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    closed threads

    im finding it funny that 2 threads have been closed all because i made conversation with only a few civilized people on here. im sure this will be the third one closed, because the truth stick hurts. apparently you cant have a civilized conversation on here with the opposing line of thinking. well you can with a few on here. otherwise you get warned or a thread gets closed down. this country was built on civilized conversation between parties. looks to me some people here have forgotten how to be civil.

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    Actually, this country was built upon an inordinate amount of bloodshed and sacrifice.
    How do you expect civility when one group of people or one individual insist that their belief is the only "truth"?
    How do you expect a two way street when one individual only want to go one way?
    How do you expect open-mindedness when one individual only mind their own?

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    im finding it funny that 2 threads have been closed all because i made conversation with only a few civilized people on here. im sure this will be the third one closed, because the truth stick hurts. apparently you cant have a civilized conversation on here with the opposing line of thinking. well you can with a few on here. otherwise you get warned or a thread gets closed down. this country was built on civilized conversation between parties. looks to me some people here have forgotten how to be civil.
    You finally found a mirror.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    CC does not advance the cause of restoring liberty, as in restoring our unfettered right to carry as we see fit. CC, permissive carry for the vast majority of citizens, is the only manner of carry for those citizens. Carry, where permitted, is good, all citizens who choose to carry should as they see fit. Advancing the opinion that CC is the superior manner of carry is not supported by any evidence. Advancing the opinion that CC is the superior manner of carry on a dedicated OC forum is folly.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    im finding it funny that 2 threads have been closed all because i made conversation with only a few civilized people on here. im sure this will be the third one closed, because the truth stick hurts. apparently you cant have a civilized conversation on here with the opposing line of thinking. well you can with a few on here. otherwise you get warned or a thread gets closed down. this country was built on civilized conversation between parties. looks to me some people here have forgotten how to be civil.
    The closed thread you allude to were not closed because of the topic, but as a result of the train wreck that they became, and rightly so. Sage advice, as well as explicit guidance was given, and subsequently ignored.....what outcome did you expect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernymac View Post
    Actually, this country was built upon an inordinate amount of bloodshed and sacrifice.
    How do you expect civility when one group of people or one individual insist that their belief is the only "truth"?
    How do you expect a two way street when one individual only want to go one way?
    How do you expect open-mindedness when one individual only mind their own?
    and debate.
    the only people who insist their belief is the only "truth" are a few on here. not once have i said "you should carry concealed period end of story" i have made statments for it and why i think it should be done. but thats nothing more than my statments, just like a OCer would state "i OC because..." i let people say what they want to say without insulting them or getting mad. i cant reply to their comments like they reply to mine? one claimed i wanted to harm people. even though i dont. yet they called me the troll and i got warned for breaking rule 16? isnt stating "i want to harm people" breaking rule 16 when i have made no such egregious claim? im pretty sure im on the good guy team. ive helped make elections happen in the middle east and offered aid. im pretty sure im somewhere on the "good guy side" ive been open minded. i even agreed with some people. but its hard to have a conversation when the clique of the fourm get offended and trolls to try to drive you away. one of them is a moderator so they block you or close down a thread because THEY dont agree with you, even though you werent even trying to talk with them to begin with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    The closed thread you allude to were not closed because of the topic, but as a result of the train wreck that they became, and rightly so. Sage advice, as well as explicit guidance was given, and subsequently ignored.....what outcome did you expect.
    i tried to stay on topic as much as i could. it was a few others who were getting the conversation off topic. i wouldnt doubt if getting off topic was the goal to close down the thread because no one wants to listen to logic in a conversation. well some dont anyway.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    i tried to stay on topic as much as i could. it was a few others who were getting the conversation off topic. i wouldnt doubt if getting off topic was the goal to close down the thread because no one wants to listen to logic in a conversation. well some dont anyway.
    Ok so let's start fresh. What's the point/topic of this thread?

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    CC does not advance the cause of restoring liberty, as in restoring our unfettered right to carry as we see fit. CC, permissive carry for the vast majority of citizens, is the only manner of carry for those citizens. Carry, where permitted, is good, all citizens who choose to carry should as they see fit. Advancing the opinion that CC is the superior manner of carry is not supported by any evidence. Advancing the opinion that CC is the superior manner of carry on a dedicated OC forum is folly.
    so do you carry for protection or debate? like i said before i never stated you should CC end of story. i also understand OC is the only way some people can carry due to state laws. i would agree and not argue against OC at that point since that is your ONLY way to legally carry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Ok so let's start fresh. What's the point/topic of this thread?

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    haha well basically the other two got shut down and i felt the need to address it because i was cut off then warned about breaking rule 16. i must have been the only one breaking rule 16. of course i wouldnt have responded to a few of them any way because they were just trolling.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    so do you carry for protection or debate? like i said before i never stated you should CC end of story. i also understand OC is the only way some people can carry due to state laws. i would agree and not argue against OC at that point since that is your ONLY way to legally carry.
    I OC for educational purposes.

    The rare occasions I am compelled by law to CC does not educate anyone.

    My children see "daddy" with a pistol on his hip and they pay no more attention to "it" than they typically do to me, until I start yelling at them to pay attention, to me.

    I desire my fellow citizens to pay me as little attention as do my kids.

    CC does not educate my fellow citizens.

    OC accomplishes the same thing that CC does, being armed for self defense and the defense of my family.

    CC does not educate my fellow citizens.

    You attempting to convince me, and many here it seems, to not educate my fellow citizens is no different than you spitting into a gale force wind.

    I direct your attention to what I refer to as the mission statement, of OCDO:

    OpenCarry.org was founded in 2004 by Virginia residents John Pierce and Mike Stollenwerk to be a pro-gun Internet community focused on the right to openly carry properly holstered handguns in daily American life.

    http://www.opencarry.org/?page_id=26
    Grapeshot attempted to explain to you that OCDO does not discourage any form of carry, or no carry at all. This is a OC centric forum. CC centric opinions, while welcome, are not give much credence regarding the use of a properly holstered firearm in a justified SD situation.

    Welcome to OCDO.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    The other one got locked while I was typing my reply to you.

    I'll try to be as eloquent now as I was then...

    You had mentioned that CC protects the masses because the bad guys don't know who is armed.

    I will agree that it can have an effect here. But protecting the masses by being known to be blending in with them is not my chief concern. And not all bad guys put that much thought into their opportunistic assaults.

    Open carry will deter an assault on me.

    Never mind that it's just a far more comfortable way to carry a full-size sidearm. And a full-size sidearm is a lot easier to shoot more effectively, often with more appropriate power, too, though this is among the least of its benefits.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    and debate.
    the only people who insist their belief is the only "truth" are a few on here. not once have i said "you should carry concealed period end of story" i have made statments for it and why i think it should be done. but thats nothing more than my statments, just like a OCer would state "i OC because..." i let people say what they want to say without insulting them or getting mad. i cant reply to their comments like they reply to mine?one claimed i wanted to harm people. even though i dont. yet they called me the troll and i got warned for breaking rule 16? isnt stating "i want to harm people" breaking rule 16 when i have made no such egregious claim? im pretty sure im on the good guy team. ive helped make elections happen in the middle east and offered aid. im pretty sure im somewhere on the "good guy side" ive been open minded. i even agreed with some people. but its hard to have a conversation when the clique of the fourm get offended and trolls to try to drive you away. one of them is a moderator so they block you or close down a thread because THEY dont agree with you, even though you werent even trying to talk with them to begin with.
    The reason for that is because your choice of words is representative of what some call "bloodlust", anxiously awaiting an opportunity to use the firearm on another human being:
    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol
    negative sir. i just blend in and appearing to be something I'm not. who's crapping their pants when all of a sudden the guy who thinks he has you pegged, is now looking down the barrel of your gun?
    Then you go on to insult us with a simile of OC in the same post:
    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol
    ...having a gun on your hip OCin is like a chick sitting at a bar drinking capt. and coke with a tattoo on her lower back. bullseye!
    Which has been debunked. The biggest flaw is your assumption that criminals would eliminate armed resistance first instead of wanting to avoid armed resistance.
    1) criminals are generally not soldiers. The mindset isn't "complete the mission at all costs", it is closer to "get in, get out. Don't get caught, don't get shot.". It behooves the criminals NOT to be caught in the act, since they may wish to get the chance savor the fruits of their ill intent.
    2) even mass murderers do not fit this description, since their goal is to murder as many people as possible, and the possibility of armed resistance reduces their potential gain; it is a simple cost-benefit analysis.
    3) the ones that have a death wish or seek vendetta do fit the scope of your original assumption in that they have no qualms about an extended firefight if they seek to go out "guns blazing", but again, they have a death wish or seek vendetta, so are more likely to be targeting their victims instead of the bank robbers used in your example.
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I OC for educational purposes.

    The rare occasions I am compelled by law to CC does not educate anyone.

    My children see "daddy" with a pistol on his hip and they pay no more attention to "it" than they typically do to me, until I start yelling at them to pay attention, to me.

    I desire my fellow citizens to pay me as little attention as do my kids.

    CC does not educate my fellow citizens.

    OC accomplishes the same thing that CC does, being armed for self defense and the defense of my family.

    CC does not educate my fellow citizens.

    You attempting to convince me, and many here it seems, to not educate my fellow citizens is no different than you spitting into a gale force wind.

    I direct your attention to what I refer to as the mission statement, of OCDO:

    Grapeshot attempted to explain to you that OCDO does not discourage any form of carry, or no carry at all. This is a OC centric forum. CC centric opinions, while welcome, are not give much credence regarding the use of a properly holstered firearm in a justified SD situation.

    Welcome to OCDO.
    CCers have been known to hand out flyers. wouldnt that have the same affect? where i believe you are wrong is carrying because you want to educate people. NOTHING wrong with educating people, but i dont think you should need your gun to do it. i believe that you should carry a gun for only one reason (OC or CC) and thats to defend ones life or family. yes you did say you also carry for defensive purposes, but i dont believe a gun is a good tool to educate people about guns or the law. especially if they are already afraid of it to begin with.

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    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    The other one got locked while I was typing my reply to you.

    I'll try to be as eloquent now as I was then...

    You had mentioned that CC protects the masses because the bad guys don't know who is armed.

    I will agree that it can have an effect here. But protecting the masses by being known to be blending in with them is not my chief concern. And not all bad guys put that much thought into their opportunistic assaults.

    Open carry will deter an assault on me.

    Never mind that it's just a far more comfortable way to carry a full-size sidearm. And a full-size sidearm is a lot easier to shoot more effectively, often with more appropriate power, too, though this is among the least of its benefits.
    Criminals fear armed citizens. This has already been documented:
    http://www.examiner.com/article/what...armed-citizens

    Or from the horse's mouth (so to speak; skip to 7:12):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVK1xQoxhPI


    By extension, criminals should have even more reason to fear a citizen they KNOW is armed.
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke

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    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    CCers have been known to hand out flyers. wouldnt that have the same affect? where i believe you are wrong is carrying because you want to educate people. NOTHING wrong with educating people, but i dont think you should need your gun to do it. i believe that you should carry a gun for only one reason (OC or CC) and thats to defend ones life or family. yes you did say you also carry for defensive purposes, but i dont believe a gun is a good tool to educate people about guns or the law. especially if they are already afraid of it to begin with.
    Education is a secondary bonus to the protection of family and self, as well as helping you stand straight if you tend to lean towards your weak side (so it's orthopedic, guns are the cure ).

    In all seriousness though, the masses might benefit more if they SEE a citizen is armed, and yet goes about his daily routine without going on a killing spree or having the gun leap out of its holster and attack little kids. We desensitize them to OC, and they realize that armed Law-Abiding Citizens are just that, ARMED Law-Abiding Citizens.
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    CCers have been known to hand out flyers. wouldnt that have the same affect? where i believe you are wrong is carrying because you want to educate people. NOTHING wrong with educating people, but i dont think you should need your gun to do it. i believe that you should carry a gun for only one reason (OC or CC) and thats to defend ones life or family. yes you did say you also carry for defensive purposes, but i dont believe a gun is a good tool to educate people about guns or the law. especially if they are already afraid of it to begin with.
    OC accomplishes the same thing as CC, SD. OCing also does that which CC can not do, is not intended to do, educate, which a fairly famous member here has stated:

    We desensitize them to OC, and they realize that armed Law-Abiding Citizens are just that, ARMED Law-Abiding Citizens. - Rusty Young Man (March 2014)
    Passing out flyers is a worthy work. But, I do not dedicate my energies to spreading "the word" by flyer. Me OCing, in my view, accomplishes the same thing as passing out flyers, yet far less intrusive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Young Man View Post
    Criminals fear armed citizens. This has already been documented:
    http://www.examiner.com/article/what...armed-citizens

    Or from the horse's mouth (so to speak; skip to 7:12):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVK1xQoxhPI


    By extension, criminals should have even more reason to fear a citizen they KNOW is armed.
    yes but that just proved my point. the criminal said when you dont know what to expect out of them it makes it harder. that video just helped prove my point in what i have been saying.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    yes but that just proved my point. the criminal said when you dont know what to expect out of them it makes it harder. that video just helped prove my point in what i have been saying.
    "Harder" is a relative term.

    Not knowing who is carrying is harder for the criminal than knowing all are unarmed, yes. No one can dispute this.

    What you are ignoring is that knowing a certain individual is armed is harder for the criminal to pick that person out of a crowd of only potentially armed victims.

    A person is safer if there are known to be armed people around him.

    The visibly armed person is the safest, however.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    OC accomplishes the same thing as CC, SD. OCing also does that which CC can not do, is not intended to do, educate, which a fairly famous member here has stated:

    Passing out flyers is a worthy work. But, I do not dedicate my energies to spreading "the word" by flyer. Me OCing, in my view, accomplishes the same thing as passing out flyers, yet far less intrusive.
    but in order to start changing things is to change the people who are scared of guns and think "guns are bad" because they are the opposition. they will be harder to sway. a person openly carrying the very thing they fear, i dont believe, will help sway their decistion. people who are on the fence may be easier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    "Harder" is a relative term.

    Not knowing who is carrying is harder for the criminal than knowing all are unarmed, yes. No one can dispute this.

    What you are ignoring is that knowing a certain individual is armed is harder for the criminal to pick that person out of a crowd of only potentially armed victims.

    A person is safer if there are known to be armed people around him.

    The visibly armed person is the safest, however.
    i have heard OCers state, that when they OC it goes unnoticed by a lot out in public. what if it goes unnoticed by the criminal? or your child or wife is blocking view of your gun? he comes up point his gun or knife at you THEN notices you have it. he will probably not take his eyes off you at this point. he may not let you make a single move. he may freak and shoot you. if you CC he wont take much notice to you at first. you apprear to be unarmed. it may give you that moment where he looks around quick to see who is looking. thats just enough time to draw and present, or "react" and catch them by surprise. this is assuming you would react the same if you were OCing as well. i dont want to be accused of being a mass murder again. my point is i dont want to bank on my chances of my gun being the deterant because he/she MIGHT see my gun.

    this is a tad off this guys topic, but a lot will go from OC to CC if they know they will be in large crowds. let me ask this. if you are OCing knowing it wont be crowded, what if you are out later then expected and it becomes crowded? ive had that happen going on shooping sprees with the wife. granted in CCing. but what if you get caught in that situation? and why switch? why not keep it consistant?

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    i have heard OCers state, that when they OC it goes unnoticed by a lot out in public. what if it goes unnoticed by the criminal? or your child or wife is blocking view of your gun? he comes up point his gun or knife at you THEN notices you have it. he will probably not take his eyes off you at this point. he may not let you make a single move. he may freak and shoot you. If you CC he wont take much notice to you at first. you appear to be unarmed. it may give you that moment where he looks around quick to see who is looking. thats just enough time to draw and present, or "react" and catch them by surprise. this is assuming you would react the same if you were OCing as well. i dont want to be accused of being a mass murder again. my point is i don't want to bank on my chances of my gun being the deterrent because he/she MIGHT see my gun.

    this is a tad off this guys topic, but a lot will go from OC to CC if they know they will be in large crowds. let me ask this. if you are OCing knowing it wont be crowded, what if you are out later then expected and it becomes crowded? I've had that happen going on shopping sprees with the wife. granted in CCing. but what if you get caught in that situation? and why switch? why not keep it consistant?
    If you worry about this, you should be buying alien abduction insurance, too.

    Dude, seriously, there's only so many things you can stop. Eventually, you also have to just go on with life.

    The fact remains that OC is statistically the safest of all carrying going on right now.

    I would wager most OC'ers do not change for "crowds." We are far more likely to change to CC because of the weather or because of applicable laws or policies of where we are going.
    Last edited by MAC702; 03-13-2014 at 05:46 PM.
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    unfortunately i also was posting when both threads were locked down...

    however, you seem to forget a basic concept which i noticed only one other forum subscriber mentioned...situational awareness...

    as i posted in another thread yesterday...

    quote: sorry if i was CC'g and the bad guy is standing in visual sight of me, oh say five feet of me with a firearm, no way in hell would i pull my CC'd firearm like johnny hero, since the chance to spook the bad guy to shoot anybody, myself included is now almost 100%.

    nope, my scenario mentality is i stand there like the other good kind folk and act scared and look stupid. Heaven only knows what would occur if the bad guy gets me out of his field of vision...hummmm!!!

    now OC'g and the bad guy got that close with a firearm w/o my seeing them...shame on me and i deserve what ever is about to occur...
    unquote

    with the given and proven parameters of SAwareness, OC' is the deterrent and my self protection as it is meant to be. Remember, while i have the legal right in NC to defend others...it isn't going to happen!! now if the pistol is pointing towards myself or loved ones, i will defend to the exclusion to everyone else.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 03-13-2014 at 05:56 PM.
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    Civil argument is fine, but if your tactic remains skipping from premise to premise and continually narrowing down your hypothetical scenarios until you arrive at something that bears some limited relevance to your position, the minor topic you finally manage to "win" will have been at the cost of the overall argument you came here seeking.

    So I'll just ask, did you come here to learn why others don't esteem the act of concealing their sidearm as highly as you, or are you actually attempting to convince them otherwise?

    Either way, I did find it amusing that although a person may have the same primary reason for carrying as you, you somehow consider it a fault if that is not their only reason for carrying. Might want to consider your logic there before someone else follows up on it.

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    Not too long ago I was having quite a (I thought) pleasant conversation with someone, until they brought up the topic of firearms.

    Somehow the convo wound around to civilians who carry.

    They claimed that they would absolutely and immediately gather anyone they were with and leave a place where they saw someone without a badge/uniform carrying a holstered handgun.

    Upon hearing that, I asked them about those who carried concealed, as there are many more of them than those who carry openly. Their response was basically that that was fine, as long as she didn't know about it being there.

    It was obvious then that she feared an inanimate object and not anyone in particular, so I suggested she spend some time at least in a gun store/show to show her what she fears really won't harm her.

    If she lived closer I would've invited her shooting at some point.

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