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Thread: Court reverses concealed carry conviction over unwarranted stop and frisk

  1. #1
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    Court reverses concealed carry conviction over Terry unwarranted stop and frisk

    Looking at a passing police car in high crime area doesn't justify being stopped and frisked -- even if you also touch the outside of your pants pocket, the state Court of Appeals ruled Tuesday. The decision reverses a Milwaukee man's convictions for carrying a concealed gun, and drug possession.

    Patrick E. Gordon, 22, and two friends were walking along Keefe Avenue about 11 p.m. in August 2012 when police went by in a squad car. The officers stopped and asked the trio to put up their hands, then patted them down. They found a .22 caliber hand gun and some cocaine in Gordon's pockets.
    [ ... ]
    "Permitting Terry stops of persons momentarily patting the outside of their clothing when the only additional facts are that those persons are in a high crime area and have seen a cruising police car would expand the individualized reasonable suspicion” requirement so far so as to negate it," the court found.

    http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/250856211.html

    The slip opinion
    http://www.wicourts.gov/ca/opinion/D...l&seqNo=109202
    Last edited by Nightmare; 03-19-2014 at 05:55 AM.
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    Terry stops are suppose to meet certain legal requirements. The court decided this stop did not meet those it is nice to see system working.
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Lemme see.....your "looks" can be RAS, and now "you looking" is RAS.....or was, in this particular case. Very dangerous ground indeed.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Yetiman's Avatar
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    And yet..... "They found a .22 caliber hand gun and some cocaine in Gordon's pockets".

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetiman View Post
    And yet..... "They found a .22 caliber hand gun and some cocaine in Gordon's pockets".
    Two wrongs don't make a right.

    Should we live inn a police state were the police can stop, frisk, and detain anyone at any time for any reason?

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Good another case that show RAS isn't up to a judge, and that cops don't get to do stuff just because they are "suspicious".
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
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    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Terry stops are suppose to meet certain legal requirements. The court decided this stop did not meet those it is nice to see system working.
    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Good another case that show RAS isn't up to a judge, and that cops don't get to do stuff just because they are "suspicious".
    +1 to both.

    Another example of the courts doing their job.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetiman View Post
    And yet..... "They found a .22 caliber hand gun and some cocaine in Gordon's pockets".
    Indeed. Considering how much fruitless fishing they undoubtedly engaged in to finally achieve this result, and how many victims of police abuse that represents, this outcome represents small consolation.
    Last edited by marshaul; 03-19-2014 at 10:53 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    [...] this outcome represents small consolation.
    Imagine it in terms of Blackstone's Ratio, "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Imagine it in terms of Blackstone's Ratio, "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"
    Long gone and out dated.

    Cops and the courts don't do that any more. It is the exception, that case, these days, not the rule.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    I hope anyone in judge Clare Fioiorenza's court for a gun-related charge uses this case as evidence of her bias to get their case moved to a neutral judge.

    She sentenced him to 3 years' probation for the drugs (federally illegal, packaged to sell - 5 baggies of marijuana, 22 of cocaine),
    but 4 months of jail for the gun possession (Constitutionally-protected, even though he was carrying it in a non-state-approved manner).

    And while she's OK with expunging the drug conviction, she refused to let the gun conviction be expunged.

    And she refused to stay the sentence while the appeal was heard. So he likely did the whole 4 months for a 'crime' he's just been exonerated of. Hope he gets a good lawyer & makes her & MPD pay a large settlement.

    And why would she sentence him to a parenting class? This had nothing to do with any child, nor was his ability to care for a child brought into question.

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    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    I hope anyone in judge Clare Fioiorenza's court for a gun-related charge uses this case as evidence of her bias to get their case moved to a neutral judge.

    She sentenced him to 3 years' probation for the drugs (federally illegal, packaged to sell - 5 baggies of marijuana, 22 of cocaine),
    but 4 months of jail for the gun possession (Constitutionally-protected, even though he was carrying it in a non-state-approved manner).

    And while she's OK with expunging the drug conviction, she refused to let the gun conviction be expunged.

    And she refused to stay the sentence while the appeal was heard. So he likely did the whole 4 months for a 'crime' he's just been exonerated of. Hope he gets a good lawyer & makes her & MPD pay a large settlement.

    And why would she sentence him to a parenting class? This had nothing to do with any child, nor was his ability to care for a child brought into question.



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    Regular Member cirrusly's Avatar
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    Yikes. I haven't heard of stop and frisk in Wisconsin, and I lived there for 18 years. A lot has changed since I left.


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    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cirrusly View Post
    Yikes. I haven't heard of stop and frisk in Wisconsin, and I lived there for 18 years. A lot has changed since I left.


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    Prior to 2011 it was damn near a police state. Everything and anything was a crime and excuse for police to taze and beat, not to mention commit serial rapes a la UW Stout. Things are finally headed in the other direction.





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    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    I gotta say, it's amazing what Act 35 did to the confidence level of the jackboots who abused the public. In one town, all the much hated old timers suddenly retired. Coincidentally, the economy in that town took a sudden upswing. Who knew?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    "Permitting Terry stops of persons momentarily patting the outside of their clothing when the only additional facts are that those persons are in a high crime area and have seen a cruising police car would expand the individualized reasonable suspicion” requirement so far so as to negate it," the court found.
    Exactly, and thank you for posting this resource, Nightmare.

    It reminds me of a very similar situation I just stumbled across, complete with video.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetiman View Post
    And yet..... "They found a .22 caliber hand gun and some cocaine in Gordon's pockets".
    Sounds like a win to me. In fact random stop and frisk's are a great tool to dissuade disobedience.
    I look forward to them expanding the success into random home searches. As it is criminals get to hide their filthy crimes in their homes without the worry of being caught unless probable cause is achieved to search it. Terribly inefficient. Random searches, say 50-100 homes a night per jurisdiction, will go along way to keep us safe.
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    Wowwie!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    Sounds like a win to me. In fact random stop and frisk's are a great tool to dissuade disobedience.
    I look forward to them expanding the success into random home searches. As it is criminals get to hide their filthy crimes in their homes without the worry of being caught unless probable cause is achieved to search it. Terribly inefficient. Random searches, say 50-100 homes a night per jurisdiction, will go along way to keep us safe.
    +eleventy,,,, yah,, I mean that,,,

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    Home searches have been proposed in the effort to remove guns from crime ridden communities, particularly Milwaukee, as I believe. Random or not is in the eye of the beholder.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Terry stops are suppose to meet certain legal requirements. The court decided this stop did not meet those it is nice to see system working.
    Well, technically, if the system was working the cops wouldn't be breaking the law.
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