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Thread: What a load of BS

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    What a load of BS

    A gun Owner Is A Citizen
    Anyone Else is a Subject

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    In my opinion once you've served your time and have been released from prison and you are no longer on probation or parole, you should have all of your rights restored.

    Montana has a Constitutional amendment that states once a convicted felon has successfully served his/her sentence, they are deemed to have fully repaid their debt to society and are restored to full rights and citizenship, including the right to keep and bear arms. This only applies to violations of state law and not to Federal law.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    The Supreme Court has ruled that the police have no obligation to protect an individual, only to protect society in general. If that is so, then on whom is the obligation to protect oneself?

    Pardoned felons, and felons who have served their time still have a right to life and the right to preserve that life when attacked.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Depends in what you go to jail for. Violent crime? Definitely should lose your ability to carry or own. Tax evasion? Not so much. Heck even just drug possession, complete rehab and get your guns back.

    Someone who has enough propensity for violence that they have harmed someone severely shouldnt get guns. Its easy.... you want to keep your guns? Don't hurt people.

    Any who thinks your "rehabbed" by doing a bid.... talk to a CO. Some guys change in a minimum security place, but they aren't there for murder. You get a guy doing a bid for a shooting or stabbing hes going to a place where hell HAVE to be violent to survive his incarceration.

    If a rabid dog kills a kid, do you just put him in a kennel for a couple of years? Then when you take him out of said cage do you put him back with people?

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    That's more a damning indictment of our prison system than anything else, Primus.

    In the States, we want prisoners to know they're being punished, we want them to feel the weight of those 20 foot tall concrete walls and triple barbed wire. It's so stressful that the average corrections officer dies before he's 60.

    Other countries... have a differing approach.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 03-11-2014 at 11:24 PM.

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    You would hope that the pardon board, or whatever entity is responsible, has a thorough enough vetting system so that only those appropriate for pardon are seriously considered for one- and as mentioned above, if the crime involved violence it is most likely not appropriate.

    That being said, a pardon is a pardon and once complete, the record should be wiped clean. Once that is done, the person should have not barriers moving forward.


    Quote Originally Posted by Augustin View Post
    In my opinion once you've served your time and have been released from prison and you are no longer on probation or parole, you should have all of your rights restored.

    Montana has a Constitutional amendment that states once a convicted felon has successfully served his/her sentence, they are deemed to have fully repaid their debt to society and are restored to full rights and citizenship, including the right to keep and bear arms. This only applies to violations of state law and not to Federal law.
    Even if the crime involved violence toward others? Even if someone was killed? There are no qualifying conditions- it applies in general?

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    That's more a damning indictment of our prison system than anything else, Primus.

    In the States, we want prisoners to know they're being punished, we want them to feel the weight of those 20 foot tall concrete walls and triple barbed wire. It's so stressful that the average corrections officer dies before he's 60.

    Other countries... have a differing approach.
    To say its a "damning indictment" doesn't refute anything. And its not just the prison system its the whole system IMHO. Even if you get the cop to actually put time into a case and they grab a really bad guy, then you need to pray it sticks in court no matter how good the case is or how bad the guy is. Then once he's sentences his reduced sentence he ends up with other animals. Just makes more connections for when he gets out to be a reoffender. So the cycle starts all over again. Same coo sees same criminal back on the street doing the same stuff. Except second time around cop starts to say "what the hell is the point they are letting them right back out".

    Above is just my opinion and I know its cynical. If anyone has a refutation.... send it. I suggest you talk to some other guys in the cj system and see how different their views are especially in inner cities.

    I went to college. Heard all that feel good stuff about rehabilitation as opposed to retribution. There a very little of either. Its more of a training camp.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    To say its a "damning indictment" doesn't refute anything. And its not just the prison system its the whole system IMHO. Even if you get the cop to actually put time into a case and they grab a really bad guy, then you need to pray it sticks in court no matter how good the case is or how bad the guy is. Then once he's sentences his reduced sentence he ends up with other animals. Just makes more connections for when he gets out to be a reoffender. So the cycle starts all over again. Same coo sees same criminal back on the street doing the same stuff. Except second time around cop starts to say "what the hell is the point they are letting them right back out".

    Above is just my opinion and I know its cynical. If anyone has a refutation.... send it. I suggest you talk to some other guys in the cj system and see how different their views are especially in inner cities.

    I went to college. Heard all that feel good stuff about rehabilitation as opposed to retribution. There a very little of either. Its more of a training camp.

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    so you are saying due diligence is not done by LE investigating crimes & prosecutor(s) running the cases can't get their acts together to present a viable case to the judicial system?

    additionally, your belief is bad guys only get put away cuz these two entities are 'praying' the courts, overseers of savants investigating and prosecuting, don't make too many waves reviewing the apparent half arse job the savants did??

    here is but one gentleman who's life was xxxx'd due to the 'due diligence' the savants did (and they apparently hid evidence from the judicial system) : http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ful-conviction

    oh wait, i forgot...the savants have total immunity from any errors they make during the accomplishment of their duties!!

    now to the other aspect of your post:

    budget cuts since Johnson's Great Society concepts have had a devastating affect rehabilitation efforts but remember, no matter what rehabilitation gains are made while an individual is incarcerated, when released they return to the same situational environment (jobless, poverty, substance availability, familial difficulties, bad guy friends, and now the stigma of being a 'felon') they were in when the LE's and prosecutor's 'PRAYERS" were answered by the judicial system and they were sent to prison!

    most i have known, again violate just to return to an environment (prison) they are comfortable and familiar with and can function in.

    bottom line, instead of praying the case gets through the judicial system, how bout 'PRAYING" we provide viable rehab funding as well as follow-up and follow through for those released to adjust to a new environment - and 'half way houses' do not cut it!

    ipse

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 03-12-2014 at 01:00 PM.
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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    To say its a "damning indictment" doesn't refute anything. And its not just the prison system its the whole system IMHO. Even if you get the cop to actually put time into a case and they grab a really bad guy, then you need to pray it sticks in court no matter how good the case is or how bad the guy is. Then once he's sentences his reduced sentence he ends up with other animals. Just makes more connections for when he gets out to be a reoffender. So the cycle starts all over again. Same coo sees same criminal back on the street doing the same stuff. Except second time around cop starts to say "what the hell is the point they are letting them right back out".

    Above is just my opinion and I know its cynical. If anyone has a refutation.... send it. I suggest you talk to some other guys in the cj system and see how different their views are especially in inner cities.

    I went to college. Heard all that feel good stuff about rehabilitation as opposed to retribution. There a very little of either. Its more of a training camp.
    Gee, and I kinda thought that was what I said when I said it was a damning indictment of our current system. I don't really need to refute anything as what you just said only supports my position.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    That's more a damning indictment of our prison system than anything else, Primus.

    In the States, we want prisoners to know they're being punished, we want them to feel the weight of those 20 foot tall concrete walls and triple barbed wire. It's so stressful that the average corrections officer dies before he's 60.

    Other countries... have a differing approach.
    One of the officials in the Norwegian article is quoted as saying: "If we treat people like animals when they are in prison they are likely to behave like animals." This is absolutely true. It's possible some people are incapable of behaving as human beings, and that applies to people on both sides of the CJ system. However, most people live up to the expectations they're held to. It's not hard to believe that when a person is treated like a POS, they behave like a POS.

    That's why police treating all citizens as criminals is, to me, one of the most troubling aspects of our current society.
    When rights are outlawed only outlaws will have rights.

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  11. #11
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    so you are saying due diligence is not done by LE investigating crimes & prosecutor(s) running the cases can't get their acts together to present a viable case to the judicial system?

    additionally, your belief is bad guys only get put away cuz these two entities are 'praying' the courts, overseers of savants investigating and prosecuting, don't make too many waves reviewing the apparent half arse job the savants did??

    here is but one gentleman who's life was xxxx'd due to the 'due diligence' the savants did (and they apparently hid evidence from the judicial system) : http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ful-conviction

    oh wait, i forgot...the savants have total immunity from any errors they make during the accomplishment of their duties!!

    now to the other aspect of your post:

    budget cuts since Johnson's Great Society concepts have had a devastating affect rehabilitation efforts but remember, no matter what rehabilitation gains are made while an individual is incarcerated, when released they return to the same situational environment (jobless, poverty, substance availability, familial difficulties, bad guy friends, and now the stigma of being a 'felon') they were in when the LE's and prosecutor's 'PRAYERS" were answered by the judicial system and they were sent to prison!

    most i have known, again violate just to return to an environment (prison) they are comfortable and familiar with and can function in.

    bottom line, instead of praying the case gets through the judicial system, how bout 'PRAYING" we provide viable rehab funding as well as follow-up and follow through for those released to adjust to a new environment - and 'half way houses' do not cut it!

    ipse

    ipse
    Not really sure how you can rehab someone from shooting another drug dealer.

    Pray tell how you rehab a guy who beats his girl to a inch of her life?

    How do you rehab an inside job where some gang members shoot another member because they were afraid he was going to snitch? Do you ask the shooter to please stop shooting people?

    I get it I agree that people are a product or their surroundings. I have seen and continue to see some pretty crappy living conditions that these prime teens grow up in and whoops they get caught carrying a gun next year. (Not for self protection but merely as a make so someone else can use it to murder other guys).

    I don't know and or pretend to know the solution, I'm just commenting that anyone who thinks that if you go to prison it actually FIXES you... they need to talk to a CO. Or just look at recidivism rates.

    And finally, honestly spend some time in a court house and see what goes on. You can have a perfect case and it will get tossed on a whim by either judge or jury.

    Very brief example.... had an OUI accident. Female crashed into another vehicle pulling into gas station. She blew a .28 . She failed every sobriety test, after she had the accident. She didn't even know she was in an accident she was so drunk. All of that was stated to the jury by myself and other officers. We even for witnesses and the accident victim to show up and all corroborated...... and...... not guilty baby. Her 3rd OUI (which isn't even admissible evidence). No rehab, no probation, no nothing. Jury found her not guilty. So you have a lady who causes an accident (no injuries luckily) , we have physical, video, testimonial evidence, and not guilty.

    So what's the point of that brief story? Sometimes regardless of how tight the case you will lose it. And in a case like this the female walked away to go get another chance to drink and drive and maybe kill someone next time. Maybe my family or someone else's. It happens. That's all I'm saying.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...d.php?t=120816

    See this thread for what I was talking about prison not rehabbing.

    92% homicide suspects had prior arrests. So at some point they were grabbed up by a coppah for some reason and arrested and charged. They may or may not have done time but they all entered the "system". Then then murdered someone, maybe again.

    So for those that say restore all rights back when released... that'd be legally giving these 92% the means to murder more people.

    I get it and I agree "they are getting the guns anyways!!!". But I'd rather them have to hide in an alley like the rats they are then walk into the same gun shop I do, to buy a gun and ammo to go kill a rival. I'd rather not have a discussion with them at the counter about the best rounds to use or beat calibers to get through ballistic vests. Or what magazines work best etc. Let them figure it out on YouTube and hopefully they shoot themselves before they harm anyone else.

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    Last edited by Primus; 03-12-2014 at 03:03 PM.
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    Punish for the deed not the perception of a deed. It is wrong wrong wrong and immoral to take away the right to life to children and families of people who have paid their debt. Unless you want to provide private protection for felons!

    It is stupid, ignorant, and very dumb to turn people loose from prison that you cannot trust to live on the streets. Only a idiot thinks it is better to limit the right to self defense for groups. That works out to include more groups as government idiots get away with it.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 03-12-2014 at 03:35 PM.
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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Punish for the deed not the perception of a deed. It is wrong wrong wrong and immoral to take away the right to life to children and families of people who have paid their debt. Unless you want to provide private protection for felons!

    It is stupid, ignorant, and very dumb to turn people loose from prison that you cannot trust to live on the streets. Only a idiot thinks it is better to limit the right to self defense for groups. That works out to include more groups as government idiots get away with it.
    "It is stupid, ignorant, and very dumb to turn people loose from prison that you cannot trust to live on the streets"

    So how do you keep the guys you don't "trust" in prison? If he has a 5 year bid and does his 5 years he's out. He can say "I'm going to go kill some more" and no one can do anything about it. He did his "time". So hes free to do more crime....

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Prisoners in Norway can apply for a transfer to Bastoy when they have up to five years left of their sentence to serve. Every type of offender, including men convicted of murder or rape, may be accepted, so long as they fit the criteria, the main one being a determination to live a crime-free life on release.
    ...
    The recidivism rate for those released from Bastoy speaks for itself. At just 16%, it is the lowest in Europe.
    I dunno, I guess maybe their rapists, robbers, drug dealers and murderers are somehow different than our rapists, robbers, drug dealers and murderers?

    How do you rehabilitate someone who has beaten his girlfriend?
    There seem to be two competing theories
    1) Keep him in a cage, dehumanize him at every available opportunity and beat down his spirit, give him constant examples of how others should be treated.
    or
    2) Let him know that he can change, if he wants to, treat him the way that you'd want to treat others and give him an example to learn from.

    Personally, I'd go with whatever system produced a 16% recidivism rate as opposed to a 60% rate, but I'm just silly that way.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    I dunno, I guess maybe their rapists, robbers, drug dealers and murderers are somehow different than our rapists, robbers, drug dealers and murderers?

    How do you rehabilitate someone who has beaten his girlfriend?
    There seem to be two competing theories
    1) Keep him in a cage, dehumanize him at every available opportunity and beat down his spirit, give him constant examples of how others should be treated.
    or
    2) Let him know that he can change, if he wants to, treat him the way that you'd want to treat others and give him an example to learn from.

    Personally, I'd go with whatever system produced a 16% recidivism rate as opposed to a 60% rate, but I'm just silly that way.
    I agree 16% sounds great.

    This is apples to oranges. Norway isn't the US. None of the crime rates match. None of the socio economic dynamics match.

    Here's the jacked up part of criminal Justice conversations. There are some many factors its damn near impossible to keep track. Every little factor matters from population density to family make ups to poverty level to education systems to..... every thing.

    There is no clear cut solution. I'm not advocating for a second that to just slam someone in a cell and they will be fixed. That's my point. Out current system doesn't work. But its a mere symptom of a larger itis. Grab bad guy put in jail does not equal fixed. Remotely.

    Again... I have no idea how to fix it. I don't think anyone does. That's awesome Norway found a way to do it in their country or threat very specific facility. If they did that to Detroit I might be impresses. Maybe.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    "It is stupid, ignorant, and very dumb to turn people loose from prison that you cannot trust to live on the streets"

    So how do you keep the guys you don't "trust" in prison? If he has a 5 year bid and does his 5 years he's out. He can say "I'm going to go kill some more" and no one can do anything about it. He did his "time". So hes free to do more crime....

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    Very Very simple, longer prison sentences for violent crime, no parole if they cannot be trusted. Our current system is a horrible joke, that is not even close to funny. How much more stupid can it get to pass laws that assumes that criminals are law abiding? It is just ignorant!
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 03-12-2014 at 04:44 PM.
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Not really sure how you can rehab someone from shooting another drug dealer.
    it is self defence the same as if a citizen were to do it!

    Pray tell how you rehab a guy who beats his girl to a inch of her life?
    DV is a learned trait therefore it can be unlearned. happens all the time!!

    How do you rehab an inside job where some gang members shoot another member because they were afraid he was going to snitch? Do you ask the shooter to please stop shooting people? Really!!

    I get it I agree that people are a product or their surroundings. I have seen and continue to see some pretty crappy living conditions that these prime teens grow up in and whoops they get caught carrying a gun next year. (Not for self protection but merely as a make so someone else can use it to murder other guys).

    I don't know and or pretend to know the solution, I'm just commenting that anyone who thinks that if you go to prison it actually FIXES you... they need to talk to a CO. Or just look at recidivism rates. can you provide stats or are you taking the information from the good olde boy CO...

    And finally, honestly spend some time in a court house and see what goes on. You can have a perfect case and it will get tossed on a whim by either judge or jury. which means some LE or prosecutor savant didn't do there job! or their prayer didn't work!!

    Very brief example.... had an OUI accident. Female crashed into another vehicle pulling into gas station. She blew a .28 . She failed every sobriety test, after she had the accident. She didn't even know she was in an accident she was so drunk. All of that was stated to the jury by myself and other officers. We even for witnesses and the accident victim to show up and all corroborated...... and...... not guilty baby. Her 3rd OUI (which isn't even admissible evidence). No rehab, no probation, no nothing. Jury found her not guilty. So you have a lady who causes an accident (no injuries luckily) , we have physical, video, testimonial evidence, and not guilty.

    again, apparently someone thought it was a slam dunk and the savant didn't do their job properly!! one of the reasons we have juries to protect the citizens from over zealous savants but why blame the judicial system for the root cause is apparent!

    So what's the point of that brief story? Sometimes regardless of how tight the case you will lose it. oh, it sounds like the case was tight - tight enough the jury saw through the savant's failure to do their job! And in a case like this the female walked away to go get another chance to drink and drive and maybe kill someone next time. Maybe my family or someone else's. It happens. That's all I'm saying.

    Deaths in crashes involving drunk drivers dropped 2.5 percent in 2011, taking 9,878 lives compared to 10,136 in 2010. NIHS cite

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    Last edited by solus; 03-12-2014 at 05:44 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AH.74 View Post
    Even if the crime involved violence toward others? Even if someone was killed? There are no qualifying conditions- it applies in general?
    Yes.

    The Montana Constitution allows for the restoration of rights upon release from state custody without exception.

    The only exception is that a law was passed - Montana Code Annotated 45-8-314 - that circumvents the provision in the Constitution. This law specifies that a person convicted of a crime where a firearm is used is considered to be under state supervision for life, even after he/she is released from prison and parole.

    However this law also provides a process whereby a person subject to the law can petition the District Court for permission to posess one or more firearms.

    Since Montana is generally a very gun friendly state the chances of a successful petition are quite high (see: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...Week-CELEBRATE )

    And again, the Montana Constituion provision is not recognized under Federal law, so if you were convicted in another state it doesn't apply to you.

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    Interesting stuff, Augustin. Thanks for the info. I don't think I agree with everyone being given a clean slate more or less automatically when they complete a sentence, but I do commend Montana on giving these issues some serious and constructive thought. In that respect I believe they are light years ahead of other states.

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