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Thread: I'm not an attorney...

  1. #1
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    I'm not an attorney...

    I'm not an attorney...

    Why do people say I'm not an attorney when we discuss these unexplainable laws?

    If I need someone to explain the meaning of a law then it's void for vagueness. And if I need an attorney or court to explain the law then it's more than void for vagueness, it criminal.

    Yes, it's my opinion. Just like attorneys and courts, it's their opinion.

    Idiocracy, when do we take this county back???? We can do this, but how?????

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    I enjoy the assertion "I Am Not A Lawyer" abbreviation, I ANAL, and self-reference.

    Why others do it may be caused by the desperate embrace of authoritarianism here, of seniority, elitism, command, in particularly user names.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Maybe because the elites and powerful attorneys have ruined law with their protectionist education and bar system, something famous attorneys like Jefferson didn't have to go through.

    Of course most attorneys are trained in "case law" over constitutional law too.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    I think maybe some people feel the need to caution their audience that their opinion is not from a trained professional. Indeed, many areas of law require significant time investment to understand properly and an experienced professional is necessary.

    However, there are times when a layperson can (and should) become more of an expert than the trained professional when dealing with areas of the law that affect them often.

    We may not be attorneys, but we all should be underground lawyers.

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Undergroun.../dp/0929801016

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    ...Why do people say I'm not an attorney...
    I don't want there to be any confusion when they start killing all the lawyers.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Why do people say, "I am not an attorney?"

    I believe that this stems from our society having turned rather litigious and from judges/lawyer/attorneys, in general, applying an effective monopoly on all things law. While discussing legal matters between, "normal," humans we may interject our own understandings of both the written laws and the effect the opinions of the, "black robes," and how they will affect our every day life. While speaking on these topics, our expressing our understanding of laws and "legal opinions" it may sound as though we attorneys and giving legal advice. The phrase, "I am not an attorney," is used to relieve ourselves of any legal liability if someone decides to take action based on your expressed opinion of the laws/"legal opinions".

    Side rant.

    If all the laws are only meant to be understood by lawyers and judges then only lawyers and judges can ever, justly, be charged.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    My layman's understanding: Lawyer v. Attorney

    Lawyer = one who studies the law, but does not receive compensation for any advice or information.

    Attorney = one who as passed the state bar exam and is entitled to represent others for a fee.

    Some of my best friends are lawyers, but only a few are attorneys.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Lawyer = one who studies the law, but does not receive compensation for any advice or information.

    Attorney = one who as passed the state bar exam and is entitled to represent others for a fee.

    Some of my best friends are lawyers, but only a few are attorneys.
    The worse part is most attorneys actually think they are lawyers.

    Quiz - There is only one person that can represent the USA before the U.S. Supreme Court. Name that person by title. And why is that person the only one?

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    If all the laws are only meant to be understood by lawyers and judges then only lawyers and judges can ever, justly, be charged.
    Yeah, but that would only be true if mens rea was still any basis for our legal system. Unfortunately, beyond using it loosely to differentiate between degrees of murder charges, it really isn't. Regulation has usurped law and therefore you're guilty of something has usurped guilty until proven innocent. Ok, now I'm depressed...

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    Regular Member Grim_Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    The worse part is most attorneys actually think they are lawyers.

    Quiz - There is only one person that can represent the USA before the U.S. Supreme Court. Name that person by title. And why is that person the only one?

    United States Solicitor General
    Armed and annoyingly well informed!

    There are two constants when dealing with liberals:
    1) Liberals never quit until they are satisfied.
    2) Liberals are never satisfied.

  11. #11
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    The worse part is most attorneys actually think they are lawyers.

    Quiz - There is only one person that can represent the USA before the U.S. Supreme Court. Name that person by title. And why is that person the only one?
    Donald Verrilli, Solicitor General

    via Judiciary Act of 1789 , DOJ > Act of 1870

    Before the formation of the Dept. of Justice, the attorney general had represented the government in legal matters and given legal advice to the executive branch under the authority of the Judiciary Act of 1789, but there was no executive department to assist in carrying out the duties of the office. Because of the mounting responsibilities of the attorney general and because of the growing need for uniformity in the administration of law, a department was created. The act of 1870 also set up the office of solicitor general to represent the government in Supreme Court cases.
    http://www.infoplease.com/encycloped...rtment-of.html
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Grim_Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    /snip]
    I still beat you to it :P And he asked what the person's title was not the name lol
    Armed and annoyingly well informed!

    There are two constants when dealing with liberals:
    1) Liberals never quit until they are satisfied.
    2) Liberals are never satisfied.

  13. #13
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grim_Night View Post
    I still beat you to it :P And he asked what the person's title was not the name lol
    ......
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    The IANAL preface is an attempt to prevent the person saying whatever follows from being accused of practicing law without a license.

    There are two schools of thought about that: 1) as long as you receive no compensation you are in the clear; and 2) even if you get nothing from anybody for voicing your thoughts you are breaking the law. Based on case law, it seems that the "correct" interpretation is that it depends on when, where, under what circumstances, and just how much you embarassed the attorneys by being less wrong than they were. As a matter of fact, I had that exact explanation given to me by a sitting AG.

    I try hard not to use the IANAL ploy by providing citations to uphold my position (and to help others find conflicting points of view if they exist) and by admitting [those extremely rare times] when I am not (yet) knowledgeable about the issue. Which does not mean I don't have an opinion about the matter - it just may not be an informed opinion.

    The bottom line, whether you get your legal advice after paying an attorney for his professional opinion or you go with what some guy's sister's friend's hairdresser heard a guy behind the counter at a gun store say is that you - and you alone - are responsible for deciding if the advice is sound and then for deciding what course of action to take based on that assessment. Caveat emptor.

    stay safe.

    BTW - you can act on my legal opinion of the issue as stated above, or you can pay some attorney who will give you their professional version of what I just said.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Grim_Night is correct, but why is that person the only one?

    The answer is the Solicitor General is the only U.S. officer that is statutorily required to be "learned in law."

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    My learned understanding of attorney versus lawyer.

    An attorney-in-fact, for instance holding a personal power of attorney, is not required to be a lawyer (who is permitted to practice the sovereign's law).
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  17. #17
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    An attorney-in-fact, for instance holding a personal power of attorney, is not required to be a lawyer (who is permitted to practice the sovereign's law).
    Fixed the legalese for you. You will thank me later.

    "Power of Attorney" http://thelawdictionary.org/power-of-attorney-3/

    What is POWER OF ATTORNEY?
    The express authority, given by a principal to an agent or attorney, allowing them to perform an action on the behalf of the principal. A general power of attorney can be issued to any agent or attorney, allowing them to act as they see fit, while a special power of attorney only allows for certain actions and situations.

    Law Dictionary: What is POWER OF ATTORNEY? definition of POWER OF ATTORNEY (Black's Law Dictionary)
    does not allow the person holding POA to do legal acts such as an attorney of record http://thelawdictionary.org/attorneyof-record/ http://thelawdictionary.org/attorney-of-record/ is allowed to do. The easiest way to tell them apart is to stand up in court and talk to the judge - they will let you know which one you are.

    For example: I hold durable power of attorney for medical care decisions should a friend be unable/incompetent to express their wishes regarding their care and treatment. I can tell the doctors what to do or not to do. But if the docs go against what I say when acting as POA, I cannot represent myself or my friend in court in a suit to force them to do what I say. OTOH, I can go into court as a Next Friend (go look it up) and do just that.

    Which is why I say I am a lawyer, but not an attorney. The Brits have refined the guild so that Counselors give advice, Solicitors to civil legal work, and Barristers do the criminal law stuff. It lets the lower-level law school grads have employment that does not endanger life and limb, and lets the other two ranks blame "The System" for not allowing them to take a case as opposded to having to tell the potential client "No, because you are an ass."

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    I'm not an attorney...

    Why do people say I'm not an attorney when we discuss these unexplainable laws?

    If I need someone to explain the meaning of a law then it's void for vagueness. And if I need an attorney or court to explain the law then it's more than void for vagueness, it criminal.

    Yes, it's my opinion. Just like attorneys and courts, it's their opinion.

    Idiocracy, when do we take this county back???? We can do this, but how?????
    Because in every state, its against the law to practice law w/o a license.

    If you think a law is void due to vagueness then it might be so ... or it may not be too vague.

    But I'm not a lawyer so its just my opinion....unedumakated opinion

  19. #19
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Because in every state, its against the law to practice law w/o a license.

    If you think a law is void due to vagueness then it might be so ... or it may not be too vague.

    But I'm not a lawyer so its just my opinion....unedumakated opinion
    Then they are all practicing illegally.

    No state, that I have heard about (I know Washington does not issue, and a radio guest from Texas shared the research showing that Texas does not either) issues a License to practice law.

    Washington wants you to be a member, in good standing, of the BAR association.
    Last edited by Freedom1Man; 03-17-2014 at 05:18 PM.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Then they are all practicing illegally.

    No state, that I have heard about (I know Washington does not issue, and a radio guest from Texas shared the research showing that Texas does not either) issues a License to practice law.

    Washington wants you to be a member, in good standing, of the BAR association.
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/license


    li·cense
    [lahy-suhns] Show IPA
    noun
    1.
    formal permission from a governmental or other constituted authority to do something, as to carry on some business or profession.

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    Each US state and similar jurisdiction (e.g. territories under federal control) has its own court system and sets its own rules for bar admission (or privilege to practice law), which can lead to different admission standards among states. In most cases, a person who is "admitted" to the bar is thereby a "member" of the particular bar.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/license


    li·cense
    [lahy-suhns] Show IPA
    noun
    1.
    formal permission from a governmental or other constituted authority to do something, as to carry on some business or profession.
    Show that the state you're in does issue a license.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Show that the state you're in does issue a license.
    A "license" need not always be a formal document, like a DL.

    James Bond has a license to kill ... doe she get one of these:

    http://www.cupfighter.net/wp-content...3f237ffa4e.jpg

  24. #24
    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    Any time I precede my statements with "IANAL," it's because I'm protecting the reader.

    If I make a statement about law on the Internet I try to do so factually, to the best of my ability. Usually that involves having looked up the law or constitution at some point. It's usually something I feel strongly about, otherwise I wouldn't have looked it up or bothered sharing it on the intertubes.

    However, IANAL, so anything I say should be taken with a grain of salt. Nothing I say is going to get me in trouble, so there's no incentive for me to be factual-other than my own convictions. So in that case anything I say you will want to fact check if you plan on putting my advice to use in the real world.
    "Anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting twice." -Zeus

    "Someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back!" - Malcolm Reynolds

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