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Thread: New Mexico’s immigrant ruling to bolster gun rights cases, Jackson v. Eden

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    New Mexico’s immigrant ruling to bolster gun rights cases, Jackson v. Eden

    A federal judge ruled Monday that legal immigrants have the same right to concealed-carry permits as American citizens, in a New Mexico case that gun rights advocates said strengthens their argument that the Second Amendment is a fundamental personal right.

    District Judge M. Christina Armijo said there is no evidence that green card holders, or legal permanent residents, pose a greater danger when carrying concealed firearms than do American citizens, and she ruled it was a violation of the Constitution’s Equal Protection Clause to deny them that right.

    The case stemmed from a challenge by John W. Jackson, an Australian who immigrated to the U.S. and lives in New Mexico, who sued along with the Second Amendment Foundation.

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...er-gun-rights/

    SAF WINS PERMANENT INJUNCTION AGAINST NEW MEXICO’S CITIZEN-ONLY CCW LAW

    http://saf.org/?p=3424
    Last edited by Nightmare; 04-01-2014 at 05:06 AM.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    While this is a victory, it could backfire. The state could easily vote away everybody's privilege to conceal carry. And sooner or later when their are enough votes to support it they will.

    SAF, NRA, and others should be fighting for rights, not privileges!
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    While this is a victory, it could backfire. The state could easily vote away everybody's privilege to conceal carry. And sooner or later when their are enough votes to support it they will.

    SAF, NRA, and others should be fighting for rights, not privileges!
    So you are saying that Legal Immigrants have no rights to protect themselves
    A gun Owner Is A Citizen
    Anyone Else is a Subject

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RogueAussie View Post
    So you are saying that Legal Immigrants have no rights to protect themselves
    NO I did not say that. I am saying that a privilege is not a right, and can be taken away when the legislature feels like it. They will just take it away from everybody instead of just the immigrants. SAF should have been fighting for the right of EVERYBODY to carry unlicensed using the immigrants as an example. But there is no money in that.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    NO I did not say that. I am saying that a privilege is not a right, and can be taken away when the legislature feels like it. They will just take it away from everybody instead of just the immigrants. SAF should have been fighting for the right of EVERYBODY to carry unlicensed using the immigrants as an example. But there is no money in that.
    But, you almost could've said that.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    But, you almost could've said that.
    I agree with WW ... its a right dang it. Irrelevant as to citizenship and other factors.

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    Including illegal aliens? Should they be allowed to apply for permits? They have a right to self defense too..
    Last edited by xd shooter; 04-02-2014 at 11:47 PM.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xd shooter View Post
    Including illegal aliens? Should they be allowed to apply for permits? They have a right to self defense too..
    I believe the ruling is for only legal aliens. But being illegal is a misdemeanor(I believe) so they are not exempt from owning a firearm, IMO. Everybody has the right to self defense. I doubt that any illegals would apply for a permit even if the ruling included them.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
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    Totally agree, I was replying to the post above mine. I should have clarified with a quote...

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    But being illegal is a misdemeanor(I believe) so they are not exempt from owning a firearm, IMO. Everybody has the right to self defense.
    Disagree on the first part, agree on the second- but through legal means, not illegal means.

    Two questions on the form 4473 indicate illegal aliens are not allowed to legally possess firearms:

    Are you a fugitive from justice?

    And specifically: Are you an alien illegally in the United States?

    Answering yes to any of the questions other than being the actual buyer disqualifies you from ownership.

    Along the same lines, if you are trying to engage in a private sale you are required to be residents of the same state. An illegal alien is not a legal state resident, hence the transfer would be illegal.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AH.74 View Post
    Disagree on the first part, agree on the second- but through legal means, not illegal means.

    Two questions on the form 4473 indicate illegal aliens are not allowed to legally possess firearms:

    Are you a fugitive from justice?

    And specifically: Are you an alien illegally in the United States?

    Answering yes to any of the questions other than being the actual buyer disqualifies you from ownership.

    Along the same lines, if you are trying to engage in a private sale you are required to be residents of the same state. An illegal alien is not a legal state resident, hence the transfer would be illegal.
    Illegal aliens can buy a firearm in many states without filling out a form 4473 legally. Please cite any federal or state statute that says they cannot possess firearms. Keep in mind the 4473 is not a statute, it is unlawful to lie on the form. I can privately buy a firearm to sell to another legally, but it is an infraction on a 4473.

    First offense is a misdemeanor, following offenses a felony.

    Title 8 section 1325

    (a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts
    Any alien who
    (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or
    (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or
    (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Illegal aliens can buy a firearm in many states without filling out a form 4473 legally. Please cite any federal or state statute that says they cannot possess firearms. Keep in mind the 4473 is not a statute, it is unlawful to lie on the form. I can privately buy a firearm to sell to another legally, but it is an infraction on a 4473.
    How can they buy one legally? They have no legal government ID to show they are a resident of any state. In which states that you know of can an illegal alien legally buy a firearm? I am genuinely curious, not looking to argue with you.

    If you know the person you are dealing with privately is an illegal alien, they are not a resident of your state. You could not legally privately sell to them. You can buy a gun to sell to others if it meets certain conditions- a gift for example. But according to the 4473 you are still the buyer. If the illegal alien lies to you and says they're legal, and you ask no other questions- the transaction is still improper and hence illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    First offense is a misdemeanor, following offenses a felony.

    Title 8 section 1325

    (a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts
    Any alien who
    (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or
    (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or
    (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
    The above refers to entry, not to firearms ownership. I'm not sure why you think that's relevant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Please cite any federal or state statute that says they cannot possess firearms.
    18 U.S.C. 922(g)(5)(B) generally makes it unlawful for any nonimmigrant alien to ship or transport in interstate or foreign com
    merce, or possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or
    ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

    -----------------------------

    Title 18 of the United States Code, e.g. 18 U.S.C. Section § 922(g)

    12. Aliens

    a. Legal Immigrant on a Visa (permanent resident with a green card) – May possess firearms and ammo; may purchase firearms from an FFL after establishing residency in a State, 27 C.F.R. §478.11, definition for "State of residence".

    b. Legal Non-Immigrant on a Visa -Prohibited from possessing a firearm or ammo, § 922(g)(5) 10 years, unless an exception or waiver exists under § 922 (y)(2)&(3); if a non-immigrant has an exception or waiver, he must establish residency in a State before purchasing a firearm from an FFL.

    c. Illegal Alien – may not possess a firearm or ammo affecting interstate commerce, § 922 (g)(5), 10 years.


    ---------------------------

    May 8, 2012

    Federal Court: Illegal Immigrants Don’t Have the Constitutional Right to Own Firearms

    (AP)- A federal appeals court says illegal immigrants don’t have a right to own firearms under the U.S. Constitution.

    Emmanuel Huitron-Guizar of Wyoming pleaded guilty to being an illegal immigrant in possession of firearms after his arrest last year. He was ordered held by immigration authorities at the Natrona County Detention Center in Wyoming.

    Federal Court: No Constitutional Right to Bear Arms for Illegal Immigrants

    An attorney for Huitron-Guizar appealed the case, saying illegal immigrants are not excluded from possessing firearms like felons and people who are mentally ill, and should have the same rights as U.S. citizens to buy a gun for hunting and protection.

    The 10th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals in Denver ruled Monday that illegal immigrants have only limited protection under the Constitution.

    Huitron-Guizar’s attorney, Ronald Pretty of Cheyenne, Wyo., says he plans to appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    As long as they don't affect interstate commerce, notice it does not infer as being in interstate commerce it is LEGAL. As far as the rest it only says what is legal, not illegal. Which any act that is not illegal is legal.

    A illegal alien can buy a long gun in NC without a PPP or ID, there is no requirement for that in a private sale. A ID is not required for private sales unless it is a handgun. A illegal alien can purchase a antique firearm as long as they are over the age of 18.

    BTW NON FFL handgun purchases interstate are illegal for everyone. The only purchases that are allowed not going through a FFL are INTRASTATE.

    YOU questioned the validity of a illegal alien being a misdemeanor. If you didn't think it mattered you should have kept your mouth shut.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 04-03-2014 at 11:58 AM.
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    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post

    YOU questioned the validity of a illegal alien being a misdemeanor. If you didn't think it mattered you should have kept your mouth shut.

    Is it not possible for you to have a civil, rational discussion? Must you always be rude and confrontational?

    I did not question that at all. I said it was irrelevant. And it is.

    What do you think of the 10th circuit ruling? Apparently they were rather clear in their language.

    And, you continue to ignore what I have said about proper private sales. You need to be a resident of the state- both people. Just because there is no requirement for ID, does not excuse that fact.
    Last edited by AH.74; 04-03-2014 at 12:34 PM.

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    Actually, WW is being very accommodating. He could've been far more rude and confrontational.....count yourself lucky.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Actually, WW is being very accommodating. He could've been far more rude and confrontational.....count yourself lucky.
    It does nothing for productive discussion. We're supposed to be here to help each other and talk about important issues which we can all learn from. Discouraging people from wanting to engage with you by being rude is not conducting ones' self as a mature adult, and is not in keeping with the spirit of this forum.

    WW is a somewhat recent visitor to this particular sub-forum, and in the years I've been here has been the only person I have ever had any issue with. Everyone else at least tries to conduct themselves with some decorum.

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    His angst is not that you are not knowledgeable on the facts, in general, it is that each state is different.

    His NC "requirements" are the hint he gave you. What are the residency requirements for your state. Specificity regarding residency is vitally important. For example, in Missouri, all I need is a phone bill (maybe given the move towards mobile phones and not land lines), water bill, electric bill, a utility bill if you will. No ID is required. There are duration requirements as well, as in 183 days "domiciled", which is a key legal term/duration, at least in Missouri.

    Look, a illegal alien may not be able to purchase and/or own a typical personal firearm, of any classification, depending on the state. In a different state, NC for example, he likely could.

    This topic has been discussed before.....many times, here on OCDO. Personally I don't care, they are illegals. The gun is not the issue I have and their human right to SD is not the point. They could use a knife or ball bat for all I care. But, firearms get special attention and illegals with a gun, that they may have gotten legally, doing illegal things with the gun, could directly impact my 2A. The court ruling is good. The court ruling does not apply illegal aliens. Now, will a state level cop enforce the federal law against illegals owning a gun, I don't know.

    Does a Mexican looking dude (legal resident/citizen), OCing, who has forgotten his ID at home, deserved get stopped for being a suspected illegal in possession of a gun, in AZ? Nope, not in a million years if the reason is looks and the OCed gun.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    A very good post, sir, and with some good points. I appreciate that.

    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    The court ruling is good. The court ruling does not apply illegal aliens.
    I'm not sure I understand this one part, though. Are you pointing to the fact that it says "immigrant" rather than "alien"? Because in that respect I believe the reference is to the exact same thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AH.74 View Post
    Disagree on the first part, agree on the second- but through legal means, not illegal means.
    Two questions on the form 4473 indicate illegal aliens are not allowed to legally possess firearms:
    Are you a fugitive from justice?
    And specifically: Are you an alien illegally in the United States?
    Answering yes to any of the questions other than being the actual buyer disqualifies you from ownership.
    Along the same lines, if you are trying to engage in a private sale you are required to be residents of the same state. An illegal alien is not a legal state resident, hence the transfer would be illegal.
    ok, AH, are you saying the gangs, Mexican mafia, Marielitos, etc., in the land of enchantment all purchased their firearms via legal means or the gringo seller ensured the buyer was a Nuevo Mexico resident? surely you do not truly buy that nonsense do you?

    WW has always and consistently pursues the concept of rights not government 'granted privilege(s)' which can revoked easily with the stroke of a pen.

    OCfourMe is correct, you have been treated civilly.

    and in your last post the two words are not equal in meaning.

    ipse

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    I said nothing about that. Try to make some sense and address what I actually said- don't make things up.

    Quote Originally Posted by wabbit View Post

    and in your last post the two words are not equal in meaning.

    ipse
    Ok, so tell us- what's the difference between an illegal alien and an illegal immigrant?

    If the court is referring to the same thing, the word difference is splitting hairs.
    Last edited by AH.74; 04-04-2014 at 11:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AH.74 View Post
    A very good post, sir, and with some good points. I appreciate that.

    I'm not sure I understand this one part, though. Are you pointing to the fact that it says "immigrant" rather than "alien"? Because in that respect I believe the reference is to the exact same thing.
    sorry musta missed your use of the word 'illegal' as this is post i was referring to.

    also, to clarify my post which left you confused apparently, your previous post(s) stated quote ...proper private sale...you need to be a resident of the state - both parties ...unquote yesterday 9:27.

    my comment reflected the legality of the gangs who have gotten firearms.

    and you talk about 'productive discussion' conerns and then you go get into a snit with me, not the first time actually, when you're challenged over your improper use of terms and then you change the tenor of the subject by throwing in that i didnt understand you meant to use the word illegal in your original post.

    on further note, those two terms are still not the same with illegal in front of them and splitting hairs is what gets some out of judicial binds or into them.

    thanks for a productive discussion ah, mucho gratis hombre

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    Quote Originally Posted by AH.74 View Post
    I said nothing about that. Try to make some sense and address what I actually said- don't make things up.



    Ok, so tell us- what's the difference between an illegal alien and an illegal immigrant?

    If the court is referring to the same thing, the word difference is splitting hairs.
    In my mind an "illegal alien" would be someone ILLEGALLY in the US. An "illegal immigrant" would be an individual ILLEGALLY in the US who INTENDS to be a permanent resident of the US. But, I think I'd be splitting hairs since BOTH ARE IN THE US IN VIOLATION OF CURRENT US LAW!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
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    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by wabbit View Post
    sorry musta missed your use of the word 'illegal' as this is post i was referring to.

    also, to clarify my post which left you confused apparently, your previous post(s) stated quote ...proper private sale...you need to be a resident of the state - both parties ...unquote yesterday 9:27.

    my comment reflected the legality of the gangs who have gotten firearms.

    and you talk about 'productive discussion' conerns and then you go get into a snit with me, not the first time actually, when you're challenged over your improper use of terms and then you change the tenor of the subject by throwing in that i didnt understand you meant to use the word illegal in your original post.

    on further note, those two terms are still not the same with illegal in front of them and splitting hairs is what gets some out of judicial binds or into them.

    thanks for a productive discussion ah, mucho gratis hombre
    I wasn't talking about legality of gangs. We were talking about aliens who would otherwise be legal to own and carry- like the person who is the subject of the original post. I am also very clear in my choice of terminology. Too bad you can't say the same.

    Try to keep up.

    You sent me a pm aimed only to provoke me. You are the one who has taken a snit with me, not the other way around. And this is another very immature post. If this to be the only manner of your contribution, the forum would be better off without you. In other words, if you're going to stick around- grow up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    In my mind an "illegal alien" would be someone ILLEGALLY in the US. An "illegal immigrant" would be an individual ILLEGALLY in the US who INTENDS to be a permanent resident of the US. But, I think I'd be splitting hairs since BOTH ARE IN THE US IN VIOLATION OF CURRENT US LAW!
    Thanks, Joe. That interpretation does make some sense. Appreciated.

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