Jurisdictions should provide official Firearms Guides

ChristCrusader · Mar 10, 2014

skidmark said:
TL/DR.

then are you qualified to comment?

skidmark said:
If you are willing to pay for an advisory opinion regarding case law and how it shapes the interpretation and enforcement of any particular statute, either become a legal scholar (of such ability as satisfies your desires) or hire an attorney to do the research for you and ten tell you what they think the courts meant about how the statute(s) passed by the legislative body ought to be interpreted until the next time a case comes up.

I've seen lawyers pitch a good sell, only to be summarily shot down in court... that'll be $2.50 please, next case. I'd like it straight from the asses' mouths, what the deal is. I've already paid for the legislators who made the crap. I'm already paying for the lawyers who will prosecute the crap. And I'm paying for the incarceration facilities for those who fall victim to the crap. I want something for my money up front, a full disclosure infringement expose so I don't get arrested for things like being on a family nature walk or picnic for a regulation authorized by a code creating an organization about hunting ;-)

skidmark said:
The OP shows that they lean stongly towards the Progesssive notion of The Government needing to tell us everything about everything, and shows a desire for The Government to solve a problem regardless of the cost or the utility of the solution they demand.

I count myself as conservative/libertarian. The problem is the infringements government has already created and scattered throughout their numerous laws. I demand that they assemble them into a single presentation.

skidmark said:
I'm going to let the curve develop before I make any decision about trollness but quite honestly it does seem that the small sample available does suggest a trend.

Sorry if misunderstanding is flagging that concern. If it's merely disagreement, then so be it.

Grapeshot · Mar 10, 2014

DrMark said:
Grapeshot, if you talk to it or feed it, it will keep coming back.

The is occasionally a madness to my method. What a person does with offered rope is of their own choosing.

TFred · Mar 11, 2014

A few thoughts...

First and by far the most important: It really doesn't matter. As the saying goes, you never win the argument on the side of the road - even if you are 100% sure that they are 100% wrong. You take notes, carry a DVR, cooperate to the extent required by law, don't do anything that will get you killed by a spooked cop, and sort it all out in court with the help of a good attorney.

Most governments do not have the information you are asking for them to provide. I would hazard a fair bet that the top 20% of the regulars here know more about gun laws at all levels of government than any average government employee who would be tasked with authoring such a document.

Finally, even if they did know, there is no reason to assume that what they provided would be accurate, honestly compiled, or complete. There are many laws where the nitty gritty details are constantly under debate, and will always be so. Simply no way to sum up the entirety of the codes plus the case history in one list or volume of information.

TFred

davidmcbeth · Mar 11, 2014

Grapeshot said:
Surely you do not mean to abolish the Constitution?

Go back to the articles of confederation? I'm game!

skidmark · Mar 11, 2014

ChristCrusader said:
then are you qualified to comment?

....

Interpreting "TL/DR" in the most literal sense, are you? Apparently I should have instead stated that I skimmed the OP until neither my stomach nor my brain could not take any more.

If you are looking for the law to say "2+2=4 and there is no other possible answer" then you know nothing about the law. If you had any knowledge of how legal interpretation works you would realize that your request could be reduced to a pocket-sized card only if your pocket was as big as a dumpster. Arriving at the product you request is like coming up with a response to the question of whether you have stopped eating little children yet.

stay safe.

ChristCrusader · Mar 11, 2014

skidmark said:
Interpreting "TL/DR" in the most literal sense, are you? Apparently I should have instead stated that I skimmed the OP until neither my stomach nor my brain could not take any more.

My bad, sry... I was in code/ordinance mode of interpreting literally and at face value what I was reading. I should have inferred your meaning, I'm slow to switch modes back and forth.

skidmark said:
If you are looking for the law to say "2+2=4 and there is no other possible answer" then you know nothing about the law. If you had any knowledge of how legal interpretation works you would realize that your request could be reduced to a pocket-sized card only if your pocket was as big as a dumpster. Arriving at the product you request is like coming up with a response to the question of whether you have stopped eating little children yet.

No matter how big it is, it can probably fit into a pdf on my phone, so pocket sized is achievable nowadays

Earlier warnings were valid, as to not allowing AG's, LE, or politicians the invitation to start writing law or policies by way of expressing opinions in the process of creating a guide, but merely assemblying the existing statutes, rules, regulations, ordinances, case law, and relevant AG opinions together would serve everyone, LEO, legislators, and most of all civilians.

NC's introductory paragraph to their guide states it pretty well, I think:

"This publication is designed to assemble and present the basic firearms and weapons laws of North Carolina in an effort to educate and emphasize for the public, the responsibilities and duties pertaining to the possession and use of firearms and related weapons in North Carolina. Most of the guidelines regarding the use, possession, and transfer of firearms in this publication are based upon statutory authority, case law, and Attorney General opinions."

TFred · Mar 11, 2014

By the way, the link in the OP is broken, a bug in the forum software that sometimes substitutes the short version of the text for the link itself.

Always better to use the link tool when you add links:

North Carolina Firearms Laws

TFred

Grapeshot · Mar 11, 2014

ChristCrusader said:
My bad, sry... I was in code/ordinance mode of interpreting literally and at face value what I was reading. I should have inferred your meaning, I'm slow to switch modes back and forth.

No matter how big it is, it can probably fit into a pdf on my phone, so pocket sized is achievable nowadays

Earlier warnings were valid, as to not allowing AG's, LE, or politicians the invitation to start writing law or policies by way of expressing opinions in the process of creating a guide, but merely assemblying the existing statutes, rules, regulations, ordinances, case law, and relevant AG opinions together would serve everyone, LEO, legislators, and most of all civilians.

NC's introductory paragraph to their guide states it pretty well, I think:

"This publication is designed to assemble and present the basic firearms and weapons laws of North Carolina in an effort to educate and emphasize for the public, the responsibilities and duties pertaining to the possession and use of firearms and related weapons in North Carolina. Most of the guidelines regarding the use, possession, and transfer of firearms in this publication are based upon statutory authority, case law, and Attorney General opinions."

Relevant/related statutes, rules, regulations, ordinances, AG opinions are already easily accessible. Case law too, to some degree.

However the resultant material would likely resemble the following images:

I have no intention of "holding court in the street." ymmv

Observation: In any court case, the attorneys involved are right/win exactly 50% of the time

ChristCrusader · Mar 11, 2014

Another perspective and comparison: being an electrician, I'm used to referencing a readily accessible Electrical Code Book whenever needed, that covers installation, maintenance, and manufacturing standards of electrical equipment. Electricians, inspectors (enforcers), and local legislative jurisdictions (can) use it so that everyone stays on the same page. The concept is not alien, never been done, or (imho) unreasonable. ~and I have an Electrical Code copy on my phone

Again, rather than the pics ^^ above, the idea is to assemble all of the scattered firearms rules into an organized, indexed, single compendium on firearms, applicable to the jurisdiction.

The lift of the ban of firearms in National Parks, for crying out loud, is in the Credit Card Accountability Responsibility and Disclosure Act of 2009, go figure, lol!

which is different than state parks, which is different than state forests, which is different than...

I keep coming back to "shall not infringe" is both exhaustive and simple enough at the same time, weary sigh...

peter nap · Mar 11, 2014

ChristCrusader said:
I don't see that extent being required, only notification to DGIF prior to enforcement:

§ 15.2-915.2. Regulation of transportation of a loaded rifle or shotgun.
The governing body of any county or city may by ordinance make it unlawful for any person to transport, possess or carry a loaded shotgun or loaded rifle in any vehicle on any public street, road, or highway within such locality. Any violation of such ordinance shall be punishable by a fine of not more than $100. Conservation police officers, sheriffs and all other law-enforcement officers shall enforce the provisions of this section. No ordinance adopted pursuant to this section shall be enforceable unless the governing body adopting such ordinance so notifies the Director of the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries by registered mail prior to May 1 of the year in which such ordinance is to take effect.

Doesn't surprise me one bit but I'm not getting into one of your "are we there yet threads" You asked, I answered...accept it or not. Maybe you can go tell the GA how to operate next year!

Grapeshot · Mar 11, 2014

ChristCrusader said:
--snipped--
Again, rather than the pics ^^ above, the idea is to assemble all of the scattered firearms rules into an organized, indexed, single compendium on firearms, applicable to the jurisdiction.

I keep coming back to "shall not infringe" is both exhaustive and simple enough at the same time, weary sigh...

Informal, but fairly rigid forum rule - you thunk of it, you do it.

Please post a link here, together with annotations and cross references when complete and you are satisfied with it. We shall review and critique.

Meanwhile, I shall proceed to assimilate information in a manner that works for me on an everyday basis AND keep my preferred attorney on speed dial.

davidmcbeth · Mar 11, 2014

Grapeshot said:
Informal, but fairly rigid forum rule - you thunk of it, you do it.

Please post a link here, together with annotations and cross references when complete and you are satisfied with it. We shall review and critique.

Meanwhile, I shall proceed to assimilate information in a manner that works for me on an everyday basis AND keep my preferred attorney on speed dial.

AFT already does this .... their yearly guide

skidmark · Mar 11, 2014

ChristCrusader said:
Another perspective and comparison: being an electrician, I'm used to referencing a readily accessible Electrical Code Book whenever needed, that covers installation, maintenance, and manufacturing standards of electrical equipment. Electricians, inspectors (enforcers), and local legislative jurisdictions (can) use it so that everyone stays on the same page. The concept is not alien, never been done, or (imho) unreasonable. ~and I have an Electrical Code copy on my phone

Again, rather than the pics ^^ above, the idea is to assemble all of the scattered firearms rules into an organized, indexed, single compendium on firearms, applicable to the jurisdiction.

The lift of the ban of firearms in National Parks, for crying out loud, is in the Credit Card Accountability Responsibility and Disclosure Act of 2009, go figure, lol!

which is different than state parks, which is different than state forests, which is different than...

I keep coming back to "shall not infringe" is both exhaustive and simple enough at the same time, weary sigh...

Apples to oranges comparison. Everybody agrees on what the Electrical Code is, even if they disregard it.

And the lifting of the ban on firearms in National Parks is where it is because it was necessary to slip it into something that the opposition was not willing to lose over that little detail. Sumguy (was it Kaiser Bill?) said that if you knew how laws and sausages are made you would never swallow either.

There's a chance you will efentually catch on to how things happen, as opposed to how they ought to happen if they followed a straight, linear form of logic. But then, even Euclidian Logic takes some bizzare twists. Personally, I think it is so the Jesuists can stay in business.

stay safe.

ChristCrusader · Mar 11, 2014

skidmark said:
Apples to oranges comparison. Everybody agrees on what the Electrical Code is, even if they disregard it.

And the lifting of the ban on firearms in National Parks is where it is because it was necessary to slip it into something that the opposition was not willing to lose over that little detail. Sumguy (was it Kaiser Bill?) said that if you knew how laws and sausages are made you would never swallow either.

There's a chance you will efentually catch on to how things happen, as opposed to how they ought to happen if they followed a straight, linear form of logic. But then, even Euclidian Logic takes some bizzare twists.

I've learned before how the NPS thing got there, and I'm glad it did.
But I despair walking out my door carrying, facing legislation scattered under hundreds of categories, sometimes once or twice removed from a firearms topic, most of which are not intuitive. Jurisdictions need to assemble them together in a presentation, however or wherever they were passed, and from wherever they currently reside.

and no, not everyone agrees how to interpret or implement the Electrical code, but there are far fewer disagreements and misunderstandings than without it.

davidmcbeth: Thanks for the ATF guide heads up

skidmark · Mar 12, 2014

Dispair away. It may be the best option for you.

While the ATF citation offers some (let me stress: SOME) information, it is nowhere near the encyclopedic coverage the OP seems to be asking for.

Also for the OP - while a PDF formatted list may allow you to carry it on your smartphone, the question is how you are going to cross-reference everything. As you noted, some of the rules are tucked away in places with no real connection to firearms except someone stuck an amendment in there. Shepardizing http://www.wikihow.com/Shepardize-a-Case a firearms/gun rights/guncontrol/etc. ad nauseum case is a legal aide's/paralegal's worst nightmare. BTW - please accept mention of Shepard's as a hint on how you might go about accomplishing some part of your goal.

stay safe.

ChristCrusader · Mar 12, 2014

skidmark said:
Also for the OP - while a PDF formatted list may allow you to carry it on your smartphone, the question is how you are going to cross-reference everything. As you noted, some of the rules are tucked away in places with no real connection to firearms except someone stuck an amendment in there.

My pdf of the electrical code is wonderfully cross referenced, with clickable links to warp me to cited references; is searchable; and has a great table of contents in logical order, and an effective index.
The same way the electrical code is themed, I want the jurisdictional firearms guide to be themed on firearms, having already extracted the relevant laws, regs, and ordinances out of their hiding places and assemble them together, sans unrelated junk, except a reference from what unrelated junk pile it came out of, and placed in good order.

skidmark said:
Shepardizing http://www.wikihow.com/Shepardize-a-Case a firearms/gun rights/guncontrol/etc. ad nauseum case is a legal aide's/paralegal's worst nightmare. BTW - please accept mention of Shepard's as a hint on how you might go about accomplishing some part of your goal.

I'll check it out, but I thought NC put forth a good effort without being more nauseous than the infringements themselves.

Running Wolf · Mar 12, 2014

skidmark said:
TL/DR.

If you are willing to pay for an advisory opinion regarding case law and how it shapes the interpretation and enforcement of any particular statute, either become a legal scholar (of such ability as satisfies your desires) or hire an attorney to do the research for you and ten tell you what they think the courts meant about how the statute(s) passed by the legislative body ought to be interpreted until the next time a case comes up.

The OP shows that they lean stongly towards the Progesssive notion of The Government needing to tell us everything about everything, and shows a desire for The Government to solve a problem regardless of the cost or the utility of the solution they demand.

I'm going to let the curve develop before I make any decision about trollness but quite honestly it does seem that the small sample available does suggest a trend.

stay safe.

Admit it Skidmark, you're just against the idea because you don't want to be required to hand out leaflets to every kid walking by, in triplicate, explaining the rules and regulations around the edict: Get off my lawn!

ChristCrusader · Mar 12, 2014

skidmark said:
Shepardizing http://www.wikihow.com/Shepardize-a-Case a firearms/gun rights/guncontrol/etc. ad nauseum case is a legal aide's/paralegal's worst nightmare. BTW - please accept mention of Shepard's as a hint on how you might go about accomplishing some part of your goal.

That was really sweet!
'til I got lost @ guide step #2

2 Choose the appropriate Shepard’s Citator, the one that matches your case’s reporter.

That method's not going to come too easy if I can't get past step #2. But it's nice to know that there's a method out there. I'll keep an eye out for how to use that.

scouser · Mar 13, 2014

ChristCrusader said:
The same way the electrical code is themed, I want the jurisdictional firearms guide to be themed on firearms, having already extracted the relevant laws, regs, and ordinances out of their hiding places and assemble them together, sans unrelated junk, except a reference from what unrelated junk pile it came out of, and placed in good order.

when YOU write the guide, YOU can set it up however you want

skidmark · Mar 13, 2014

ChristCrusader said:
My pdf of the electrical code is wonderfully cross referenced, with clickable links to warp me to cited references; is searchable; and has a great table of contents in logical order, and an effective index.
The same way the electrical code is themed, I want the jurisdictional firearms guide to be themed on firearms, having already extracted the relevant laws, regs, and ordinances out of their hiding places and assemble them together, sans unrelated junk, except a reference from what unrelated junk pile it came out of, and placed in good order.
....

Want in one hand and - well, you know the rest of that saying.

In case you were not aware of it, one of the many reasons that The Law is not themed, wonderfully cross-referenced, with clickable links and a great table of contents and an effective index is because the folks who write, who enforce, and who interpret The Law do not particularly want you to know precisely what it is. It's darned hard to control people when they know what the rules and boundaries and limitations are, in spite of what Ceasar Milan says about that working for dogs.

But, since you have expressed your heart's desire, please keep us updated o your progress in bringing it about. If you ask nicely you might get some technical assistance. But if you are expecting to wait and have someone else make this dream document of yours magically appear .... If you believe that NC's effort was acceptable, why not flatter them by copying their format?

Get to it, kid. We are waiting.

stay safe.

Jurisdictions should provide official Firearms Guides

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