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Want to know what winds my clock too tight????

OC for ME

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So many things wrong with this statement... And by wrong, I simply mean inconsistent with the principles of liberty. Moreover, it really grinds me in a bad way when people act like I'm not entitled to analyze or to speak negatively of a certain occupation or activity unless I've done it myself. Unless I legally forfeit a significant portion of my rights, intentionally and knowingly subject myself to mistreatment of varying levels, participate in a war machine which may or may not be life-threatening, and which I may or may not find significant moral objections to, then I can't say anything negative about a veteran, or the military, or military policy, or the characteristics or benefits of their occupation, etc... That is complete ********.
There is only one thing "wrong" with his statement, he used (sort of) profanity to make it. And, 1911er's statement is not inconsistent with the principals of liberty. 1911er "analyzed and spoke negatively" of DrakeZ07's liberal rant on the military.

Irony is thick in this thread.
 

MurrayRothbard

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2013
Messages
64
Location
Louisiana
(I am a "Marine brat" and a widowed Navy wife. I wouldn't wish military life or their welfare existence on anyone.)

How about this.... End the theft. All of it.

Own your life and property without paying "rent" to ANY government.
Eliminate every spying, whoring, police state "agency" in the country.
Eliminate every single bureaucratic cesspool bleeding us dry, at every level.
Bring all the troops home, from EVERYWHERE. Close all the bases, especially all foreign bases.
Leave the market alone, period... to rebuild the economy and allow business to create jobs for all who want to work.

The Obummer imperial insanity isn't the root of this problem... it's just one small symptom. Yes indeed, it needs to stop, but that's only one small leak in our sinking boat.

No human being, or group of people, have ANY legitimate authority to control the lives of others, or to steal/control their property.

We don't need "limited government." We need self ownership, self governance, and freedom.

Marry Me Please!
 

DrakeZ07

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Lexington, Ky
There is only one thing "wrong" with his statement, he used (sort of) profanity to make it. And, 1911er's statement is not inconsistent with the principals of liberty. 1911er "analyzed and spoke negatively" of DrakeZ07's liberal rant on the military.

Irony is thick in this thread.

Oh, okay, well at least now I know that unless you're kissing the military's arse, and worshiping their service member's, and adamantly defending the asinine programs, protections, budgets, and benefits that the Military and their families get, then you're obviously a liberal. HOW SILLY OF ME TO FORGET THAT!

According to people like 1911'er, and OC for ME; for not going up to a soldier, and immediately offering them money, my property, my eternal thanks, and possibly******** *** ***** for their pleasure, that make's me an un-Patriotic, Anti-Liberty, Liberal.

Here, let me redeem myself and show how American, and Liberty-minded I am, to better please my Republican counter-parts.

I absolutely love our military forces, and the personal within each branch of service. I think we the people should cut, and slash poverty-programs like Unemployment, which only help people get lazier, and mooch off of the government. We should nix EBT food stamps, because poor people don't matter, they're under-educated and can easily find better jobs that better serve their betters. Let's ban unions, and get rid of a federally, or state-regulated minimum wage, all the while ending the federal reserve and letting banking corporations decide the fate of the dollar because we can trust them, AND they are good people because they give every political money lots of money, like good Americans should! Hey, while we're at it, let's get rid of the Health and Human services, child protective services, and the FDA! Because we can trust all parents to be good examples for children, never putting them in harm, and we all know that the only reason some parents beat and hurt their children, is because there are laws against it, and they want to rebel. The FDA needs to be nixed because we can trust drug companies to automatically have the people's best intentions in mind INSTEAD of worrying about their profits. And why would anyone need much of the first amendment anyway, the only freedom of religion we need in Amerika is the Freedom to worship the Christian god however, and whenever, people wants, and the only free speech the people needs, is the right to assemble, and protest in favour of the Bible to be used to subject non-believers and devil worshipers into compliance with our godly rules!

Now that we saved Amerika from the billions of dollars that would otherwise go into funding those silly poor people who don't need money anyway, they'll just die off and we'll not have to worry about them anymore, although we never cared about them in the first place! We can now send Billions, and Trillions of dollars to the Military! Every strong-blooded, patriotic American knows by heart, that the Navy needs AT-LEAST 25 Super-carriers, and no less than 500 Support war-ships! The Air Force needs and demands that we give them 2500 B-2B bombers and Nighthawks, to help support our soon-to-be 5 Million ground-troop sized army in spreading DEMOCRACY and FREEDOM all around the world, by FORCE! We're gonna LIBERATE the sh*t out of all OPEC and old cold war enemies! We should also give MORE MONEY to the Veterans Affairs, it is the responsibility of ALL AMERICANS to pay for the healthcare of wounded, and old soldiers!

ONE PARTY! ONE GOVERNMENT! ONE PURPOSE!
HAIL VICTORY! HAIL VICTORY! HAIL VICTORY!
 
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OC for ME

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Oh, okay, well at least now I know that unless you're kissing the military's arse, and worshiping their service member's, and adamantly defending the asinine programs, protections, budgets, and benefits that the Military and their families get, then you're obviously a liberal. HOW SILLY OF ME TO FORGET THAT!

According to people like 1911'er, and OC for ME; for not going up to a soldier, and immediately offering them money, my property, my eternal thanks, and possibly offering my mouth for their pleasure, that make's me an un-Patriotic, Anti-Liberty, Liberal.

<snip>
Liberal rantings.....as usual.

Anyway.

Military service is a job, nothing more and nothing less. If those citizens who do serve do not like their "treatment", the conditions of employment, there is a alternative, as there is with any employment situation.

Military service is a noble calling, in my view, and many of our fellow citizens have come and gone who answered that call. Belittling their service and sacrifice is nothing but small mindedness.

Also, interjecting your gayness into this "conversation" is another liberal tactic to deflect from the fact that your view of the military, and the citizens who serve in particular, is in the minority, and possibly the extreme minority.....but, this is America. You are entitled to your opinions.
 

DrakeZ07

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Lexington, Ky
Liberal rantings.....as usual.

Anyway.

Military service is a job, nothing more and nothing less. If those citizens who do serve do not like their "treatment", the conditions of employment, there is a alternative, as there is with any employment situation.

Military service is a noble calling, in my view, and many of our fellow citizens have come and gone who answered that call. Belittling their service and sacrifice is nothing but small mindedness.

Also, interjecting your gayness into this "conversation" is another liberal tactic to deflect from the fact that your view of the military, and the citizens who serve in particular, is in the minority, and possibly the extreme minority.....but, this is America. You are entitled to your opinions.

I wasn't interjecting my sexuality into anything, so next time you try to bait me like that, make sure it's a bit more convincing.

As for the rest of his post, typical Republican trite and tactics, distract and dismiss, while working to make one profession to be god's gift to humanity.

The day the military, as a whole or in some small part, gains a single gram of nobility, and honour, will be the day when I see a member of the military stand up for the rights of citizens, against those government officials within our country, through any means possible. As long as they swear, and maintain their oath, then their lives are forfeit to the needs of individual citizens, and We the People as a whole, against enemies, foreign or DOMESTIC.

Until then, you can go around kissing-arse to the military industrial complex like a good mindless GOP drone; I'll continue going about my way, trying to cause as many waves as I can in places where military-worship is found.
 

OC for ME

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<snip> and possibly ******** ** ***** for their pleasure, <snip>
No convincing by me necessary.

Military service is a job, nothing more and nothing less. If those citizens who do serve do not like their "treatment", the conditions of employment, there is a alternative, as there is with any employment situation.
As I stated, military service is a job, and a noble calling, in my view of course.

Worship? Hardly.
 
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stealthyeliminator

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Texas
There is only one thing "wrong" with his statement, he used (sort of) profanity to make it. And, 1911er's statement is not inconsistent with the principals of liberty. 1911er "analyzed and spoke negatively" of DrakeZ07's liberal rant on the military.

Irony is thick in this thread.

It would seem to me that his position, and yours, is that military service entitles you to social status and government benefits. That is inconsistent with the principles of liberty.

I don't agree with everything DrakeZ07 says. In fact, I probably disagree with almost everything he says. But, I believe he is correct about the attitudes being shown in this thread toward military service. Making great sacrifices for your fellow man is noble, but it doesn't make you nobility, it doesn't entitle you to take benefits provided by the government at the cost of the taxpayer. Furthermore but irrelevant, military service does not even always equate to making great sacrifices for your fellow man. Benefits of military service is what this whole thing is about. The position consistent with the principles of liberty is that there should be no benefits, because taxes are not justifiable and therefore anything, including "government benefits" to military service-members, funded with that tax money is not justifiable.

Raging at DrakeZ07 for "not giving enough respect" to military service-members is... well, it's just that. Have your little rage all you want, I won't stop you, just don't pretend your making any valid points. All your doing is slinging mud (I think that expression is right).
 
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OC for ME

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It would seem to me that his position, and yours, is that military service entitles you to social status and government benefits. That is inconsistent with the principles of liberty.

I don't agree with everything DrakeZ07 says. In fact, I probably disagree with almost everything he says. But, I believe he is correct about the attitudes being shown in this thread toward military service. Making great sacrifices for your fellow man is noble, but it doesn't make you nobility, it doesn't entitle you to take benefits provided by the government at the cost of the taxpayer. Furthermore but irrelevant, military service does not even always equate to making great sacrifices for your fellow man. Benefits of military service is what this whole thing is about. The position consistent with the principles of liberty is that there should be no benefits, because taxes are not justifiable and therefore anything, including "government benefits" to military service-members, funded with that tax money is not justifiable.
Interesting take on what I did not state.

I believe I stated, and you may correct me if I am wrong, that military service is a job, nothing more and nothing less. The service member's employer has chosen to include in the "benefits package" various benefits in exchange for the service provided to the federal government.

The Constitution places the burden on the federal government, and thus We The People, to maintain a army and navy. How the federal government lures citizens into service is certainly up for debate. The benefits package is what the feds use, where as conscription is the only alternative. And, taxes are justified, the current tax system is not, thanks to the 16A. Your definition of liberty, in my view, is inconsistent with the document that enumerates our rights. That protects, or should protect, our rights. I hold the Founders at their word and their wisdom on this specific subject. There is a mechanism to change the "benefits" structure that the feds use. How We The People decide to compensate our services members is, apparently, far too excessive to some.

Agree or disagree, I have no interest. I have stated my views on the military and those who choose to serve. Others hold a different view.
 

Primus

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It would seem to me that his position, and yours, is that military service entitles you to social status and government benefits. That is inconsistent with the principles of liberty.

I don't agree with everything DrakeZ07 says. In fact, I probably disagree with almost everything he says. But, I believe he is correct about the attitudes being shown in this thread toward military service. Making great sacrifices for your fellow man is noble, but it doesn't make you nobility, it doesn't entitle you to take benefits provided by the government at the cost of the taxpayer. Furthermore but irrelevant, military service does not even always equate to making great sacrifices for your fellow man. Benefits of military service is what this whole thing is about. The position consistent with the principles of liberty is that there should be no benefits, because taxes are not justifiable and therefore anything, including "government benefits" to military service-members, funded with that tax money is not justifiable.

Raging at DrakeZ07 for "not giving enough respect" to military service-members is... well, it's just that. Have your little rage all you want, I won't stop you, just don't pretend your making any valid points. All your doing is slinging mud (I think that expression is right).

As others have said, military service is a job. The noble factor comes into play where when you sign the dotted align you are signing your life away for the defense of this country. You are volunteering your mind body and soul for the defense of others. Period.

You mention they may not have to sacrifice any of the above. That's irrelevant. They are saying "take it of you need it". So the government and 99% of the population realize and say..... sure you were willing to get blown up, shot, maimed, etc. For this country so well give you a 10% tax break (if that) on milk and eggs. Seems fair right?

I'll preempt some arguments...

Someone else already said it but it bears repeating, walk in their shoes before you trash talk. Get whacked with an IED and come tell us how you feel. Lose a brother or two. How about this.... even spend ONE day miserable at training. Just one day sleeping in crap solely for someone else.

Don't think for a second we do it for the reduced price bread. That's why its noble.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
 

marshaul

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Fairfax County, Virginia
As others have said, military service is a job. The noble factor comes into play where when you sign the dotted align you are signing your life away for the defense of this country. You are volunteering your mind body and soul for the defense of others. Period.

You mention they may not have to sacrifice any of the above. That's irrelevant. They are saying "take it of you need it". So the government and 99% of the population realize and say..... sure you were willing to get blown up, shot, maimed, etc. For this country so well give you a 10% tax break (if that) on milk and eggs. Seems fair right?

I'll preempt some arguments...

Someone else already said it but it bears repeating, walk in their shoes before you trash talk. Get whacked with an IED and come tell us how you feel. Lose a brother or two. How about this.... even spend ONE day miserable at training. Just one day sleeping in crap solely for someone else.

Don't think for a second we do it for the reduced price bread. That's why its noble.

I would find what you describe far more noble if your logic wasn't dependent on implicitly forcing me to accept that you "defend others" (at least, others who aren't your immediate brothers-in-arms in combat).

I would find it really, really hard to take issue with someone who said "I think it's noble for folks to make sacrifices for what they feel is a greater good".

But when you declare that you are – in no uncertain terms – noble, because you defend me, I hope you'll understand when I tell you exactly which dark hole you can shove your paternalistic crap back into.

There's nothing noble about whining that folks with a different worldview don't respect you.
 
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solus

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(a political rant) The other night on the CBS evening news: a story about how the government is cutting funding to the Military PX. For those of you that do not know what a PX is, it is nothing more than a grocery store often with some clothes, shoes, appliances, and other knick knacks.

Those with military ID can shop there and purchase low cost food (and other items) ...without the mark up, state, or local taxes on the items. As a great many Military families make what would be considered close to the poverty level in their pay, this is a huge help in their family food budget, saving them thousands each year

Back on topic, the government in a cost saving effort is cutting aid to these stores from (round numbers) from the present 1.2 Billion down to 440 million…. So first we cut hot meals to our personnel in the field, now we take the food away from their family????

All this to save money because according to congress woman Nancy Pelosi, there is no place else to cut… REALLY???

How about starting with the billions we send to countries that sponsor terrorism, murder people not of their faith, and burn our flag. How about curtailing our Monarch’s royal family vacations on the tax payer’s dollar? 200 million for the Africa vacation, 100 million for a family trip for the Wife to China with the girls. Or how about the 60 million spent on a recent spring break by the kids to show their friend s good time?

Cut spending Mr. President, good idea but let’s start first at home, AKA your home, and then those that do not like us, hate us, and flat out want us dead!!!

All this happens while the multi generational freeloaders in this country eat steak and lobster, while that those that serve our country, defend it with honor, that they and their family may go hungry... This is both sad and very very sick...

Ok, let's quantify the OP's post...the PX/BX is not selling food stuffs, period. you want to talk foodstuffs, discuss the commissary which is a military commissary agency, AKA a military run enterprise!

the AAFES business entities carry medium to high end clothing, appliances, computers, toys, jewelry, etc. and was brought on line to provide the service member and their family a viable methodology to purchase those creature comfort items when they member is stationed outside the United States.

it morphed to stateside probably due to single service members who were unable to leave the military facilities due to lack of transportation and became a tax free entity for what ever rationale developed by Congressional decree.

if the PX/BX exchange enterprises went away, stateside only, NOBODY WOULD STARVE!

in fact their product lines are extremely overpriced because the local establishments in military communities complained many many years ago they couldn't compete with the exchanges so again congress decreed the exchanges can only sell at competitive prices based on surveys from establishments around the military facilities. only thing you save is no state taxes are collected!!

therefore, in light of Walmart etc., stateside the exchanges are an albatross and IMHO should be closed as they serve no useful purpose - with the exception a small percentage of the exchange's profits is given to the base's Moral, Welfare, and Recreation fund to support the golf courses and the like.

the degradation of this thread to 'you don't know **** cuz you didn't serve' and such is an insult to the concept: 'all gave some, some gave all!' get over yourselves...

now you know what winds my clock!

btw, you notice the op started this and like a bar brawl, isn't contributing?

ipse
 
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OC for ME

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I would find what you describe far more noble if your logic wasn't dependent on implicitly forcing me to accept that you "defend others" (at least, others who aren't your immediate brothers-in-arms in combat).

I would find it really, really hard to take issue with someone who said "I think it's noble for folks to make sacrifices for what they feel is a greater good".

But when you declare that you are – in no uncertain terms – noble, because you defend me, I hope you'll understand when I tell you exactly which dark hole you can shove your paternalistic crap back into.
Most of the fellas I worked with were never so noble as to be serving for the greater good. It was just a job for the most part while I served.

There's nothing noble about whining that folks with a different worldview don't respect you.
+1

I would like to think that folks with a different worldview are not holding those who serve responsible for the ills of the military-industrial complex due simply to they participating in it.

Anyway...no big deal one way or the other.
 

stealthyeliminator

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Interesting take on what I did not state.

I believe I stated, and you may correct me if I am wrong, that military service is a job, nothing more and nothing less. The service member's employer has chosen to include in the "benefits package" various benefits in exchange for the service provided to the federal government.

The Constitution places the burden on the federal government, and thus We The People, to maintain a army and navy. How the federal government lures citizens into service is certainly up for debate. The benefits package is what the feds use, where as conscription is the only alternative. And, taxes are justified, the current tax system is not, thanks to the 16A. Your definition of liberty, in my view, is inconsistent with the document that enumerates our rights. That protects, or should protect, our rights. I hold the Founders at their word and their wisdom on this specific subject. There is a mechanism to change the "benefits" structure that the feds use. How We The People decide to compensate our services members is, apparently, far too excessive to some.

Agree or disagree, I have no interest. I have stated my views on the military and those who choose to serve. Others hold a different view.

First of all, our Founders did not create liberty, nor were they ultimate authorities on liberty. They attempted to establish liberty in America, and IMO they did a pretty damn good job in the very beginning. I believe, however, that the Founders with the greatest grasp on liberty were unable to establish their principles as deeply as they had wished, and documents such as the one to which you are referring are actually a result of that. I am not a constitutionalist by any means. The constitution is not the crux of liberty in America. If the time ever came that the constitution as a tool for the preservation of liberty became ineffective, the constitution would not be any part of the battle cry of true patriots - only the principles of liberty would be. My view of liberty having inconsistencies with the Constitution of the United States of America does not concern me or lead me to believe that there may be an error in my view.

You did not state that military service entitles one to a status of nobility. However, that is the impression being given off (or at least received on this end) by the attitude being perpetuated by several of the members here, including you.

Regarding the benefits, though... IMO DrakeZ07's position was, basically, that military service-members should not receive these "government benefits." If you eliminate the elaboration, that is the base of his post, so far as I can see. You and other posters dissented to his position, indicating that you believe military service-members should receive "government benefits." All this seems ridiculously verbose, but, apparently that is necessary. I am not making up my own dots out of thin air to make the connections and draw the resulting picture, as you seem to be implying with your "Interesting take on what I did not say" comment.

No, government employment is not just "a job, nothing more, nothing less"

It is a job which is payrolled via exploitation, coercion and deceit. My job is not. The benefits that my employer provides me are not comparable to benefits which the government provides its employees.
 
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solus

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snip...
Regarding the benefits, though... IMO DrakeZ07's position was, basically, that military service-members should not receive these "government benefits." If you eliminate the elaboration, that is the base of his post, so far as I can see. You and other posters dissented to his position, indicating that you believe military service-members should receive "government benefits." All this seems ridiculously verbose, but, apparently that is necessary. I am not making up my own dots out of thin air to make the connections and draw the resulting picture, as you seem to be implying with your "Interesting take on what I did not say" comment.

No, government employment is not just "a job, nothing more, nothing less"

It is a job which is payrolled via exploitation, coercion and deceit. My job is not. The benefits that my employer provides me are not comparable to benefits which the government provides its employees.

you are using words incorrectly...US service members are not considered government employees! Government employees are classified civilians.

I am confused from the read of this thread as to what specific 'government benefits' are being bestowed on US service members that individuals in the private sector do not receive?

retirement @ half pay after 20 years? ya that is a biggie...$~2K/month taxable!

oh wait perhaps you are referring to the medical they receive at the base facilities - if there are medical personal to support your ailment. then you go downtown just like private sector. in retirement they must endure providers who no longer wish to indulge the headaches of tricare BS paperwork.

oh it is outstanding pay that is a government benefit, let's see an E5 > 6 years makes $2.7k/ month or $32K a year, taxable! sounds like a lot doesn't it? but most service members are working 12 hour shifts due to budget constraints or having to support areas where other personnel are overseas which works out at $~7.5/hour taxable income. wait forgive me, that doesn't count the times in the middle of the night you are called in to 'play war'.

ok, government civilian at GS 5 step 6 makes $32K /year taxable and let's see divide that by 2000 man hours in a normal year works out to $16/hour. oh unless in mission critical positions, civilians do not get called in the middle of the night nor do they work 12 hour shift...if they do they put in for overtime...not sure the US Service member can do that!

but you were referring to your own position as you feel your benefits are incompatible to those in government employee, as mentioned those are considered civilians not service members per se.

as for comparing your employment and its benefits to US service members, i will ask if you are working for $7.50/hour, if your medical care is dependent on availability of medical personnel, if your job has you working 12 hour shifts without commensurate overtime, if you are subjected to deployment to the reaches of the world - sometimes on a moments notice, if you end up in conflict zones, then i again ask what specific benefits do you believe are incompatible with your current employment against those of US service members.

ipse
 

stealthyeliminator

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They are payrolled via taxation, that is the relevant characterization. Whether or not they're "considered" so called "government employees" is not particularly relevant.

My paycheck, and whatever 'benefits' I receive, are not sourced from taxation.
 
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solus

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here nc
They are payrolled via taxation, that is the relevant characterization. Whether or not they're "considered" so called "government employees" is not particularly relevant.

My paycheck, and whatever 'benefits' I receive, are not sourced from taxation.

i'm sorry did i miss your response to my query about what equivalent benefits you are not receiving that are provided to US service members?

pooh paw'g with an answer 'not particularly relevant' doesn't count.

unfortunately i am not sure what your career is, nor do i care, but i am sure you would be surprised to learn, if you looked, the community or state waived taxation for your big business to settle in that particular area...

most businesses do not pay their share of taxes and are given a 'break' other small business owners lack.

ipse
 
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