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Thread: This is why you should CC and not OC

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    This is why you should CC and not OC

    this is why you should CC and not OC. tactical advantage. not a lot of people get that concept.


    --Moderator Note--

    This thread created by moving posts from another thread, where they were deemed to be off topic.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 03-12-2014 at 11:50 PM.

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    Regular Member DaveT319's Avatar
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    What's the advantage?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    this is why you should CC and not OC. tactical advantage. not a lot of people get that concept.
    Really? You came all the way to an OC site to say that?

    If you were being sarcastic, it would behoove you to so indicate.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Really? You came all the way to an OC site to say that?

    If you were being sarcastic, it would behoove you to so indicate.
    where would i come from? i have been here for only a little while but not really active. after catching up on some posts i have figured out why i dont come back much. no im not being sarcastic. explain to me how its not an advantage? have you heard of the term "counter ambush?" or blending in? to be on topic the issue is with they guys wife having an issue with him carrying. if its concealed she wont see it. am i correct or does his wife search him before leaving the house?

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    Regular Member HPmatt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    to be on topic the issue is with they guys wife having an issue with him carrying. if its concealed she wont see it. am i correct or does his wife search him before leaving the house?
    All men carry loaded guns.....some of them carry pistols too. Would want my wife to search for it every morning before work...
    “Men live without other security than what their own strength and their own invention shall furnish them"
    -Thomas Hobbes 1651

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    Regular Member DaveT319's Avatar
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    True, she won't see it, but just knowing I have it will annoy her.

    As for counter-ambush... Isn't the possible deterrent factor of OC better than being accosted and hoping you can get your weapon unconcealed before they can harm you? And isn't it faster to draw from an exposed holster than to first have to get your clothing out of the way?

    I still don't see a clear advantage... (disclaimer: I plan to CC once I get my permit, but not because it's tactically adventageous)

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Grapeshot

    Really? You came all the way to an OC site to say that?

    If you were being sarcastic, it would behoove you to so indicate.
    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    where would i come from? i have been here for only a little while but not really active. after catching up on some posts i have figured out why i dont come back much. no im not being sarcastic. explain to me how its not an advantage? have you heard of the term "counter ambush?" or blending in? --snipped--
    Well having been here a reasonable amount of time and I presume reading + comprehending, then you must understand that there is no tactical advantage to CC. Plain and simple, a person CCing looks just like a disarmed and ready victim. There is not one iota of difference. On that I will give no quarter.

    The concept of OC as an effective deterrent to being attacked is well established here - that horse has been thoroughly beaten and see no reason to do so again.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveT319 View Post
    True, she won't see it, but just knowing I have it will annoy her.

    As for counter-ambush... Isn't the possible deterrent factor of OC better than being accosted and hoping you can get your weapon unconcealed before they can harm you? And isn't it faster to draw from an exposed holster than to first have to get your clothing out of the way?

    I still don't see a clear advantage... (disclaimer: I plan to CC once I get my permit, but not because it's tactically adventageous)
    yeah but wouldn't the last thing you want to do is annoy your wife? i can somewhat agree it COULD be a deterrent. you could also argue cops have died from their own guns. is there eyes in the back of your head? believe me, no one here is a ninja you could get cracked in the back of the head standing in line at wal mart during rush hour.

    faster to draw? nope. i can draw just as fast or faster as anyone who has a OC holster. clearing something like a t-shirt and drawing is pretty much one movement so it doesn't add time. in winter i wear a pull over and a t-shirt so nothing changes from summer to winter and its consistent. would a heavy winter coat add an obstacle? yes. you can work around it though.

    no advantage? lets say I'm at a bank. its pay day and someone decides to rob it. we will say I'm OCin. robbers bust in and the first person they see is me with my OC rig. think im not going to be a target? if i were to think like a bad guy and I'm dead set on robbing the bank like the guys in the LA shoot out (back in 1993 i think) I'm probably going to get smoke checked. now lets say I'm CCing. i LOOK like a sheep like everyone else. little do they know I'm carrying a loaded gun with 30 plus rounds. i look just like everyone else. that makes me NOT be a target right away. i would have more time to think about my "counter ambush" if i choose to pull my gun. i could pull my gun when they arnt looking (they arnt ninjas either) and i COULD have my gun presented aimed in waiting in a "counter ambush" position. now they have to react. now they are caught off guard.

    thats just and example. no advantage? you decide.

    i forgot to add. if you are a smart OCer you have some sort of retention on your holster. depending what it is wouldn't that add time as well? would it add anymore time than clearing a t-shirt? in my own findings i see no difference.
    Last edited by g21sfpistol; 03-12-2014 at 08:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Well having been here a reasonable amount of time and I presume reading + comprehending, then you must understand that there is no tactical advantage to CC. Plain and simple, a person CCing looks just like a disarmed and ready victim. There is not one iota of difference. On that I will give no quarter.

    The concept of OC as an effective deterrent to being attacked is well established here - that horse has been thoroughly beaten and see no reason to do so again.

    haha do you want to blend in or be a target? why did the corps issue me woodland and desert cammo then? sound like by your logic we should have been issued red gear. you can still blend in but be alert and ready. of course it has been established here because this is a OC site.

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    Regular Member Gallowmere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    haha do you want to blend in or be a target? why did the corps issue me woodland and desert cammo then? sound like by your logic we should have been issued red gear. you can still blend in but be alert and ready. of course it has been established here because this is a OC site.
    You actually just proved Grapeshot's point, and you don't even realize it. The reason no one wears brightly colored combat uniforms anymore, is because it made them easily recognizable targets, and made it easier to literally target them, especially at a distance.

    Guess who are easily recognizable targets for criminals in day to day life. People who do not appear to be armed. People who appear to be physically weak. People who look like they are not paying attention to their surroundings. I have never once spoken to a person with a criminal past who would consider taking on a visibly armed person (unless they were clearly blowhards who have an "I could kill the world if I wanted" attitude). It's not worth the risk when there are much softer targets around.
    Last edited by Gallowmere; 03-12-2014 at 08:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallowmere View Post
    You actually just proved Grapeshot's point, and you don't even realize it. The reason no one wears brightly colored combat uniforms anymore, is because it made them easily recognizable targets, and made it easier to literally target them, especially at a distance.

    Guess who are easily recognizable targets for criminals in day to day life. People who do not appear to be armed. People who appear to be physically weak. People who look like they are not paying attention to their surroundings. I have never once spoken to a person with a criminal past who would consider taking on a visibly armed person (unless they were clearly blowhards who have an "I could kill the world if I wanted" attitude). It's not worth the risk when there are much softer targets around.
    negative sir. i just blend in and appearing to be something I'm not. who's crapping their pants when all of a sudden the guy who thinks he has you pegged, is now looking down the barrel of your gun? sure i would rather not be a target. but can you guarantee me the OC will deter criminals? is there stats on that? it can't be proven.

    my point with the cammo is you are wearing red when you OC. you are in cammo when you CC. like i said, you can blend it but still be alert and ready. having a gun on your hip OCin is like a chick sitting at a bar drinking capt. and coke with a tattoo on her lower back. bullseye!
    Last edited by g21sfpistol; 03-12-2014 at 09:08 PM.

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    Regular Member Gallowmere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    negative sir. i just blend in and appearing to be something I'm not. who's crapping their pants when all of a sudden the guy who thinks he has you pegged, is now looking down the barrel of your gun? sure i would rather not be a target. but can you guarantee me the OC will deter criminals? is there stats on that? it can't be proven.

    my point with the cammo is you are wearing red when you OC. you are in cammo when you CC. like i said, you can blend it but still be alert and ready. having a gun on your hip OCin is like a chick sitting at a bar drinking capt. and coke with a tattoo on her lower back. bullseye!
    I find it interesting that you ask for something that you say can't be proven...then follow it up with something that can't be proven.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    yeah but wouldn't the last thing you want to do is annoy your wife? i can somewhat agree it COULD be a deterrent. you could also argue cops have died from their own guns. is there eyes in the back of your head? believe me, no one here is a ninja you could get cracked in the back of the head standing in line at wal mart during rush hour.

    faster to draw? nope. i can draw just as fast or faster as anyone who has a OC holster. clearing something like a t-shirt and drawing is pretty much one movement so it doesn't add time. in winter i wear a pull over and a t-shirt so nothing changes from summer to winter and its consistent. would a heavy winter coat add an obstacle? yes. you can work around it though.

    no advantage? lets say I'm at a bank. its pay day and someone decides to rob it. we will say I'm OCin. robbers bust in and the first person they see is me with my OC rig. think im not going to be a target? if i were to think like a bad guy and I'm dead set on robbing the bank like the guys in the LA shoot out (back in 1993 i think) I'm probably going to get smoke checked. now lets say I'm CCing. i LOOK like a sheep like everyone else. little do they know I'm carrying a loaded gun with 30 plus rounds. i look just like everyone else. that makes me NOT be a target right away. i would have more time to think about my "counter ambush" if i choose to pull my gun. i could pull my gun when they arnt looking (they arnt ninjas either) and i COULD have my gun presented aimed in waiting in a "counter ambush" position. now they have to react. now they are caught off guard.

    thats just and example. no advantage? you decide.

    i forgot to add. if you are a smart OCer you have some sort of retention on your holster. depending what it is wouldn't that add time as well? would it add anymore time than clearing a t-shirt? in my own findings i see no difference.
    Just as fast from CC? That's not even funny.

    Being the first taken out is another of the great OC urban myths. You may choose to surprise the BG who enters with tunnel vision and one thing on his mind = get the money and get out with his life intact. Your scenerio, if and when it ever happens, will result in an extremely low ratio - somewhat like .00001%. Frankly, I prefer my odds to your scare tactics.
    http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/tw...c05fd49c8.html
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    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    negative sir. i just blend in and appearing to be something I'm not. who's crapping their pants when all of a sudden the guy who thinks he has you pegged, is now looking down the barrel of your gun? sure i would rather not be a target. but can you guarantee me the OC will deter criminals? is there stats on that? it can't be proven.

    my point with the cammo is you are wearing red when you OC. you are in cammo when you CC. like i said, you can blend it but still be alert and ready. having a gun on your hip OCin is like a chick sitting at a bar drinking capt. and coke with a tattoo on her lower back. bullseye!
    OC has been proven to the satisfaction of many as being an effective deterent - read the writing on the wall, sir.

    You belabor the point and take on the trappings of a provocateur. Your choice of how you carry is just that - your choice - but you can't seem to leave it there. Suggest you stop while you are ahead.

    This is first and foremost a site dedicated to normalizing OC as we go about our everyday lives. Many here have extensive knowledge and experience - don't insult us.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    negative sir. i just blend in and appearing to be something I'm not. who's crapping their pants when all of a sudden the guy who thinks he has you pegged, is now looking down the barrel of your gun? sure i would rather not be a target. but can you guarantee me the OC will deter criminals? is there stats on that? it can't be proven.

    my point with the cammo is you are wearing red when you OC. you are in cammo when you CC. like i said, you can blend it but still be alert and ready. having a gun on your hip OCin is like a chick sitting at a bar drinking capt. and coke with a tattoo on her lower back. bullseye!
    Well, that certainly explains all the news reports about cops in uniform being mugged all over the country, they're just targets waiting to be hit. No deterrence value at all.

    I do suppose though, that there is great comfort in imagining that during a bank robbery where everyone will immediately be commanded to go face down on the floor that a move to lift a cover garment won't be noticed and that someone will be able to draw from cover faster than someone with an already drawn and readied weapon will be able to react. We all tell ourselves things to comfort us in time of great stress.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Someone drinks the CC only coolaid and buys into the lies and myths.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
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    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Someone drinks the CC only coolaid and buys into the lies and myths.
    That was Kool-Aid? It smelled like a gas station men's room floor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    negative sir. i just blend in and appearing to be something I'm not. who's crapping their pants when all of a sudden the guy who thinks he has you pegged, is now looking down the barrel of your gun? sure i would rather not be a target. but can you guarantee me the OC will deter criminals? is there stats on that? it can't be proven.

    my point with the cammo is you are wearing red when you OC. you are in cammo when you CC. like i said, you can blend it but still be alert and ready. having a gun on your hip OCin is like a chick sitting at a bar drinking capt. and coke with a tattoo on her lower back. bullseye!
    Well let take a look at the bold. So YOU pull your gun on somebody you think has you pegged without just cause? Because unless you are justified to use deadly force you cannot legally point the barrel of your gun at someone. And if you have just cause the bad guy ALREADY HAS THE DROP ON YOU.

    You reach for your gun because you feel froggy with a LAC that is OCing you probably will become a statistic. This is the reason the Brady bunch site lists so many instances of abuse by concealed carriers but I have not seen one by a open carrier. It is that superman complex that some of the CC crowd has that puts a bad light on carry.
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    I do find the "ZOMG You'll be the first one shot!" line that gets bandied about, and those that use it in earnest, entertaining. Especially when called to cite, as is customary on this forum.

    What can I say? It's a guilty pleasure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Well, that certainly explains all the news reports about cops in uniform being mugged all over the country, they're just targets waiting to be hit. No deterrence value at all.

    I do suppose though, that there is great comfort in imagining that during a bank robbery where everyone will immediately be commanded to go face down on the floor that a move to lift a cover garment won't be noticed and that someone will be able to draw from cover faster than someone with an already drawn and readied weapon will be able to react. We all tell ourselves things to comfort us in time of great stress.
    a few years ago a local cop was cracked in the back of the head by someone trying to take his gun. and there was 2 cops present. so explain that. no where did i say they were being mugged all around the country. i simply stated it does happen.

    you are saying my speculating does nothing but bring me comfort while you are speculating in the same sentence. unless they have someone posted on every individual in the bank they end up on the reaction end. they can watch you in a group but action is faster than reaction.split seconds can mean life and death and when i have the plan in my head to draw he does not know what I'm thinking. IF you have taken any credible training in self defense you would have been told action IS faster then reaction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    OC has been proven to the satisfaction of many as being an effective deterent - read the writing on the wall, sir.

    You belabor the point and take on the trappings of a provocateur. Your choice of how you carry is just that - your choice - but you can't seem to leave it there. Suggest you stop while you are ahead.

    This is first and foremost a site dedicated to normalizing OC as we go about our everyday lives. Many here have extensive knowledge and experience - don't insult us.
    it has been proven to the satisfaction of many? prove it then? has a criminal came up and told you that? I'm being told I'm living in lala land because I'm drinking some cool aid. sounds to me you are drinking some OC cool aid all because a few other agree with you. why stop? because I'm bringing some logic into a conversation and you don't like it?

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    Regular Member DaveT319's Avatar
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    Cops sometimes get attacked because they are in a position of authority, not because they have a visible weapon.

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    Regular Member Gallowmere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    a few years ago a local cop was cracked in the back of the head by someone trying to take his gun. and there was 2 cops present. so explain that. no where did i say they were being mugged all around the country. i simply stated it does happen.

    you are saying my speculating does nothing but bring me comfort while you are speculating in the same sentence. unless they have someone posted on every individual in the bank they end up on the reaction end. they can watch you in a group but action is faster than reaction.split seconds can mean life and death and when i have the plan in my head to draw he does not know what I'm thinking. IF you have taken any credible training in self defense you would have been told action IS faster then reaction.
    You are correct on the last part. Here's the problem though: in such a scenario as what happened to that officer, if someone comes at you from behind and gets the drop on you, you're screwed no matter how you are carrying. This is especially true if the person actually wants your life, and not just your wallet. The problem is that you make the statement that an OCer is more likely to be such a target...and you provide no evidence for it, other than a single anecdote that likely had nothing to do with the weapon at all. If someone's batshit enough to jump a cop with two other cops present, it wasn't because the cop had the gun visible. It's because the guy had a deathwish.
    Last edited by Gallowmere; 03-12-2014 at 10:01 PM.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Action is indeed faster than reaction.
    Someone pulls a firearm and begins robbing a bank, guess who's acted first?
    Someone pulls their concealed firearm in response to that action, guess who's doing the reacting?
    or
    Someone could draw from an openly carried holster, guess who's draw times are going to be faster, concealed or open?

    Petty criminals intent of robbing a bank for their next score aren't known for being very observant, there are too many cases of such guys robbing restaurants filled with uniformed cops, walking past police cars to attempt robberies, or just brushing past uniformed cops in bank lines to present robbery notes for me to believe that most criminals are master minds of any sort. They're goldbricks, not Goldfingers.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 03-12-2014 at 10:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Just as fast from CC? That's not even funny.

    Being the first taken out is another of the great OC urban myths. You may choose to surprise the BG who enters with tunnel vision and one thing on his mind = get the money and get out with his life intact. Your scenerio, if and when it ever happens, will result in an extremely low ratio - somewhat like .00001%. Frankly, I prefer my odds to your scare tactics.
    http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/tw...c05fd49c8.html
    when and if it happens? a lot of you talk like you prepare for anything and everything, yet you are giving me the when and if excuse. it was nothing but an example. yet the same thing can happen in a mall or theater. so i guess the next time a situation like that happens, maybe you should be on here saying "don't worry gents, you have a .000001% chance of that happening to you" have that mentality. ill use some of my military training and prepare for the worst and hope for the best. I've been in situations where i have been shot at and have had tunnel vision. things don't always go as planned. go with your odds and ill go with my experience, or what you would call my "scare tactic"

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