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Thread: Cop kills own pregnant wife cleaning gun.

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Cop kills own pregnant wife cleaning gun.

    http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20...shot_wife.html

    How not to clean your gun? Or something more sinister?

  2. #2
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    No charges have been filed.
    Why?

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Another moron with a gun. He not only pulled the trigger on a loaded gun before safety checking, he pointed it in a unsafe direction.

    Some people are just not competent enough to handle firearms, and Glocks are less forgiving of stupidity.
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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Why?
    Why no charge? Oh, dear, he's been through enough, why add negligent homicide? /sarcasm

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    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    Why no charge? Oh, dear, he's been through enough, why add negligent homicide? /sarcasm
    I hate this double-standard. If it were someone without a shiny badge, they'd be in a cage right now.

    Let's see what excuse is used for not charging this man. If a negligent discharge happens in the area to a badge-less citizen, I hope recordings of the statement are used to defend said citizen.
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Young Man View Post
    I hate this double-standard. If it were someone without a shiny badge, they'd be in a cage right now.

    Let's see what excuse is used for not charging this man. If a negligent discharge happens in the area to a badge-less citizen, I hope recordings of the statement are used to defend said citizen.
    ? There's two other threads on here right now discussing NDs that caused injury or death.

    The one with the guy finds a gun in the clothing and it "strikes his hand" which kills the girl with a shot to the chest. And the one where the guy shoots himself in the leg because he has a loaded gun in a bag and drops in on the floor. Pretty sure neither were put in a "cage", especially the one that killed the girl.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...d.php?t=120750

    Here. This guy shot a lady in the chest and killed her. He wasn't a cop and didn't go to jail.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...d.php?t=120750

    Here. This guy shot a lady in the chest and killed her. He wasn't a cop and didn't go to jail.

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    Completely different set of circumstance and you know this. The cop was cleaning his gun and killed his wife. He should have known better, a trained professional. Charge him and let the DA not prosecute and explain the reason for not proceeding. LE must charge to ensure that all parties do their job. I will have no issues if the DA, based on the facts, does not prosecute.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...d.php?t=120750

    Here. This guy shot a lady in the chest and killed her. He wasn't a cop and didn't go to jail.
    Not even remotely comparable. You can't prove negligence, let alone criminal culpability, over something like that. It wasn't even his gun! It practically "fell into his lap", and before he had an opportunity to learn about gun safety and handling it discharged.

    In fact, we like to say that an "accidental discharge" is impossible without a malfunction, but this may be exactly the sort of thing which could be legitimately described as an "accident" and not a malfunction.

    One who owns a gun has a responsibility to be aware of safety, and is negligent for failing to do so. This can hardly be said about someone who has never owned or fired a gun before.

    On the other hand, we have a "trained professional" who shoots his wife with his own .45. You're damn right he's culpable. I would expect no less were I in his shoes (which is probably a small part of why I'll never end up in his shoes, but that's another story).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    Why no charge? Oh, dear, he's been through enough, why add negligent homicide? /sarcasm
    You mean why no chargeS .. plural. Unborn have rights not to expect to be shot in the head.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Completely different set of circumstance and you know this. The cop was cleaning his gun and killed his wife. He should have known better, a trained professional. Charge him and let the DA not prosecute and explain the reason for not proceeding. LE must charge to ensure that all parties do their job. I will have no issues if the DA, based on the facts, does not prosecute.
    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Not even remotely comparable. You can't prove negligence, let alone criminal culpability, over something like that. It wasn't even his gun! It practically "fell into his lap", and before he had an opportunity to learn about gun safety and handling it discharged.

    In fact, we like to say that an "accidental discharge" is impossible without a malfunction, but this may be exactly the sort of thing which could be legitimately described as an "accident" and not a malfunction.

    One who owns a gun has a responsibility to be aware of safety, and is negligent for failing to do so. This can hardly be said about someone who has never owned or fired a gun before.

    On the other hand, we have a "trained professional" who shoots his wife with his own .45. You're damn right he's culpable. I would expect no less were I in his shoes (which is probably a small part of why I'll never end up in his shoes, but that's another story).
    So what about the guy that drops his bag and the gun goes off in the bag? He knew gun was there?

    And...... in think you guys missed the point. He was pissed that the Leo didn't get charged assuming and presenting it as if because he wasn't charged because he was Leo. I presented another case where a gun went off and killed another person negligently. Period.

    How do you weed these out? Oh if you have cpl, Ltc, ccl (w/e state your in) then you get charged since your trained? Do you only get charged if your "holding" the gun as opposed to it "hitting" your hand? If you don't have license do you automatically get in charges since your not "trained" so you have a "defense"? Can you say "I didn't know my gun was is in that jacket"? What excuse works? A person is still dead. And supposedly its an accident.

    Cmon... two people dead due to negligence. Neither guy charged. Iits supposed to be all is fair and these two cases its the sane result.

    Finally, so...... your saying you believe the gun fell from about waist height hit a hand and went off? Or even hit the ground and went off and perfectly shot her center mass? Really guys? You can't see a bad cover story? Read the other thread everyone else is calling BS.



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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    And don't get this twisted... I think both parties get charged.

    You touch gun+someone dead-some kind of duty to shoot (self defense in your home maybe) = charges. Period. For Leo and citizens.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Let's take the emotional aspect of guns out of the equation.

    A guy's cleaning the oven (yeah, as if!) and the fumes cause his wife and unborn child to die.
    A woman is baking a cake and instead of baking soda, she accidentally uses rat poison and her husband dies.
    One spouse is driving a car, runs a traffic signal and T-bones the other spouse's vehicle, killing them.


    Should anyone be charged for these tragic, but absolutely non-intentional deaths?

  14. #14
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Let's take the emotional aspect of guns out of the equation.

    A guy's cleaning the oven (yeah, as if!) and the fumes cause his wife and unborn child to die.
    A woman is baking a cake and instead of baking soda, she accidentally uses rat poison and her husband dies.
    One spouse is driving a car, runs a traffic signal and T-bones the other spouse's vehicle, killing them.


    Should anyone be charged for these tragic, but absolutely non-intentional deaths?
    The vehicle thing, yes all day. The other two maybe not. Not always clear cut but that's the point.

    I'm no implying charge anyone for every death they are involved in. That's too broad of a stroke. We were talking one particular method. That particular method IMO yes charge.

    If you can't handle to responsibility to safely handle it then you shouldn't be near it. And for the crazy "oops it wasn't mine it appeared in a pocket bounced off the floor and shot her point blank center mass" then when it goes to court it'll get sorted out. Either by the da dropping charges or going to trial and a jury or judge saying "damn appearing guns they just magically to off and kill people when then touch hands or hit floors".

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    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    ? There's two other threads on here right now discussing NDs that caused injury or death.

    The one with the guy finds a gun in the clothing and it "strikes his hand" which kills the girl with a shot to the chest. And the one where the guy shoots himself in the leg because he has a loaded gun in a bag and drops in on the floor. Pretty sure neither were put in a "cage", especially the one that killed the girl.

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    I should have specified "badge-less ARMED citizen". My bad.
    The case where the the gun was in the clothes and "it fell to the floor and shot itself" killing someone may or may not have been a failure in the firearm mechanism, it may or may not have been an absent-minded pull of the trigger ("the movies say you put your finger on this little thingy"), and it may or may not have included criminal intent; I don't know.*

    What I'm referring to is the fact that an armed citizen is expected to know how to safely handle the firearm (indeed, some states require a costly permission slip with a rubber-stamp "trained" as a requirement to practice a fundamental Right, but that is another story). Why not the officer in this case?

    An accident would entail a failure within the gun's firing mechanism itself (unlikely in today's modern firearms, but still possible), which is why one should ALWAYS employ the four (3) rules of firearm safety. Redundancy without handicap is the key to their effectiveness and practicality.
    So maybe the surprise gun was an accident, assuming the person either knew nothing of firearms (in which case it is ignorance that caused that death), or the firing mechanism failed (unlikely, but possible). In the case of the dropped bag gun, it may have been an accident if it was failure in the firing mechanism (again, unlikely but possible), seeing as it wasn't in his direct control. But it would have been negligence if it was left with the safety off and with the trigger exposed.

    But if it is YOUR (possessive) firearm, you should know at least the basics in terms of safe handling. In that moment, it is under your direct control, and you are responsible for what happens. Wouldn't an armed citizen expect to get slapped with a "negligent discharge within city limits" for it? THAT is what I don't like.
    Negligence is negligence, ESPECIALLY in cases committed by those who should be expected to know how to safely handle firearms, and more so when they were trained on the taxpayers' dime to do so.

    *Add.
    But I do believe the story is pretty fishy, as Primus points out here, and various posters on that thread elaborate on.
    Last edited by Rusty Young Man; 03-10-2014 at 08:31 PM. Reason: Addendum, clarification
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke

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    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Let's take the emotional aspect of guns out of the equation.

    A guy's cleaning the oven (yeah, as if!) and the fumes cause his wife and unborn child to die.
    A woman is baking a cake and instead of baking soda, she accidentally uses rat poison and her husband dies.
    One spouse is driving a car, runs a traffic signal and T-bones the other spouse's vehicle, killing them.


    Should anyone be charged for these tragic, but absolutely non-intentional deaths?
    1) Negligence if it was used in an enclosed or still-air area; the can explicitly states "use in a well ventilated area" and lists some of the effects which could result from ignoring the warning. If precautions were taken, but death still resulted, accident.
    2) Negligence, unless the poison was placed there by someone who was counting on the wife not discerning the true contents of the container, in which case it is and accident by the wife, and murder (but not by the wife; she was just an unwitting accomplice). This is exactly the reason why you don't:
    Store 20 gauge shells together with 12 gauge shells
    Store hydrogen peroxide in water bottles in the refrigerator or the pantry
    Store toxins or poisonous chemicals with food
    3) Negligence. Disregarding a traffic signal meant to decrease the likelihood of a collision in a collision-prone section (intersection) of the roadways. It isn't like choosing not to wear your seatbelt, since running red lights or stop signs places others at risk.

    Add.
    So to answer directly: probably not on 1, yes on 2 (either negligence or murder, but someone is likely going to be charged, unless the deceased was the one who decided to put the poison with the baking soda, then it is just one of those urban myth-worthy tales), and a big YES on 3.
    Last edited by Rusty Young Man; 03-10-2014 at 08:30 PM. Reason: Addendum
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    I think the "bag gun" was a Derringer. Not the safest of weapon designs. The thrift store incident only says .22 pistol. Who knows.

    A cop cleaning his .45 shoots his wife, tragic accident, giving the benefit of the doubt, but charges must be filed. Let the DA figure out the next move.

    Suffered enough, sure, but who suffers the most he or we?

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    The guy made, like five safety errors. Bullets in the room, cleaning a gun with a person in the room, not checking before disassembling, pointing it at a person, and then pulling the trigger not pointed in a safe direction. Clearly enough for a charge of Negligent homicide. A regular citizen would have been charged. Does that mean the cop should have been charged, or neither? No. The sequence of events is not accidental or even surprising.

    Besides that, given a horizontal through and through, I don't buy that story on the face of it.
    Last edited by Maverick9; 03-10-2014 at 11:42 PM.

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    Nobody, Nowhere, Nohow, No matter how they are or are not trained.
    Should get of a charge of reckless endangerment or involuntary manslaughter excused,
    using the excuse of "I thought the gun was unloaded"!

    Period!



    ETA,,, Oh look,,, 10 posts!
    Now I can haz star?
    Yes, yes I can haz star,
    there see it?,,, I do...
    Sooo proud!
    Last edited by Grand Puba; 03-11-2014 at 09:51 AM.

  20. #20
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    The guy made, like five safety errors. Bullets in the room, cleaning a gun with a person in the room, not checking before disassembling, pointing it at a person, and then pulling the trigger not pointed in a safe direction. Clearly enough for a charge of Negligent homicide. A regular citizen would have been charged. Does that mean the cop should have been charged, or neither? No. The sequence of events is not accidental or even surprising.

    Besides that, given a horizontal through and through, I don't buy that story on the face of it.
    Well and good if you have a separate room/facility for cleaning and can do so in complete isolation from others. Most don't and IMHO that is completely unnecessary.

    Cliff Notes for cleaning a semi-automatic pistol:
    1. Unload gun & chamber check, put ammo in safe location, out of reach.
    2. Check a second time to confirm gun is clear.
    3. Disassemble - if glock or similar point in a safe direction when releasing the slide/pulling trigger (sand bucket?)
    4. Proceed to check for wear/damage, then clean and lube, including empty mags.
    5. Reassemble and function check in safe direction.
    6. Reload mags, insert mag, charge chamber, top off mag, reholster gun.
    7. All actions with fully assembed gun must be performed in a safe direction.
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    You do not shoot someone accidentally while cleaning your firearm. You shoot someone accidentally while playing with your firearm.
    No-one changes the oil on a car while it is running, and no-one cleans a loaded firearm. You can, but the results are less than satisfactory.

    I would like to know if he had his cleaning kit out? Had he just returned from the range? Or was cleaning his gun something he did every Friday at 2:30 PM?

    No wonder so many otherwise right thinking but uninformed folks are afraid of firearms. You cannot even clean them without someone dying.
    It is an accidental tragedy. But for Heaven's sake, you are a state trooper, man up and admit that you were playing with your gun and accidently killed your wife and child.

    My point was about the absurdity of a ND while actually cleaning instead of using that as an excuse. substitute 'unintentional' for 'accidental'.
    Last edited by hovercat; 03-11-2014 at 09:51 PM.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    This wasn't 'accidental'; the rules for clearing a firearm before cleaning are 1) well established 2) published in the Glock owner's manual, and I highly suspect, 3) are taught in law enforcement academies. This was negligent conduct that resulted in the death of an innocent person.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    This wasn't 'accidental'; the rules for clearing a firearm before cleaning are 1) well established 2) published in the Glock owner's manual, and I highly suspect, 3) are taught in law enforcement academies. This was negligent conduct that resulted in the death of an innocent person.
    This is pretty much how I am looking at it as well.

    What is negligence for one individual is not uniform for all individuals.

    Tragic accidents are one thing, but I see no way this is not criminal negligence for this individual.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    comments removed by administrator
    Last edited by John Pierce; 03-11-2014 at 11:55 AM. Reason: Inappropriate

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    The guy made, like five safety errors.
    I always say, regarding either the NRA's three or Jeff Cooper's four rules of gun safety, that compliance with any one is enough to at least prevent serious injury.

    That is to say, they're redundant because you have to fail to observe all of them for someone to be hurt. And because, while it may be easy to forget one, an attentive person is unlikely to forget all three (or four) simultaneously.

    With this perspective, it would seem almost that those who have this sort of accident simply don't consider gun safety at all.

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