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Thread: Double barreled AR-15 ?!?

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    Regular Member Lord Sega's Avatar
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    Double barreled AR-15 ?!?

    Silver Shadow has a double barreled AR-15, two barrels that are fired simultaneously, essentially double tapping on a single trigger pull.

    LINK

    First, yes/cool/want OR no/horrible/no way ??? Comments?

    Second, I would not call it an automatic, in that it does not continue to fire until the mag is empty or the trigger is released. (although they do have a true full-auto version).
    BUT, can it legally be called a semi-auto? Isn't semi-auto one round per trigger pull? Here you have two per pull.
    I'm thinking that legally it would be a burst rifle (what's the correct term?), and since it is not one round per one trigger pull it would fall under ATF "permission slip required" rules.

    Third, for states that have ammo mag restrictions, would this configuration design end-around the restrictions? I.e. if the restriction is on the number on rounds in the mag, here you could have 2 separate mags at 10 rounds each for 20 total, BUT if the restriction is on number of rounds in the firearm then you are back to five in each to total 10 and not go over.

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  2. #2
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    It is a Class III gun.

    "A machine gun is any gun that can fire more than one shot with a single pull of the trigger,...."
    http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/nfa_..._An_NFA_Weapon

    IMO - both barrels could be bolt action and it would still be Class III.
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    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Does that mean that the double-barrel 1911 by Arsenal Firearms is also Class III? It comes with a single-spur, double-hammer, so I'm guessing the two triggers are also connected to give two shots per trigger pull.



    Add.
    I realize it's already cost-prohibitive, and I won't speak about taste (still not sure about this particular spin on the platform), but my curiosity has me itching to try one out.
    Last edited by Rusty Young Man; 03-28-2014 at 04:11 PM. Reason: Addendum
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    Sales: zero.

    Who would even want one?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Young Man View Post
    Does that mean that the double-barrel 1911 by Arsenal Firearms is also Class III? It comes with a single-spur, double-hammer, so I'm guessing the two triggers are also connected to give two shots per trigger pull.
    --snipped--
    Available with either single or double triggers.

    "The model with two triggers would be legal in the United States but the model with one trigger would be considered a machine gun (two rounds fired in one trigger pull). A version with one trigger that alternates between each hammer would be a lot more interesting in my opinion."
    http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...e-barrel-1911/
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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    It is a Class III gun.

    "A machine gun is any gun that can fire more than one shot with a single pull of the trigger,...."
    http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/nfa_..._An_NFA_Weapon

    IMO - both barrels could be bolt action and it would still be Class III.
    Dam my over and under shotgun can shoot both barrels with one trigger pull....I should expect the ATF soon I guess.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Available with either single or double triggers.

    "The model with two triggers would be legal in the United States but the model with one trigger would be considered a machine gun (two rounds fired in one trigger pull). A version with one trigger that alternates between each hammer would be a lot more interesting in my opinion."
    http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...e-barrel-1911/
    Two separate triggers going off at slightly different times on a gun with only one slide... I see a possibility for an out-of-battery kaboom.
    Guess I'll have to settle for renting some range time with a single-trigger version then.


    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Sales: zero.

    Who would even want one?
    It would be an exclusively "just for fun" gun. Not unlike "BBQ guns" or so-called "Franken-guns".
    Last edited by Rusty Young Man; 03-28-2014 at 05:56 PM.
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    Dam my over and under shotgun can shoot both barrels with one trigger pull....I should expect the ATF soon I guess.
    Had a side by side that did the same thing AND the receiver unlocked

    Came back from that hunting trip with a new pump.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    It is a Class III gun.

    "A machine gun is any gun that can fire more than one shot with a single pull of the trigger,...."
    http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/nfa_..._An_NFA_Weapon

    IMO - both barrels could be bolt action and it would still be Class III.
    But, if it had or has 2 distinct triggers it would not be a Class III firearm PER US LAW! as it would only fire a single round per trigger pull with 2 rounds fired simultaneously for the simultaneous action of 2 triggers!
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    But, if it had or has 2 distinct triggers it would not be a Class III firearm PER US LAW! as it would only fire a single round per trigger pull with 2 rounds fired simultaneously for the simultaneous action of 2 triggers!
    Referring to the OP double barreled AR - it only has one trigger and fires a double tap with a single pull of the single trigger.

    The double barrel 1911 from Arsenal Firearms is availble either way.

    Please buy one of each and give us a detailed analysis
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    I thought that numerous double barrel shotguns as well as Derringer-type pistols fired multiple shots through their own respective barrels from a single trigger pull. All of those weapons are machine guns?
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    Regular Member DrakeZ07's Avatar
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    Does this mean I have to sell my Dad's shotgun he left me upon his death, and been in the family since the 1940s, because it is a double-barreled shotgun, side-by-side, and can fire both rounds at the same time, while only having one trigger, but two hammers? If so, I know a lot of people who could face arrest/jail-time for owning class 3 weapons because of having such things that they, or their past-family bought here and there. What's the penalty for having a class 3 without licenses/Tax stamps? Should I just sell the shotgun? or do I need to turn it over to the State police?
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  13. #13
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeZ07 View Post
    Does this mean I have to sell my Dad's shotgun he left me upon his death, and been in the family since the 1940s, because it is a double-barreled shotgun, side-by-side, and can fire both rounds at the same time, while only having one trigger, but two hammers? If so, I know a lot of people who could face arrest/jail-time for owning class 3 weapons because of having such things that they, or their past-family bought here and there. What's the penalty for having a class 3 without licenses/Tax stamps? Should I just sell the shotgun? or do I need to turn it over to the State police?
    Have the select trigger fixed.

    We're from the ATF and we are here to help you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    I thought that numerous double barrel shotguns as well as Derringer-type pistols fired multiple shots through their own respective barrels from a single trigger pull. All of those weapons are machine guns?
    http://www.antiquemystique.com/images/6378b.jpg

    ^^ 2 triggers

    http://www.ammoland.com/wp-content/u...-shotgun-3.jpg

    ^^ single trigger (1 pull = one shot ~ you can select which one shoots first)

    guess most folks never owned a double barrel ... some have single trigger that only shoots 1 barrel at a time ...

    They are a hoot ...

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Available with either single or double triggers.

    "The model with two triggers would be legal in the United States but the model with one trigger would be considered a machine gun (two rounds fired in one trigger pull). A version with one trigger that alternates between each hammer would be a lot more interesting in my opinion."
    http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...e-barrel-1911/
    Since the slide operates both actions at the same time, there is no way to do that practically. One round firing will attempt to extract and eject the loaded round in the other barrel as well, and with only half the recoil energy.

    Sure it would be legal now, but really, really stupid.
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  16. #16
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Grapeshot

    Available with either single or double triggers.

    "The model with two triggers would be legal in the United States but the model with one trigger would be considered a machine gun (two rounds fired in one trigger pull). A version with one trigger that alternates between each hammer would be a lot more interesting in my opinion."
    http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...e-barrel-1911/
    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Since the slide operates both actions at the same time, there is no way to do that practically. One round firing will attempt to extract and eject the loaded round in the other barrel as well, and with only half the recoil energy.

    Sure it would be legal now, but really, really stupid.
    Don't shoot the messenger.

    He never said it would be easy - maybe split the slide so that they can operate independently

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    Could they not link the triggers? That way when you pull one trigger it mechanically pulls the other. It would make sure that two triggers are pulled and that they both fire at the same time. Also depending on how the ATF defines a "trigger" they could just call the visible part an "actuator" or something with the technical triggers not being visible. Thus pulling the "actuator" pulls both technical triggers at the same time.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    Could they not link the triggers? That way when you pull one trigger it mechanically pulls the other. It would make sure that two triggers are pulled and that they both fire at the same time. Also depending on how the ATF defines a "trigger" they could just call the visible part an "actuator" or something with the technical triggers not being visible. Thus pulling the "actuator" pulls both technical triggers at the same time.
    You've never played Truth or Dare with the ATF have you.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Sales: zero.

    Who would even want one?
    DMB "my experience is the rule" is back at it, I see.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    Could they not link the triggers? That way when you pull one trigger it mechanically pulls the other. It would make sure that two triggers are pulled and that they both fire at the same time. Also depending on how the ATF defines a "trigger" they could just call the visible part an "actuator" or something with the technical triggers not being visible. Thus pulling the "actuator" pulls both technical triggers at the same time.
    Supposedly that's what was done with the AF2011-A1. Then again, I still hear folks arguing over whether that thing is Class III.

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    Regular Member Baked on Grease's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    It is a Class III gun.

    "A machine gun is any gun that can fire more than one shot with a single pull of the trigger,...."
    http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/nfa_..._An_NFA_Weapon

    IMO - both barrels could be bolt action and it would still be Class III.
    I remember someone here linked a letter from the ATF about these double barrel guns. Their opinion was that is was NOT a class 3 item. The said something to the effect of: they 'understand that the definition to mean one cycle per trigger pull. So long as the trigger must be released and depressed a second time to initiate a second cycle it is still a semiautomatic weapon. You could fire a thousand barrels at once to expel a thousand rounds at a time so long as the trigger only initiates a single cycling of the action."

    I am on a mobile and at work so my Google powers are limited. .. If it's not found by the time I get home I'll hunt for it then.

    Also according to that definition a single 'shot' does not necessarily mean a single bullet but can easily be interpreted to mean a single cycling of the action as a shot. Otherwise a shotgun could be defined as a class 3 item since each pellet could be defined as a 'shot' if it is then interchangeable with 'bullet' in the law...

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    Last edited by Baked on Grease; 03-29-2014 at 05:38 PM.
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  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Ah, that's a really good point. Clearly "shot" cannot mean "projectile", or else the law would refer to shotguns, which nobody thinks for a minute was the intended effect.

    So if one "shot" can constitute multiple projectiles, why must it be limited to a single cartridge?

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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baked on Grease View Post
    I remember someone here linked a letter from the ATF about these double barrel guns. Their opinion was that is was NOT a class 3 item. The said something to the effect of: they 'understand that the definition to mean one cycle per trigger pull. So long as the trigger must be released and depressed a second time to initiate a second cycle it is still a semiautomatic weapon. You could fire a thousand barrels at once to expel a thousand rounds at a time so long as the trigger only initiates a single cycling of the action."

    I am on a mobile and at work so my Google powers are limited. .. If it's not found by the time I get home I'll hunt for it then.

    Also according to that definition a single 'shot' does not necessarily mean a single bullet but can easily be interpreted to mean a single cycling of the action as a shot. Otherwise a shotgun could be defined as a class 3 item since each pellet could be defined as a 'shot' if it is then interchangeable with 'bullet' in the law...

    Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk
    Makes sense. Thank you. I don't doubt you, but I'm anxious to see that letter
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    Regular Member Baked on Grease's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    Makes sense. Thank you. I don't doubt you, but I'm anxious to see that letter
    Been looking and looking and looking... I can find a few forum posts (on other websites like Reddit) where people mention the same letter I talked about, but no one linking the actual damn letter. Contacted a few people who might know and/or might have saved it off on their computers. Will update when I get a response back.
    "A Right Un-exercised is a Right Lost"

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    ...You half to appreciate that.
    Well played, sir!
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