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Thread: NRA hurting gun rights by pushing CC over OC in lawsuits?

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    NRA hurting gun rights by pushing CC over OC in lawsuits?

    It seems to me that every lawsuit that the NRA is pushing through the courts right now has one common thread to them. That Concealed carry should be the right of the land, while Open carry can be banned. Unfortunately for the NRA, its a legal path that goes directly against nearly 210 years of Federal and state Court rulings that have stated repeatedly that CC can be limited and that Open carry, is seen as the preferred method (or mode) of carry in the USA.

    As a lifetime NRA member, I have a major issue with this, as I see court case after court case being lost, and in some cases, they are dramatically hurting Open Carry, while doing NOTHING to help Concealed Carry.

    Any opinions?

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    AND they have failed several times, BECAUSE they pushed CC privilege. The courts recognize what is a right, and what is a privilege.
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    they will eventually succeed. the OC movement isn't doing the greatest, just look at what happened in cali. its hard for libs to complain about what they can't see. i believe CC helps more politically than OC does.

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    Campaign Veteran ATM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    they will eventually succeed.
    Doubtful. If they finally abandon defense of our RKBA to pursue only the limited scope of concealed carry, the NRA would eventually become insignificant.
    the OC movement isn't doing the greatest, just look at what happened in cali.
    Across the nation, the OC movement has held as the default unlicensed state of carry in the majority of states and gained ground in several others over the last few years. Not sure how you think it could be doing much better?

    Regarding Cali: they would have continued advancing their restrictions and infringements even if residents had completely given up attempting to carry under the ever narrowing window of legal means.
    Their goal has long been to ban guns and carry from the common populace and reserve such privilege for a chosen few.
    Finally, with their last restriction upon even unloaded open carry, the court has declared that they have gone too far. This was a a turn of the tide and a necessary impetus to reforming/repealing their near ban in much of the state.

    its hard for libs to complain about what they can't see.
    Not at all. They hate the very ideas of freedom and self reliance. Simply seeing guns was not and will never be the driving force behind their agenda.

    i believe CC helps more politically than OC does.
    I can't even begin to imagine how or why.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Privilege has always been the libtard goal. From FDR to now Obama, it is always the privilege that is what they want. Eventually they will start constricting the privilege few to even lower numbers. And the second amendment will suffer if the NRA gets it's way.

    The NRA NEVER has been for the second amendment, they have always been for government, lobbying, and the almighty dollar. They were for the NFA, and the GCA. AND they fully support laws that limit the ability of the poor and underprivileged the right to keep and bear arms. Gun control was based on racism, and so is pay for carry privilege.

    The NRA also supported fully the Murphy Act in Commiefornia.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 03-15-2014 at 05:11 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    they will eventually succeed. the OC movement isn't doing the greatest, just look at what happened in cali. its hard for libs to complain about what they can't see. i believe CC helps more politically than OC does.
    TELL the membership you are not starting this CC over OC crap yet again?? Are you truly trying to push a fourth thread to be closed due to your rambling.

    so pray tell us in your mind what happened in california? please try to be very specifc of what happened and be specific what was the ramifactation(s)?

    finally, why on earth do you believe CC helps more politically? AGAIN be very specific and articulate what in the world your nine word sentence covers, such as who does it help and why?

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 03-15-2014 at 05:37 PM.
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    they will eventually succeed. the OC movement isn't doing the greatest, just look at what happened in cali. its hard for libs to complain about what they can't see. i believe CC helps more politically than OC does.

    What a bunch of tripe!

    It is never the fault of the victim for the actions of the aggressors.


    Blaming people for loosing their rights because they exercised them is one of the imbecilic way of thinking possible.

    Please stay on this forum so that your idiotic asinine rantings lacking an logic can be pointed out to anyone else who might be reading.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    TELL the membership you are not starting this CC over OC crap yet again?? Are you truly trying to push a fourth thread to be closed due to your rambling.

    so pray tell us in your mind what happened in california? please try to be very specifc of what happened and be specific what was the ramifactation(s)?

    finally, why on earth do you believe CC helps more politically? AGAIN be very specific and articulate what in the world your nine word sentence covers, such as who does it help and why?

    ipse
    the threads have closed because i have stated the truth and no one here likes it. should i continue so this one closes to? because it will close because i will state the hard truth which no one here likes and can't handle. continue to OC. someday it will be a thing of the past because of arrogant people like they have here. thats IF they don't ruin the gun communities image by being how they are on here. walkingwolf is a perfect example. childish arrogance.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    the threads have closed because i have stated the truth and no one here likes it. should i continue so this one closes to? because it will close because i will state the hard truth which no one here likes and can't handle. continue to OC. someday it will be a thing of the past because of arrogant people like they have here. thats IF they don't ruin the gun communities image by being how they are on here. walkingwolf is a perfect example. childish arrogance.

    Hahahahaha, the arrogance, immaturity and non existence logic of this post is ironic.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    What a bunch of tripe!

    It is never the fault of the victim for the actions of the aggressors.


    Blaming people for loosing their rights because they exercised them is one of the imbecilic way of thinking possible.

    Please stay on this forum so that your idiotic asinine rantings lacking an logic can be pointed out to anyone else who might be reading.
    comparing a victim to OC it makes no sense what so ever. i got bashes for comparing cops to OC which would have more merit than your comparison. cali is hardly a state when it comes to peoples gun rights. you think thats the best place to be shoving you gun i someones face KNOWING they would shut you down. such a great tactic. i could have told you that was coming. the arrogance of some people here, psh no one would listen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Hahahahaha, the arrogance, immaturity and non existence logic of this post is ironic.
    since thats your argument i would assume you are at a lost for words and have no rebuttal. i like it. continue you comment that lead to no where.

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    Wowwie!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    comparing a victim to OC it makes no sense what so ever. i got bashes for comparing cops to OC which would have more merit than your comparison. cali is hardly a state when it comes to peoples gun rights. you think thats the best place to be shoving you gun i someones face KNOWING they would shut you down. such a great tactic. i could have told you that was coming. the arrogance of some people here, psh no one would listen.
    This is an "Anti-Speak" comparison to Open Carry...
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    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

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    cricket cricket. figures. don't bather responding anymore unless you want another thread closed due to a dose of the truth pill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    the threads have closed because i have stated the truth and no one here likes it. should i continue so this one closes to? because it will close because i will state the hard truth which no one here likes and can't handle. continue to OC. someday it will be a thing of the past because of arrogant people like they have here. thats IF they don't ruin the gun communities image by being how they are on here. walkingwolf is a perfect example. childish arrogance.
    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    cricket cricket. figures. don't bather(sic) responding anymore unless you want another thread closed due to a dose of the truth pill.
    No crickets here, sir - just people tired of having a discussion with someone with an unpleasant attitude and who has demonstrated a willingness to break forum rules.

    You pervert the truth as you know full well why the other threads were locked (reasons were given in each case) and doing so was no validation of your self-anointed veracity. You have offered naught but biased opinion in the face of facts and shown not the least bit common courtesy.
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    Campaign Veteran ATM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    cricket cricket. figures. don't bather responding anymore unless you want another thread closed due to a dose of the truth pill.
    I dismantled your posted points above expecting some responses if you were able. Have you chosen to cede those points so quickly?

    I understand if you'd rather skip past the actual refutations and pretend that your "truth pill" went unchallenged, but that is simply not the case.

    Heck, at least make an attempt.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATM View Post
    I dismantled your posted points above expecting some responses if you were able. Have you chosen to cede those points so quickly?

    I understand if you'd rather skip past the actual refutations and pretend that your "truth pill" went unchallenged, but that is simply not the case.

    Heck, at least make an attempt.
    He can't, all he has is some myth and talking points from Pincus, and Runaway Yeager. Just like Yeager he goes off the deep end every time he does not get his way.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    I'm going to try to get this subject back on track.

    If the NRA concentrated on the true meaning of the Second Amendment, supporting open carry and conceal carry equally, then maybe they would garner more support. But alas, they are to busy feeding their ego.

    If they used their weight to correct some state issues denying all gun owner rights, other states would start to fall in line.

    In Kentucky you can carry your gun in your unlocked glove compartment without a permit. Carrying your gun in your car in Ohio is concealed without a permit.

    Ohio believes you don't own your car. Where is the NRA? Nowhere.....

    I will not join an org. that won't fight for my rights.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    This topic makes me think of many things that may sound trite at first such as:
    The perfect is the enemy of the good/better.
    A diffference in strategy is not necessarily a difference in objective.
    Someone not your enemy is not necessarily your friend and just because they're not your friend doesn't mean they're your enemy.

    As I pointed out in another thread, we have made massive progress with CC as shown by these maps: http://www.gun-nuttery.com/rtc.php

    I am obviously a supporter of OC, but I do see some wisdom in pushing CC first. Women generally are more anti-gun than men. The fastest growing group of firearm owners are women and the number of women CC continues to grow. Which women are more likely to react negatively to OC? The woman who has never even shot a gun or the woman who has a 380 sitting in her purse or on her hip? People who are marginal about seeing OC are ok with CC. Increasing CC helps normalize the ownership, use and posesssion of firearms. Normalizing citizen gun ownership and carry is part of our oft stated reason for OC.

    Certainly most of us would like to see national constitutional carry. But we have even made progress on this front. That's not perfect but it certainly is better. I don't see being able to OC in NYC or SF in my lifetime, but I do see MO becoming a gold star OC state, maybe even constitutional carry. I also think it not impossible that I would CC most anywhere under some type, even if limited, national CC reciprocity.

    I also think of the whole Starbucks thing. Many of us were concerned that some of the over exhuberance in "supporting" Starbucks was a mistake as their libertarian "not our enemy" was confused with their being our friend. That obviously backfired to some extent, although I do give credit to Starbucks for asking for restraint rather than going with a national ban. That whole thing was an unforced error on OC supporters. By the same token, the NRA, while not always (to some not often) OC's friend, they also are not necessarily an enemy. Political realities in some states means either getting nothing or gettingCC with stupid restrictions. But everywhere we get CC, the blood in the street fantasies of the anti-2A crowd are proven to be nonsense and we almost always end up slowly loosening up the CC restrictions. Several states moved into the OC column to varying degrees. The NRA wasn't necessarily an ally through the entire fight, but once CC was well established and without need of further immediate support, they were not necessarily the enemy of moving the bar towards more 2A.

    The bigger the organization, the more compromise they need to make because of diversity of membership. The NRA is quite large and that's their political reality. Also, they don't have an unlimited war chest and have to pick and choose what they deem the best bang for the buck for their average membership. Not all 5 mill will agree, but not all will disagree either.

    We need to find common ground where we can, fight fairly with each other when we can't and keep the common aspects of our goals always in mind.

  19. #19
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    well and fairly stated w/o the emotional baggage..

    nicely done.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  20. #20
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    The road to gun control has always been paved with compromise. The past of the NRA's involvement in gun control cannot be ignored.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Quote Originally Posted by deepdiver View Post
    This topic makes me think of many things that may sound trite at first such as:
    The perfect is the enemy of the good/better.
    A diffference in strategy is not necessarily a difference in objective.
    Someone not your enemy is not necessarily your friend and just because they're not your friend doesn't mean they're your enemy.

    As I pointed out in another thread, we have made massive progress with CC as shown by these maps: http://www.gun-nuttery.com/rtc.php

    I am obviously a supporter of OC, but I do see some wisdom in pushing CC first. Women generally are more anti-gun than men. The fastest growing group of firearm owners are women and the number of women CC continues to grow. Which women are more likely to react negatively to OC? The woman who has never even shot a gun or the woman who has a 380 sitting in her purse or on her hip? People who are marginal about seeing OC are ok with CC. Increasing CC helps normalize the ownership, use and posesssion of firearms. Normalizing citizen gun ownership and carry is part of our oft stated reason for OC.

    Certainly most of us would like to see national constitutional carry. But we have even made progress on this front. That's not perfect but it certainly is better. I don't see being able to OC in NYC or SF in my lifetime, but I do see MO becoming a gold star OC state, maybe even constitutional carry. I also think it not impossible that I would CC most anywhere under some type, even if limited, national CC reciprocity.

    I also think of the whole Starbucks thing. Many of us were concerned that some of the over exhuberance in "supporting" Starbucks was a mistake as their libertarian "not our enemy" was confused with their being our friend. That obviously backfired to some extent, although I do give credit to Starbucks for asking for restraint rather than going with a national ban. That whole thing was an unforced error on OC supporters. By the same token, the NRA, while not always (to some not often) OC's friend, they also are not necessarily an enemy. Political realities in some states means either getting nothing or gettingCC with stupid restrictions. But everywhere we get CC, the blood in the street fantasies of the anti-2A crowd are proven to be nonsense and we almost always end up slowly loosening up the CC restrictions. Several states moved into the OC column to varying degrees. The NRA wasn't necessarily an ally through the entire fight, but once CC was well established and without need of further immediate support, they were not necessarily the enemy of moving the bar towards more 2A.

    The bigger the organization, the more compromise they need to make because of diversity of membership. The NRA is quite large and that's their political reality. Also, they don't have an unlimited war chest and have to pick and choose what they deem the best bang for the buck for their average membership. Not all 5 mill will agree, but not all will disagree either.

    We need to find common ground where we can, fight fairly with each other when we can't and keep the common aspects of our goals always in mind.
    agreed. this is a point i have been trying to make.

  22. #22
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by g21sfpistol View Post
    agreed. this is a point i have been trying to make.
    oh my goodness...are you for real? TRULY?

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  23. #23
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    FUQ

    In the 1920s and 1930s, the NRA’s leaders helped write and lobby for the first federal gun control laws—the very kinds of laws that the modern NRA labels as the height of tryanny. The 17th Amendment outlawing alchohol became law in 1920 and was soon followed by the emergence of big city gangsters who outgunned the police by killing rivals with sawed-off shotguns and machine guns—today called automatic weapons.

    In the early 1920s, the National Revolver Association—the NRA’s handgun training counterpart—proposed model legislation for states that included requiring a permit to carry a concealed weapon, adding five years to a prison sentence if a gun was used in a crime, and banning non-citizens from buying a handgun. They also proposed that gun dealers turn over sales records to police and created a one-day waiting period between buying a gun and getting it—two provisions that the NRA opposes today.


    http://www.salon.com/2013/01/14/the_...d_gun_control/
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  24. #24
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    FUQ

    In the 1920s and 1930s, the NRA’s leaders helped write and lobby for the first federal gun control laws—the very kinds of laws that the modern NRA labels as the height of tryanny. The 17th Amendment outlawing alchohol became law in 1920 and was soon followed by the emergence of big city gangsters who outgunned the police by killing rivals with sawed-off shotguns and machine guns—today called automatic weapons.

    In the early 1920s, the National Revolver Association—the NRA’s handgun training counterpart—proposed model legislation for states that included requiring a permit to carry a concealed weapon, adding five years to a prison sentence if a gun was used in a crime, and banning non-citizens from buying a handgun. They also proposed that gun dealers turn over sales records to police and created a one-day waiting period between buying a gun and getting it—two provisions that the NRA opposes today.


    http://www.salon.com/2013/01/14/the_...d_gun_control/
    The sole purpose of the modern NRA is to make money, and make fools of gun owners. They are doing well at accomplishing both.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    deepdiver, I, in general, don't disagree. But, as I said, getting more states in line will go further than national issues. I don't mean to ignore national issues.

    Wyoming constitutional carry was, for the most part, single handily accomplished by one guy. And with no help of the NRA.

    Texas is suppose to be a great gun state. NOT!!!! Cant open carry.

    These state issues can be overcome with a little help, but I don't see it happening.....
    Last edited by color of law; 03-16-2014 at 08:35 PM.

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