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Thread: confused and concerned new business owner looking for advice

  1. #1
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    confused and concerned new business owner looking for advice

    My wife and i are new business owners, and we are torn as to how to handle the open carry options for our customers. i start out saying this 1: because i'm new at forums and just picked a good starting point. 2: i am a legal gun owner and have chosen to only conceal carry 3: have some rules that i must follow and have many arguments with my wife whom i love more then my gun to deal with and 4: a concerned majority of people i service who are against open carry.

    ok so this is the scenario and thank you in advance for reading this.

    i own a mall, and i was informed by my landlord that this is his private property and he doesn't not allow guns on his property. now that i'm essentially "subletting his space for my business" his contract states i have to abide by the rules of the entire strip mall. Ok i get it he doesn't like guns. However i do, where as my wife is terrified by them. Not the guns as much but those few who i would call braggart legal gun owners that get flashy with their guns. now before i get crucified, our first day we opened a man came in with a card saying he would not patronize me because i left the no weapons sign up from the previous tenant and landlord and showed my wife and many customers as well as my clients and 2 year old daughter his gun and how he has committed no crime and went on about how i was taking his rights away. Well what put me off about it was that my rights to choose not to allow the "open carry" in the store was being ridiculed but i was to respect his rights and as he put it shove it up my arse. Now this is what i mean about those few who legally can carry guns but probably shouldn't for the sake of their own desire to obtain power with it. (more like doesn't respect the power he was given). and for the records i know and have many many friends who carry both open and concealed

    Now after this incident and mind you i was very nice and informed him that i also know my rights and he is scaring my customers and my wife and i asked him to leave, but in a joking manner said his gun could stay as i have the right to refuse service to him for his rude attitude(one that i didnt pull him off the street and invite in to my store, where as he came on his own to provoke a scene)in front of children taking a class from us, all while the sign was not inconspicuous but smack in plain sight. now i called the police and they came out, and i showed them the video. they stated to me that he was clearly one of those who spoil the bunch of apples, but they actually knew who he was and said he gets worked up and has had many complaints in the past.(lucky me right) and i clearly understand that there are those types in every group, even the right ones. So now i sit with a predicament. The clients 177 of them that i service in my store have spoken up requesting me to ban weapons as a whole, my wife who is more balanced in her opinions wants me to restrict just open carry and concealed is just fine, as we both believe out of personal experiences the person who needs to flash it is more to fear then the man who carries for protection of himself and others. i believe that i am the latter i carry concealed because i exercise my rights to protect my own, but i defend my rights first, and the last thing i want is to alienate my customers though i cannot please everyone, and in retail you gotta suck it up sometimes. So after all this mess i spoke to the landlord and informed him i was going to have my own legally purchased gun in the store which i pointed out to him that i didn't have to have a license as it was considered an extension of my property inside of the store where as his insurance covers the outside and mine inside. he reluctantly agreed that he would not press the issue but would be on the fence. i took that as a small win. But those people who pay my bills and afford the money to provide for my child and wife are against it. so the compromise is this. and i want to know if it would be understood by those who every day come and throw " i will not patronize you cards at my doorstep" that i am not against legal weapons at all, i want them to stay concealed or leave it in the car. I don't see a sign that says that anywhere and that is the first question is there one and where can i get it. My wife and i want to be neutral ground for all who wants to shop with us but i have to compromise to keep the balance and stay well in business even for the minority of people who patronize me. the last thing that is in the equation is this. we are registering with the state and county as a "safe place" for lost children or whomever needs a place to go in an emergency. i also have weekly classes that my wife and i teach children, most of them are too young to understand the rights battles. and i am under the understanding that guns are not allowed in local govt affiliated establishments, (safe place makes us an affiliate with DHS for children) so with all this and i think i need some work on my forum posting skills can any of you offer productive advice and insight. I know my rights and don't need to be preached to i'm looking for advice as to how to post my signs with the intentions of a "compromise carry" and save the what seem like vindictive argument from these same few men who are just ******* my wife off and thats not cool at all. legal or not.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by i want to know more View Post
    My wife and i are new business owners, and we are torn as to how to handle the open carry options for our customers. i start out saying this 1: because i'm new at forums and just picked a good starting point. 2: i am a legal gun owner and have chosen to only conceal carry 3: have some rules that i must follow and have many arguments with my wife whom i love more then my gun to deal with and 4: a concerned majority of people i service who are against open carry.

    ok so this is the scenario and thank you in advance for reading this.

    i own a mall, and i was informed by my landlord that this is his private property and he doesn't not allow guns on his property. now that i'm essentially "subletting his space for my business" his contract states i have to abide by the rules of the entire strip mall. Ok i get it he doesn't like guns. However i do, where as my wife is terrified by them. Not the guns as much but those few who i would call braggart legal gun owners that get flashy with their guns. now before i get crucified, our first day we opened a man came in with a card saying he would not patronize me because i left the no weapons sign up from the previous tenant and landlord and showed my wife and many customers as well as my clients and 2 year old daughter his gun and how he has committed no crime and went on about how i was taking his rights away. Well what put me off about it was that my rights to choose not to allow the "open carry" in the store was being ridiculed but i was to respect his rights and as he put it shove it up my arse. Now this is what i mean about those few who legally can carry guns but probably shouldn't for the sake of their own desire to obtain power with it. (more like doesn't respect the power he was given). and for the records i know and have many many friends who carry both open and concealed

    Now after this incident and mind you i was very nice and informed him that i also know my rights and he is scaring my customers and my wife and i asked him to leave, but in a joking manner said his gun could stay as i have the right to refuse service to him for his rude attitude(one that i didnt pull him off the street and invite in to my store, where as he came on his own to provoke a scene)in front of children taking a class from us, all while the sign was not inconspicuous but smack in plain sight. now i called the police and they came out, and i showed them the video. they stated to me that he was clearly one of those who spoil the bunch of apples, but they actually knew who he was and said he gets worked up and has had many complaints in the past.(lucky me right) and i clearly understand that there are those types in every group, even the right ones. So now i sit with a predicament. The clients 177 of them that i service in my store have spoken up requesting me to ban weapons as a whole, my wife who is more balanced in her opinions wants me to restrict just open carry and concealed is just fine, as we both believe out of personal experiences the person who needs to flash it is more to fear then the man who carries for protection of himself and others. i believe that i am the latter i carry concealed because i exercise my rights to protect my own, but i defend my rights first, and the last thing i want is to alienate my customers though i cannot please everyone, and in retail you gotta suck it up sometimes. So after all this mess i spoke to the landlord and informed him i was going to have my own legally purchased gun in the store which i pointed out to him that i didn't have to have a license as it was considered an extension of my property inside of the store where as his insurance covers the outside and mine inside. he reluctantly agreed that he would not press the issue but would be on the fence. i took that as a small win. But those people who pay my bills and afford the money to provide for my child and wife are against it. so the compromise is this. and i want to know if it would be understood by those who every day come and throw " i will not patronize you cards at my doorstep" that i am not against legal weapons at all, i want them to stay concealed or leave it in the car. I don't see a sign that says that anywhere and that is the first question is there one and where can i get it. My wife and i want to be neutral ground for all who wants to shop with us but i have to compromise to keep the balance and stay well in business even for the minority of people who patronize me. the last thing that is in the equation is this. we are registering with the state and county as a "safe place" for lost children or whomever needs a place to go in an emergency. i also have weekly classes that my wife and i teach children, most of them are too young to understand the rights battles. and i am under the understanding that guns are not allowed in local govt affiliated establishments, (safe place makes us an affiliate with DHS for children) so with all this and i think i need some work on my forum posting skills can any of you offer productive advice and insight. I know my rights and don't need to be preached to i'm looking for advice as to how to post my signs with the intentions of a "compromise carry" and save the what seem like vindictive argument from these same few men who are just ******* my wife off and thats not cool at all. legal or not.
    Greetings from sunny, dry Arizona!
    I'll try to answer some of your questions and some of the myths and fallacies in your post (don't blame you, since they are heavily perpetuated by the anti-gun, anti-Freedom media).

    On open carry vs discreet carry (also known by the misnomer "concealed carry"):
    When you are attacked, you are already at a temporal disadvantage; reaction ALWAYS follows the action, so you are left trying to "catch up" to the aggressor's attack in order to defend yourself. Why give the criminal an even greater advantage by handicapping yourself with having to work around a layer of clothing covering your sidearm to simply draw it? The same applies to either an empty chamber or, MUCH WORSE, an empty chamber and an empty magazine.
    Open Carry is the only way to head off such an attack (holding all other things constant, including situational awareness) by letting the criminal know "I'm not an easy target". If antis would ever watch the nature shows, they'd realize that predators TEND to (read: seemingly always) attack smaller, weaker, or injured individuals. I've never seen an attack sprung on the biggest, healthiest, strongest herbivore in the herd.
    So yes, Open Carry is carrying for defense. As a matter of fact, I would say it is the ONLY defensive carry, since an unseen weapon is only advantageous as an offensive tactic (if you are the assailant), whereas OC tries to prevent the attack from ever taking place. Discreet carry leaves the carrier looking like a soft, easy target, OC tells the criminal "I'm armed, I'm not an easy target".
    Unlike people in the armed forces, criminals don't generally have the "accomplish the mission at all costs" mentality. Their train of though is usually along the lines of "get in and out, but don't get caught". A firefight is the last thing they want since they might end up dead. Bad for business.

    As for believing open carriers to be more dangerous to you and other law abiding citizens: a thug may need to ditch the weapon, so spending some money on a holster is not an option because of cost, and the fact that the holster would connect said thug to a particular weapon. So it is pretty safe to say that maybe an open carrier is not as dangerous as the thug whose gun you DON'T see tucked in the waistband of his underpants.
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke

  3. #3
    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    You could put up a sign like this one:
    Attachment 11334
    With this sign, you would be both respecting EVERYONE'S Right to self-defense (whether they choose to practice it or choose to be easy targets is their CHOICE, but their Right is there) as well as advocating for (true) gun safety. You would also be supporting lawful carry by armed Law-Abiding Citizens (armed LACs), and letting the criminal element know that your store is not easy pickings (going back to the prey and predators in nature analogy).

    Now, to since you're the boss, you could suggest a staff meeting to cover the four (3) Laws of gun safety (the "rules" part that is in the works):

    1) Treat all firearms as though they are loaded
    2) Don't point the muzzle at anything you're not willing to destroy
    3) Finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot
    4) Know your target, and what is beyond it [this last one is really just a subset of #2]

    For the "regulations" part:

    1) Firearms must be properly maintained and in a safe, serviceable condition (mistreated or broken guns are the ONLY unsafe guns; every other gun is just an extension of the user)
    2) All guns must remain holstered at all times unless a threat of lethal force arises (eg: bad guy appears)
    3) If the gun must be unholstered, judicious marksmanship is appreciated
    4) To better marksmanship and increase sidearm proficiency (which correlates to increased safe handling of said sidearm), it is suggested that armed employees frequent the range about once a month
    (OPTIONAL) One 20-rd box of ammunition shall be awarded to the "marksman of the month" for his/her efforts at honing their firearm skills in the interest of maintaining a safe work environment.

    So there. You would respecte everyone's Rights, advocate for gun safety and gun training, as well as warn off the criminal element. All of these things contribute to a safe working environment (not the head-in-the-sand fantasy of "Gun-Free Zones", AKA Criminal-Empowerment Zones).
    Last edited by Rusty Young Man; 03-09-2014 at 08:09 PM.
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke

  4. #4
    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    I don't know about the "Safe Place" affiliation, but I'm sure someone will be along that knows how that works.

    My biggest suggestion would be for you and yours to attend an OC lunch or dinner in your area. If there are none in the OK forum, start one (if you make it, they will come).
    Choose a date and venue a few weeks in advance, attend with an open mind, and you'll soon see how your fears of OC and open carriers are largely unfounded and probably caused by what you've seen on the media. These preconceptions likely influenced your perception of the man you described above.

    If possible, spend some time with your wife looking through the thread Protias has been cultivating with real-world examples of attacks that happen in "safe" places (THANK Protias for keeping it fairly up to date):
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...need-for-a-gun

    The advantage is the inclusion of links to news reports. Invaluable if you are trying to how someone that it isn't likely an Internet-perpetuated myth.

    Here are some other links that may help introduce your wife to guns and their usefulness in protecting what we cherish most in this world: our loved ones.
    [Posts quoted in their entirety, but without the quote "bubbles" in case someone later on wishes to simply quote the entire list (http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...#post2040017)].

    MKEgal in post 57:
    "I've brought up having her take the basic pistol class. Can't say she was eager to do it, but I think she would at least give it a go."

    If you see a Cornered Cat class near you, sign her up for it. See if there's an all-women class, 'cause the dynamic is completely different. Kathy Jackson is a nationally-known instructor.

    www.corneredcat.com is a very good resource for women shooters, and has lots of useful info for shooters of all descriptions and plumbing types.

    Here's why it's called "Cornered Cat", and would be a very good place for your wife to start exploring the articles on the site, as well as an explanation of why you carry.
    There's a section on ethical questions, "why I carry a gun", understanding crime, and a section for men that you should read.

    Beyond that, I think that Skidmark & PistolPackinMama gave good advice.
    Try to get her to tell you exactly what her objection is, very specifically, and why she feels that way.
    That's the only way you're going to be able to figure out how to help her address her fears or concerns.


    golddigger14s in post 92:
    A great site for your wife to check out:
    http://www.thewellarmedwoman.com/man...ht-have-killed
    Send her an email for her book.


    Grapeshot in post 94:
    Also two more fantastic sources:

    The book Armed & Female by Paxton Quigley
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...-says-yes.html

    And the site The Cornered Cat
    http://www.corneredcat.com/



    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by Rusty Young Man; 03-09-2014 at 08:27 PM.
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke

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    It sounds like you might run a martial arts school and since I do as well, I can sympathize. I recommend you take the current sign down, why bring politics into the business? We went down that road, it caused a hue schism in the school until we took it down. Most people don't notice the absence of the sign, but both sides of the aisle notice the presence.

    Sent from my cm_tenderloin using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Young Man View Post
    Greetings from sunny, dry Arizona!
    I'll try to answer some of your questions and some of the myths and fallacies in your post (don't blame you, since they are heavily perpetuated by the anti-gun, anti-Freedom media).

    On open carry vs discreet carry (also known by the misnomer "concealed carry"):
    When you are attacked, you are already at a temporal disadvantage; reaction ALWAYS follows the action, so you are left trying to "catch up" to the aggressor's attack in order to defend yourself. Why give the criminal an even greater advantage by handicapping yourself with having to work around a layer of clothing covering your sidearm to simply draw it? The same applies to either an empty chamber or, MUCH WORSE, an empty chamber and an empty magazine.
    Open Carry is the only way to head off such an attack (holding all other things constant, including situational awareness) by letting the criminal know "I'm not an easy target". If antis would ever watch the nature shows, they'd realize that predators TEND to (read: seemingly always) attack smaller, weaker, or injured individuals. I've never seen an attack sprung on the biggest, healthiest, strongest herbivore in the herd.
    So yes, Open Carry is carrying for defense. As a matter of fact, I would say it is the ONLY defensive carry, since an unseen weapon is only advantageous as an offensive tactic (if you are the assailant), whereas OC tries to prevent the attack from ever taking place. Discreet carry leaves the carrier looking like a soft, easy target, OC tells the criminal "I'm armed, I'm not an easy target".
    Unlike people in the armed forces, criminals don't generally have the "accomplish the mission at all costs" mentality. Their train of though is usually along the lines of "get in and out, but don't get caught". A firefight is the last thing they want since they might end up dead. Bad for business.

    As for believing open carriers to be more dangerous to you and other law abiding citizens: a thug may need to ditch the weapon, so spending some money on a holster is not an option because of cost, and the fact that the holster would connect said thug to a particular weapon. So it is pretty safe to say that maybe an open carrier is not as dangerous as the thug whose gun you DON'T see tucked in the waistband of his underpants.
    thankyou for your reply. i dont know if what i said was a fallacy well at least its not to me, i grew up in brooklyn and in a bad part of it for that matter, and truth of situation for my personal experiences was that the man with the obvious gun was the first you take out. which is i gather a good source for my opinion. but knowing the truth can conclude and be a fallacy i guess fallacy is like truth it is what it is. my opinion of open carry does not extend to all, just those who go out and get a gun and have the overwhelming need to continually force their opinions on you . a lot like religion is a sense i feel at times it can and does take away from those who are the good apples in the proverbial group. i respect the man who carries because he defends himself and his family ..etc. but am annoyed at the those who come in and start a conflict instead of saying hey i noticed you have a sign, is that your position, assumption is the mother of all screwups, or my favorite just today. a 70+ year old woman was in line and a man came in and nudged her out of line to yell at me about it. what did that old lady have to do with that man's aggression towards a sign that i'm fighting to work out. but that "thug looking fellow" said hey man wait your turn in line and was very courteous towards my wife and customers. you see the "myth" there as law abiding citizens are not exempt from some tact and respect and if you come into a store weather mine or any random one and act aggressive the outcome though honorable is just reduced to tantrums. that is my personal opinion right there. i'm not a man of small demeanor or afraid to say i have a gun and i definitely look the type to cause intimidation, so maybe a fallacy of confidence for my self but id be ok with open carry in my store if those same men didn't come every day and make me feel like they were bullying me for having a personally obtained objective experience when they personally do not affect my business in a financial way but just sheerly make little old ladies and children scared. this is the source of my concern. as a great friend and customer of mine who owns a shooting range here in town agrees with the notion that i have the right to stand up for my business just as much as my personal freedoms. so again how do i solve this or am i going to get more information on criminals, when i grew up surrounded by them and chose to conceal my intentions to rise above where i rode in from. Now on a different note seeing your point i do agree the open carry concept when basing it on clothing in the way and that sort of scientific line of thought. please forgive em if this response seems aggressive i am becoming short on patience for my situation as of a few mins ago so i may have typed with heavy hearted fingers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Young Man View Post
    You could put up a sign like this one:
    Attachment 11334
    With this sign, you would be both respecting EVERYONE'S Right to self-defense (whether they choose to practice it or choose to be easy targets is their CHOICE, but their Right is there) as well as advocating for (true) gun safety. You would also be supporting lawful carry by armed Law-Abiding Citizens (armed LACs), and letting the criminal element know that your store is not easy pickings (going back to the prey and predators in nature analogy).

    Now, to since you're the boss, you could suggest a staff meeting to cover the four (3) Laws of gun safety (the "rules" part that is in the works):

    1) Treat all firearms as though they are loaded
    2) Don't point the muzzle at anything you're not willing to destroy
    3) Finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot
    4) Know your target, and what is beyond it [this last one is really just a subset of #2]

    For the "regulations" part:

    1) Firearms must be properly maintained and in a safe, serviceable condition (mistreated or broken guns are the ONLY unsafe guns; every other gun is just an extension of the user)
    2) All guns must remain holstered at all times unless a threat of lethal force arises (eg: bad guy appears)
    3) If the gun must be unholstered, judicious marksmanship is appreciated
    4) To better marksmanship and increase sidearm proficiency (which correlates to increased safe handling of said sidearm), it is suggested that armed employees frequent the range about once a month
    (OPTIONAL) One 20-rd box of ammunition shall be awarded to the "marksman of the month" for his/her efforts at honing their firearm skills in the interest of maintaining a safe work environment.

    So there. You would respecte everyone's Rights, advocate for gun safety and gun training, as well as warn off the criminal element. All of these things contribute to a safe working environment (not the head-in-the-sand fantasy of "Gun-Free Zones", AKA Criminal-Empowerment Zones).
    that is a great sign and i think that will do the trick. thank you for seeing the point to my ranted questions

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcbrad98 View Post
    It sounds like you might run a martial arts school and since I do as well, I can sympathize. I recommend you take the current sign down, why bring politics into the business? We went down that road, it caused a hue schism in the school until we took it down. Most people don't notice the absence of the sign, but both sides of the aisle notice the presence.

    Sent from my cm_tenderloin using Tapatalk
    your not to far from it but i deal with elderly and children lol stressful at times just on its own

  9. #9
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    Given the laws in Oklahoma - you may assume that anyone that you observe wearing a holstered handgun in public is most likely authorized by the State of Oklahoma to do so. If such a person patronizing your business gives you cause for concern you have the right to either ask them to leave - or conceal the weapon.

    Licensed open carry is the law in Oklahoma. Wise - and successful - merchants ( like Walmart ) determine policies by whatever the State law provides.

    You may not have any choice about allowing open carry if the landlord can legally restrict firearms from the property.

    If that is the case - simply tell your patrons that OC is not allowed and leave it at that.

    You are going to lose a lot of business posting a no guns sign.

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    As long as the landlord doesn't mandate the sign itself, take it down. If someone comes in Open Carrying pull them aside and inform them that you personally have no problem with the firearm in your business but sadly you are contractually obligated not to allow them per the terms of your lease. Then say something like... "So if I SEE one I am contractually obligated to ask the carrier to remove it from the mall property.... But if I don't SEE it, then of course I can't ask for it's removal. So maybe you could go *wink* "put it in your car" *wink*, and we can get on with our business."

    But keep the guy that made a scene trespassed.

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    The OP might be contractually obligated to maintain a policy prohibiting guns, but enforcement is another story.

    What are his legal obligations with regard to enforcement? Is mere promulgation of said policy adequate? Does the lease require the leaseholder to inspect patrons' belt lines?

    I have a very, very difficult time imagining how a landlord might successfully manage an eviction over such an "obligation". How could it be practicable to prove a failure to maintain (or even enforce) a policy?
    Last edited by marshaul; 03-10-2014 at 02:47 AM.

  12. #12
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    The OP might be contractually obligated to maintain a policy prohibiting guns, but enforcement is another story.

    What are his legal obligations with regard to enforcement? Is mere promulgation of said policy adequate? Does the lease require the leaseholder to inspect patrons' belt lines?

    I have a very, very difficult time imagining how a landlord might successfully manage an eviction over such an "obligation". How could it be practicable to prove a failure to maintain (or even enforce) a policy?
    I am confused by one of the OP's statements:

    "i own a mall, and i was informed by my landlord that this is his private property...." Suspect he meant that he owns/leases a mall, retail shop.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    A couple of things to note

    1. You are correct about the landlord not being able to require you to support his policy of no guns on the property. You have control over the space you are paying for.

    2. According to state law, if you restrict carry, you are supposed to post such signage.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oklahoma Statute, Title 21, Section 1290.22, Paragraph C
    A property owner, tenant, employer, place of worship or business entity may prohibit any person from carrying a concealed or unconcealed firearm on the property. If the building or property is open to the public, the property owner, tenant, employer, place of worship or business entity shall post signs on or about the property stating such prohibition.
    You could easily post a sign that says something like "No open carry on premises", or "No visible weapons" if you only wanted to prevent open carry.

    3. Being a safe place - being affiliated with a government agency does not make you a government entity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oklahoma Statute, Title 21, Section 1277, Paragraph A, Item 1
    Any structure, building, or office space which is owned or leased by a city, town, county, state, or federal governmental authority for the purpose of conducting business with the public;
    Your space is not being rented by a government agency so the preclusion here does not have any effect. It would be like saying tag agencies are prohibited because the tag agency does business with the government.

    The policies and procedures that DHS may put on you for becoming a safe place may have different requirements, but the law says nothing about businesses that are affiliated with a government program.
    I am not a lawyer and nothing I say should be accepted as legal advice

  14. #14
    Regular Member cjohnson44546's Avatar
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    pro-gun signs... and anti-gun signs can both cause you issues with customers. Your best bet is just have no signs about it at all. If someone just happens to open carry... and someone other customer complains, then treat it on a case by case basis.

  15. #15
    Regular Member rushcreek2's Avatar
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    Any wise, and prudent person operates under the presumption that any other persons with whom they cross paths in the public arena may very well be armed with a deadly weapon.

    The bulk of these presumably armed individuals are well meaning people merely exercising their right to go armed in case they are confronted by a criminal threat of some kind. By the same measure, it is reasonable to assume that a few of these armed individuals with whom we share the public square are in fact criminals.

    The notion that any invocation of "policy" can effectively ensure that no one armed with some sort of deadly weapon will present - let alone that "safety" can be ensured - is utterly preposterous. So - in short - this whole exercise of designating "gun free zones" in the absence of strip searches at all entry points amounts to nothing more than the erection of a meaningless "scarecrow" that will scare away more COMMERCE than it will guns.

  16. #16
    Regular Member HPmatt's Avatar
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    Probably ought to look at your Lease Agreement first and see if it addresses anything about OC or CC. If it does, then you probably need to see if the clause is legally valid and binding. Wouldn't suggest raising an issue w Landlord till you know where things stand relative to law, and who would pay to fix things. Another area w/b your insurance agent, what is covered under policy, liability, etc. Finally there probably is an OK state business assn that has researched these things for similarly situated businesses like yours.

    If your lease doesn't address the issue, see previous posters advice....
    “Men live without other security than what their own strength and their own invention shall furnish them"
    -Thomas Hobbes 1651

  17. #17
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjohnson44546 View Post
    pro-gun signs... and anti-gun signs can both cause you issues with customers. Your best bet is just have no signs about it at all. If someone just happens to open carry... and someone other customer complains, then treat it on a case by case basis.
    Agreed. To me this "issue" seems wholly manufactured.

    If a customer is causing a scene and generally being disruptive, ask him to leave (especially if he is explicitly stating his unwillingness to spend money in your establishment). That has nothing to do, frankly, with whether the individual is armed.

    But you can't win by taking sides in advance. It seems to me that the OP is looking for an excuse or a justification to take an action which represent the "easy way out" but over which he is conflicted.

    Very few businesses feel a need to prohibit carry, and even fewer have found a need to distinguish between open and concealed carry. IMO, the OP is letting a few rather pushy individuals force him into action where none is necessary.

  18. #18
    Regular Member okiephlyer's Avatar
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    First - This is an Open Carry forum, so expect people to be pro-OC. Most here are very nice people to talk to and deal with. There are the few hot heads.

    Second - As to your business being a "Safe Place" - Quik Trip has hundreds of stores in Oklahoma that are designated as "Safe Place". QT does not prohibit firearms, open or concealed.

    Third - Have any of your customers actually spoken to you and said they are afraid of firearms? My experience, as well as a lot of others on this forum, is that most people never see a weapon, even the openly carried weapon.

    Fourth - You bring up the "shoot the guy with the gun first" scenario. This is a myth perpetuated by both the concealed only crowd and the anti gun crowd. While it is possible, history shows us that it doesn't happen. Education is the key to understanding.

    Fourth - The jerk you mentioned is just that, a jerk. Please don't lump all OC'ers in the same group as him, and please don't build a reaction plan around his encounter. In business, and life, you cannot please everyone. Forget about this jerk and do what you want with your business.

    Welcome to the forum.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 03-15-2014 at 05:27 PM. Reason: Fixed formatting, paragraphs

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by i want to know more View Post
    i grew up in brooklyn and in a bad part of it for that matter, and truth of situation for my personal experiences was that the man with the obvious gun was the first you take out.
    Nonsense. The experience of basically the entire world is that criminals prefer unarmed and other apparently weak targets.

    Considering that OC has been illegal in Brooklyn during your entire conceivable lifetime, it's difficult to imagine how you might develop any experience with the typical criminal's reaction to passive OC. Why? Because it's supremely difficult to imagine any visibly-armed person in Brooklyn behaving in a passive (reactive) manner. How folks react when there is already conflict and already a gun present in that conflict is of little use in analyzing how folks might react before the conflict starts.

    The number of cases of individuals OCing who have been in any way "targeted" for having a gun is on the order of magnitude 10.

    On the other hand, the number of cases of individuals CCing who have been "targeted" despite having a gun is easily in the many, many thousands. Now, one could just as fairly say that these individuals are targeted for being (apparently) unarmed, as one could say that any OCer has been targeting for being armed.

    That being the case, it is the experience of everyone that one is immeasurably more likely to become a target "for" CC than one is to become a target "for" OC.

    QED.

    (The frequency with which members of the "gun community" somehow fail to reach the conclusion of this indisputable line of reasoning is evidence of nothing more than the absolute inadequacy of "popular wisdom".)
    Last edited by marshaul; 03-15-2014 at 02:09 PM.

  20. #20
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by i want to know more

    i grew up in brooklyn and in a bad part of it for that matter, and truth of situation for my personal experiences was that the man with the obvious gun was the first you take out.
    There may be some truth to that..........between rival gangs or individual members of same in open warfare.

    Finding one (1) instance of an honest OCer preemptively taken out as a result of OCing will tax you beyond normal limits - never has happened, so knock yourself out. Excluded are LEO, military and security, and only in these United States in modern times. Some day it has to happen, but it will be an infinitesimally small numerical ratio when a valid cite is found.

    We see no reason to wait for the results of your searches, but we'll be here.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  21. #21
    Regular Member cjohnson44546's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    There may be some truth to that..........between rival gangs or individual members of same in open warfare.

    Finding one (1) instance of an honest OCer preemptively taken out as a result of OCing will tax you beyond normal limits - never has happened, so knock yourself out. Excluded are LEO, military and security, and only in these United States in modern times. Some day it has to happen, but it will be an infinitesimally small numerical ratio when a valid cite is found.

    We see no reason to wait for the results of your searches, but we'll be here.
    I'd like to see numbers on how many OCers have been burglarized. Another one I hear is that criminals who want to steal some guns will follow you to see where you live so they can break in and steal your stuff when you aren't home.

  22. #22
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    Personally I won't patronize a store that has a "No Guns" or "No OC" sign if I can help it. I 100% understand that you have the right to put up such a sign, but you must realize that I also have the right to do business elsewhere. By telling you I am letting you know why you aren't getting my business so that you can make a more informed choice as to how to run your business.

    Case in point. Brigadoons in MWC has a "No OC" sign. Prior to it going up I talked to them about the subject. Initially they said it was because they didn't want "yahoos" showing off their guns and passing them around and what not. After politely saying that such things don't happen in other OC states (this was while waiting on the OC law to go into effect in OK) and that they could always ask those creating a problem to leave, they changed their story to "it's an insurance thing" which I HIGHLY doubt their insurance mentions OC at all (especially given that at the time OC wasn't even legal yet). Once we were done talking I told them that while I disagree with them, I respect their choice but won't be shopping there anymore. This also meant that I didn't fly a flag for them while deployed as I wasn't going to both buy a flag (they hadn't given me one) and then fly it for a store that didn't fully respect my rights (though I respect their rights to put up such a sign). Almost a year later I went by and they still had the sign, so to me that says that they have accepted the loss in business over their views.

    As for you, you have to go with what you believe in so long as it is legal. But also remember that you have the right to remove people who are causing an issue. To me, putting up a sign that says "No OC" says that you don't really support the 2A in its entirety, thus I won't do business with you. What I would do is just not put up a sign and ask anyone who causes a disturbance to leave. Note that if others are offended by an OCer who is minding their own business then THEY are causing the disturbance and NOT the OCer. If your patrons comment on it then either explain to them that what the person is doing is legal and you're simply respecting their rights, or put up a sign and realize that you're risking losing business because of it.

    As this is an OC forum feel free to learn about why we prefer to OC instead of CC. While I'm sure for some it is to be "flashy" (even if they won't admit it), for the vast majority that has nothing to do with it.

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