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Thread: Open Carry on bicycles.

  1. #1
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    Open Carry on bicycles.

    Thought this might help:

    MC: 257.79

    MICHIGAN VEHICLE CODE (EXCERPT)
    Act 300 of 1949


    257.79 “Vehicle” defined.
    Sec. 79.

    “Vehicle” means every device in, upon, or by which any person or property is or may be transported or drawn upon a highway, except devices exclusively moved by human power or used exclusively upon stationary rails or tracks and except, only for the purpose of titling and registration under this act, a mobile home as defined in section 2 of the mobile home commission act, Act No. 96 of the Public Acts of 1987, being section 125.2302 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.


    History: 1949, Act 300, Eff. Sept. 23, 1949 ;-- Am. 1976, Act 439, Imd. Eff. Jan. 13, 1977 ;-- Am. 1978, Act 568, Eff. Jan. 6, 1979 ;-- Am. 1992, Act 134, Eff. Oct. 1, 1992

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    But it's not defined in MCL 750.227. A court might use this definition, another definition found within the MCLs, or a dictionary. A bicycle would certainly meet the dictionary definition.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Mike Stilly - got a group together years back and rode around OCing... no issues. However - cops don't like to mess with groups unless they really need or want to. So IMHO without a MI CPL or equivalent from another state, one risks much doing a bicycle ride in MI while armed.
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 03-31-2014 at 05:30 PM.
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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    The age old debate.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    Mike Stilly - got a group together years back and rode around OCing... no issues. However - cops don't like to mess with groups unless they really need or want to. So IMHO without a MI CPL or equivalent from another state, one risks much doing a bicycle ride in MI while armed.
    Keep in mind though, that event (especially the bicycle portion of it) was something of a sick joke. I don't think it was even a mile, and it was police supervised, as in they were driving around as we did it, and if I remember right having cops stationed at various corners. I went along for about 30 seconds, then turned around and went back to the pavilion. You could do a bike ride, or you could coddle the egos of a bunch of cops from a repetitiously criminally abusive department. The bicycle ride part of that event was the latter. (The rest of it was a well done picnic, mike even had custom made T shirts for it)

    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    The age old debate.
    Yep, I seem to recall it was the first thread I ever posted here.
    Last edited by Michigander; 04-02-2014 at 01:26 PM.
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    I have analyzed states vehicle codes for a bicyclist rights advocacy organization, LABReform.org. By their standards and that I used, it is an automatic fail for a state to not recognize a bicycle as a vehicle. "Cyclists fare best when seen as and acting as drivers of vehicles."
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    I have analyzed states vehicle codes for a bicyclist rights advocacy organization, LABReform.org. By their standards and that I used, it is an automatic fail for a state to not recognize a bicycle as a vehicle. "Cyclists fare best when seen as and acting as drivers of vehicles."
    Maybe so, but in MI it forces them to pay roughly $300 for a state approved permission slip when all is said & done. This for the "luxury" of being able to defend ones self while taking a bicycle ride...
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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    Maybe so, but in MI it forces them to pay roughly $300 for a state approved permission slip when all is said & done. This for the "luxury" of being able to defend ones self while taking a bicycle ride...
    At least Michigan is a single party consent state. Is Arizona?
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Yes - including public officials & LE. For such an all knowing person...never mind ...

    http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/arizona-recording-law
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 04-02-2014 at 01:49 AM.
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    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

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    Cool

    Humm aren't bicycles non motorized and hence not part of that law....

    Now what was the ruling on ATV"S I read about some time back, (same line of reasoning) you are not enclosed, OC ATV, snow mobiles, public lands... damn getting old sucks...

    N side note Galco shoulder rig for bicycle XDM .40 with spare mags.... tends to stay put and not flop around when properly used....
    Last edited by Sheldon; 04-02-2014 at 01:20 PM.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon View Post
    Humm aren't bicycles non motorized and hence not part of that law....

    Now what was the ruling on ATV"S I read about some time back, (same line of reasoning) you are not enclosed, OC ATV, snow mobiles, public lands... damn getting old sucks...

    N side note Galco shoulder rig for bicycle XDM .40 with spare mags.... tends to stay put and not flop around when properly used....
    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    But it's not defined in MCL 750.227. A court might use this definition, another definition found within the MCLs, or a dictionary. A bicycle would certainly meet the dictionary definition.
    Quote Originally Posted by Small_Arms_Collector View Post
    Thought this might help:

    MC: 257.79

    MICHIGAN VEHICLE CODE (EXCERPT)
    Act 300 of 1949


    257.79 “Vehicle” defined.
    Sec. 79.

    “Vehicle” means every device in, upon, or by which any person or property is or may be transported or drawn upon a highway, except devices exclusively moved by human power or used exclusively upon stationary rails or tracks and except, only for the purpose of titling and registration under this act, a mobile home as defined in section 2 of the mobile home commission act, Act No. 96 of the Public Acts of 1987, being section 125.2302 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.


    History: 1949, Act 300, Eff. Sept. 23, 1949 ;-- Am. 1976, Act 439, Imd. Eff. Jan. 13, 1977 ;-- Am. 1978, Act 568, Eff. Jan. 6, 1979 ;-- Am. 1992, Act 134, Eff. Oct. 1, 1992
    Sheldon - there in lies the problems. Multiple choices for a prosecutor & judge/jury to understand and apply to a OCer. Hell, even a pair of roller skates "could" be considered a vehicle under parts of MCL! Thus non CPL holding OCers in MI are left doing the hush puppy express or roll the dice on becoming a criminal for what is completely legal in many other states.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    Sheldon - there in lies the problems. Multiple choices for a prosecutor & judge/jury to understand and apply to a OCer. Hell, even a pair of roller skates "could" be considered a vehicle under parts of MCL! Thus non CPL holding OCers in MI are left doing the hush puppy express or roll the dice on becoming a criminal for what is completely legal in many other states.
    This is why everyone in Michigan who carries should get a CPL. Once you have that, there is not a lot left open to interpretation. I realize the cost and the hassle, but it saves a lot of what if’s down the road.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    Yes - including public officials & LE. For such an all knowing person...never mind ...

    http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/arizona-recording-law
    There was an item recently that was freedom oriented that AZ fell short on -/ I forget what ATM
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member Golden Eagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon View Post
    Humm aren't bicycles non motorized and hence not part of that law....

    Now what was the ruling on ATV"S I read about some time back, (same line of reasoning) you are not enclosed, OC ATV, snow mobiles, public lands... damn getting old sucks...

    N side note Galco shoulder rig for bicycle XDM .40 with spare mags.... tends to stay put and not flop around when properly used....

    Sorry no... the word "motorized" isn't used in MI pistol laws.

    I focus on the words "...in a vehicle..." 750.227 (2)
    The news media plays politics more than the politicians do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Eagle View Post
    Sorry no... the word "motorized" isn't used in MI pistol laws.

    I focus on the words "...in a vehicle..." 750.227 (2)
    Key word "IN" and then here is "ON" such as bicycle, ATV, Snowmobile, which is what that ruling was based on, damn I wish I could remember where I read that, should have tagged it!!!

    The base of the argument was you can be in a car, or in a pickup, but it is On a Bicycle, ATV...
    Last edited by Sheldon; 04-07-2014 at 12:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon View Post
    Key word "IN" and then here is "ON" such as bicycle, ATV, Snowmobile, which is what that ruling was based on, damn I wish I could remember where I read that, should have tagged it!!!

    The base of the argument was you can be in a car, or in a pickup, but it is On a Bicycle, ATV...
    This may or may not be the thread as there are other threads from around that time which included quoted statements (emails) from a then MSP, Sgt. Deasy.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ile-motorcycle

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by budlight View Post
    This is why everyone in Michigan who carries should get a CPL...
    At least until such time as the law is changed. Hopefully before I die.
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    Is a horse a vehicle?

    (Insert stick poking emoticon here)

    This has been argued to death in the past with no final resolution.

    Most experts agree that you should not open carry on a bicycle or motorcycle unless you have a cpl.

    I agree with the above statement but feel that the wording of the law does not prohibit such activity because the pistol is not IN THE VEHICLE.

    Others have argued that a court case involving a felon that concealed a pistol in the space under the gas tank and above the engine of a motorcycle was found guilty of possessing the concealed pistol within the area of the motorcycle and this means that open carry on a motorcycle would be prohibited.

    In the end, the gamble is too risky. If found guilty it is a 5 year felony. So far Nobody wants to roll the dice on that. The best advice is to only open carry on a motorcycle or bicycle if you have a cpl.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 22Luke36 View Post
    If people are unwilling to ride a bike and go to court for a fight, all this talk about mounting up and earning our freedom someday if someone else starts it for us must be, fantasy?
    Well lead the way. Get on a bike and come ride down. Take lots of photos and be the "test case".

    Otherwise more internet bravado.

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 22Luke36 View Post
    If people are unwilling to ride a bike and go to court for a fight, all this talk about mounting up and earning our freedom someday if someone else starts it for us must be, fantasy?
    Who ever wants to try this, needs deep pockets. Remember, we're not talking about a slap on the wrist. You're going to need funding to take it all the way, if necessary. Otherwise, someone might get stuck with a felony record.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Small_Arms_Collector View Post
    Thought this might help:

    MC: 257.79

    MICHIGAN VEHICLE CODE (EXCERPT)
    Act 300 of 1949


    257.79 “Vehicle” defined.
    Sec. 79.

    “Vehicle” means every device in, upon, or by which any person or property is or may be transported or drawn upon a highway, except devices exclusively moved by human power or used exclusively upon stationary rails or tracks and except, only for the purpose of titling and registration under this act, a mobile home as defined in section 2 of the mobile home commission act, Act No. 96 of the Public Acts of 1987, being section 125.2302 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.


    History: 1949, Act 300, Eff. Sept. 23, 1949 ;-- Am. 1976, Act 439, Imd. Eff. Jan. 13, 1977 ;-- Am. 1978, Act 568, Eff. Jan. 6, 1979 ;-- Am. 1992, Act 134, Eff. Oct. 1, 1992
    One thing I have not seen anyone comment on is the fact that a bicycle (as long as it has no motor) is "exclusively moved by human power"
    Does that exclude it from the definition of a vehicle?

  22. #22
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyNinDaCleM View Post
    One thing I have not seen anyone comment on is the fact that a bicycle (as long as it has no motor) is "exclusively moved by human power"
    Does that exclude it from the definition of a vehicle?
    I would think so but, I'm not a lawyer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Gay Al View Post
    I would think so but, I'm not a lawyer.
    I get it! There is no safe assumption with firearms laws

    I would be willing to try it out, once I get my CPL , of course. Just to see if they can stop me solely for the OC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon View Post
    ON side note Galco shoulder rig for bicycle XDM .40 with spare mags.... tends to stay put and not flop around when properly used....
    I am in Washington State and we have similar laws. If you get in/on a vehicle, you are considered "concealed". Unlicensed(free) Open Carriers are required to unload before entering a vehicle. I find this excessive and unnecessary handling of the weapon an invitation to disaster. We are attempting to change this. That said, I open carry ALL the time and I have the required "permission" slip. In the car, on the motorcycle, on the bicycle, in the kayaks, all the time. I am using a fobus holster for my CZ EDC and have not had any difficulty carrying or drawing my weapon. Yes, I did practice from a moving motorcycle and bicycle, it works.

    Quote Originally Posted by RyNinDaCleM View Post
    I get it! There is no safe assumption with firearms laws
    .
    I find it is not the actual law, but the human interpretation of it. Two LEOs will look at it two ways. It is a roll of the dice,mate. Those few "bad apples" look like all the rest and may "interpret" the law as they see fit.


    I have one of these VV
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

  25. #25
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 22Luke36 View Post
    I honestly find a genuine and almost complete sense of satisfaction when someone has an ND because of such a law. My only hope is that some innocent is injured but not killed as a result of laws they probably supported.
    The problem with that, those in "charge" will blame the person handling the weapon, and not the circumstances that caused the ND.
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