE has to trample individual rights.
    I know if you had any direct legal experience with the FDA I think you would not have made the above statement.

    The FDA is not your friend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    I know if you had any direct legal experience with the FDA I think you would not have made the above statement.

    The FDA is not your friend.
    True. maybe my sarcasm needs to be more obvious next time.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    How many folks are "overdosing" on booze when compared to drugs?
    First of all, that factors in illegal and legal drugs, which means you're comparing one drug to ALL of them.

    Secondly, fatal "overdoses" are relatively rare to begin with. On the other hand,

    Quote Originally Posted by CDC
    There are approximately 88,000 deaths attributable to excessive alcohol use each year in the United States.1 This makes excessive alcohol use the 3r d leading lifestyle-related cause of death for the nation.2
    http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/alcohol-use.htm

    Alcohol is easily the most dangerous drug in common use.

    Oh, and if pot is a drug, then so is alcohol.
    Last edited by marshaul; 03-05-2014 at 04:51 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    I know if you had any direct legal experience with the FDA I think you would not have made the above statement.

    The FDA is not your friend.
    Indeed. The FDA is not needed to apply tortious liability to manufacturers of substances who knowingly utilize methods unfit for human consumption.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    First of all, that factors in illegal and legal drugs, which means you're comparing one drug to ALL of them.

    Secondly, fatal "overdoses" are relatively rare to begin with. On the other hand,



    http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/alcohol-use.htm

    Alcohol is easily the most dangerous drug in common use.

    Oh, and if pot is a drug, then so is alcohol.
    A drug is something that is used in the treatment of disease....I doubt that the majority (<<<read that word before commenting) of users utilizing the substance have a disease. Its just a "substance" or other such name.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    First of all, that factors in illegal and legal drugs, which means you're comparing one drug to ALL of them.

    Secondly, fatal "overdoses" are relatively rare to begin with. On the other hand,

    http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/alcohol-use.htm

    Alcohol is easily the most dangerous drug in common use.

    Oh, and if pot is a drug, then so is alcohol.
    I provided the data. You can agree or disagree. But I specifically cited deaths due to ODs from "illegal drugs." Lumping in all deaths where alcohol is related to, or a major contributing factor, is misleading.

    The numbers are what they are, "illegal drug" use (ODing) has caused >38,000 deaths as a result of the ingestion/injection of the drug alone. Alcohol (ODing), <1,700. I'll even go out on a limb and state that there are vastly more booze drinkers than "illegal drug" users, though, that limb may break at any moment.

    I could argue that owning a car directly contributes to drunk driving, but I won't.

    Of course alcohol is a drug, so are smokes. Comparing alcohol use in general as you do, to drug use in general, your evaluation is sound. I did not evaluate as you do, thus, in this case, apples to oranges.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I provided the data. You can agree or disagree. But I specifically cited deaths due to ODs from "illegal drugs." Lumping in all deaths where alcohol is related to, or a major contributing factor, is misleading.

    The numbers are what they are, "illegal drug" use (ODing) has caused >38,000 deaths as a result of the ingestion/injection of the drug alone. Alcohol (ODing), <1,700. I'll even go out on a limb and state that there are vastly more booze drinkers than "illegal drug" users, though, that limb may break at any moment.

    I could argue that owning a car directly contributes to drunk driving, but I won't.

    Of course alcohol is a drug, so are smokes. Comparing alcohol use in general as you do, to drug use in general, your evaluation is sound. I did not evaluate as you do, thus, in this case, apples to oranges.
    Oh, one other thing. Research, or extrapolate backwards, I don't care which, the number of deaths from ODs from "illegal drugs" for the same time frams as the deaths from booze ODs, not even 1% on the booze front.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    A drug is something that is used in the treatment of disease....I doubt that the majority (<<<read that word before commenting) of users utilizing the substance have a disease. Its just a "substance" or other such name.
    I hate to be that guy, but the word drug has several definitions, with the most broad being this: any article, other than food, intended to affect the structure or any function of the body of humans or other animals.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    True. maybe my sarcasm needs to be more obvious next time.
    As it pains me, I too forget, from time to time, to utilize those faces that convey emotions.

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    The dictionary fallacy writ small

    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    A word to the wise. [ ... ] The term Progressive has a nebulous definition. He who controls the definition of words, controls the future.
    I found the most effective use of the word in Hillsdale College's on-line Constitution 101 courses at about lecture number four. Considering that requires some investment in background and time not often made here from OCDO ....

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progre...#United_States

    Progressivism is the political bowel movement of the left and right to make-things-better, usually by writing more law (while ignoring the law of unintended consequences), NEVER by rescinding/repealing.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    A genuine Virginia conservative is an Eighteenth-Century British Liberal.
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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Hey, welcome to my head!
    Dude, no more tequilas, your mind just keeps pouring shots...
    I'm not going back in there.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Dude, no more tequilas, your mind just keeps pouring shots...
    I'm not going back in there.
    Oh! Is that how he does it?

    Well, then. Let's get him likkered-up real good, and see what he comes up with philosophy-wise! A few drinks above usual, and I bet he can give Plato, More, Hobbes, Locke, and Hayek a run for their money.


    Last edited by Citizen; 03-06-2014 at 10:40 AM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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