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Thread: Neocons of the Fl Senate kill permitless carry during emergencies

  1. #1
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Neocons in Fl senate attempt to kill permitless carry during emergencies

    http://tbo.com/news/politics/nra-lob...bill-20140328/


    Man, I hate neocons. I haven't voted for one, ever. I take heat for not supporting the "lesser of two evils" but those same critics are often the same ones who act surprised when stuff like this happens. This would have been a good win on the march to general permitless carry. After a few hurricanes, with nothing bad happening, the argument for constitutional carry in "peace" time is a straightforward one.
    Last edited by 77zach; 04-01-2014 at 07:49 PM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  2. #2
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post

    That TBO article does not read like the bill has been "killed". The word they use is "stalled" and then go on to say, "The Senate bill, sponsored by state Sen. Jeff Brandes, R-St. Petersburg, is scheduled to get a third hearing before the Senate Military and Veterans Affairs, Space and Domestic Policy Committee on Tuesday." It could be that "the lesser of two evils" will pass this yet.
    You were right, it just passed. Only one neocon, Dean, voted no, with Democrat Abruzzo, voting yes. Dean is a notorious gun hater, who pretends to be a 2nd amendment advocate.

    https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bil...e%20Record.PDF
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Campaign Veteran StogieC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    You were right, it just passed. Only one neocon, Dean, voted no, with Democrat Abruzzo, voting yes. Dean is a notorious gun hater, who pretends to be a 2nd amendment advocate.

    https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bil...e%20Record.PDF
    and Sen. Abruzzo (D) has always been one of our best pro-gun democrats. He is also in favor of Open Carry and attempted to save the open carry bill in 2011 after former Sen. Bogdanoff (R) gutted the bill on the Senate floor.

  4. #4
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StogieC View Post
    and Sen. Abruzzo (D) has always been one of our best pro-gun democrats. He is also in favor of Open Carry and attempted to save the open carry bill in 2011 after former Sen. Bogdanoff (R) gutted the bill on the Senate floor.
    I remember watching that live, I thought it was heroic but some said he was just trying to embarrass the neocons (a worthy goal in itself). Now we know he's friendly. I emailed him to THANK him per Marion Hammer's email.

    abruzzo.joseph.web@flsenate.gov
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  5. #5
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Another neocon hurdle

    "Florida Urgent Action Needed Now! Sheriffs Trying to Gut Evacuation Bill


    DATE: April 7, 2014
    TO: USF & NRA Member and Friends
    FROM: Marion P. Hammer
    USF Executive Director
    NRA Past President

    Tomorrow, Tuesday, 4/8/2014, Senate Bill 296 by Senator Jeff Brandes will be heard in the Senate Community Affairs Committee at 3:00 pm.

    SB-296 Mandatory Evacuation is the Senate version of HB-209 that has been under constant attack by the Florida Sheriffs Association and continues to be under attack in the Senate.

    Amendments have been filed for the Florida Sheriffs Association to literally gut the bill and usurp your right to bears arms when you need them most.

    SB-296 Firearms/Mandatory Evacuations is a bill to allow law-abiding citizens to take their firearms with them when they are complying with a mandatory evacuation order under a declared state of emergency. This bill will keep law-abiding citizens from being arrested and having their firearms confiscated for taking their firearms with them when they evacuate.

    The Florida Sheriffs Association, while proclaiming their support for the Second Amendment, continues to actively OPPOSE this legislation and your right to bear arms.

    Watch the Florida Sheriffs Association tell a previous Committee that it is their opinion that you only have a "right" to own firearms and not a "right" to bear firearms.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qogTYo4mPuo

    THIS IS CRITICAL!!!! PLEASE ACT NOW!

    Please e-mail THESE committee members IMMEDIATELY and ask them to SUPPORT SB-296 with NO AMENDMENTS

    IN THE SUBJECT LINE PUT: SUPPORT SB-296 With NO AMENDMENTS

    (To send your message to all just Block and Copy All email addresses into the "Send To" box)

    simpson.wilton.web@flsenate.gov,
    thompson.geraldine.web@flsenate.gov,
    bradley.rob.web@flsenate.gov,
    hukill.dorothy.web@flsenate.gov,
    stargel.kelli.web@flsenate.gov,
    thrasher.john.web@flsenate.gov
    PLEASE E-MAIL THESE COMMITTEE MEMBERS IMMEDIATELY"

    Thrasher is on this committee, an anti gun Republican. He will turn on us if it suits him or if he feels he can get away with it. He was an important part of stopping campus carry in 2011 because a donor's daughter was killed with a rifle off campus near FSU.

    Here, neocon Jack Latvala is responsible for attempting to gut this bill.

    https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bil...ent/620494/PDF

    You may email the filth here:https://www.flsenate.gov/Senators/s20/?Tab=Personal

    Oh how sweet: Legislative Champion Award, Florida Sheriffs Association, 2013
    Last edited by 77zach; 04-07-2014 at 08:31 PM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  6. #6
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    The bill passed 8-1, and now moves onto the rules committee. However, the FSA and their cronies are still trying to amend the bill to weaken it. Thrasher said they're going to "work" on it. Both Fl carry and Marion Hammer did a good job of defending the bill.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Campaign Veteran StogieC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    The bill passed 8-1, and now moves onto the rules committee. However, the FSA and their cronies are still trying to amend the bill to weaken it. Thrasher said they're going to "work" on it. Both Fl carry and Marion Hammer did a good job of defending the bill.
    One of Sen. Thrasher's mistakes. The bill isn't assigned to the Rules Committee

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    Regular Member conandan's Avatar
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    I am a little confused on this. Is it illegal to have a firearm in a state of emergency or evacuation area.

    My understanding of the law was you did not need a cwfl to have a firearm in your vehicle as long as it met the securely encased requirement. So I'm not understanding the issue with this law. Or is this to allow you to carry concealed without a license for the purpose of evacuating an area.

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran StogieC's Avatar
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    this is to allow you to carry concealed without a license for the purpose of evacuating. For example. If you live in an apartment there is no way to bring a firearm from your appartment to your car unless you are on your way to go hunting, camping, fishing, shooting, or to a gun store or gunsmith. You can transport a handgun from your appartment to your car if you have a CWFL but not other firearms. Even with a CWFL you can't publicly possess any firearm during a locally declared emergency.

    Statutes 790.01, 790.053, 790.06, 790.25, and 870.044

  10. #10
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by conandan View Post
    I am a little confused on this. Is it illegal to have a firearm in a state of emergency or evacuation area.

    My understanding of the law was you did not need a cwfl to have a firearm in your vehicle as long as it met the securely encased requirement. So I'm not understanding the issue with this law. Or is this to allow you to carry concealed without a license for the purpose of evacuating an area.
    It gets rid of the permit requirement to carry concealed while evacuating during a declared state of emergency. I believe the intensity of the opposition stems from the fact that after a few emergencies with absolutely nothing bad happening, the case for permitless carry is obvious. Natural rights aren't respected enough to win the day alone, but when lawmakers see that the sky doesn't fall in extreme circumstances it certainly won't in normal circumstances. The officialdom of law enforcement just doesn't want any expansion of firearm freedom. People taking responsibility for their own safety is a threat to their privilege and position.

    https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bil...14s0296.ca.PDF
    Last edited by 77zach; 04-09-2014 at 09:41 PM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  11. #11
    Regular Member conandan's Avatar
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    Thank you gentleman for clearing that up for me. Now I understand.
    One more question. As the Florida sheriff's association is trying to stop this bill. Is there a list of the county sheriff's that are against this bill or are they anonymous.

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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by conandan View Post
    Thank you gentleman for clearing that up for me. Now I understand.
    One more question. As the Florida sheriff's association is trying to stop this bill. Is there a list of the county sheriff's that are against this bill or are they anonymous.
    It's anonymous, but it's safe to assume that all of the very urban jurisdictions' sheriffs are anti-rights. Rod Dawsery of Citrus county is a rabidly anti-gun bigot from New Jersey. Our sheriff in Marion County is probably anti-gun, based on past comments he made about federal gun laws.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Since per SCOTUS the 2nd amendment of the US Constitution is a FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT; just where does ANY State get the idea that it can regulate and restrict this right during an emergency? Isn't an emergency any situation that overwhelms the resources of the local and/or State government. An emergency is the time when one may MOST NEED the ability to DEFEND oneself and family!
    And this is the time when they want to further restrict YOUR FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS?
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
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    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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    Regular Member conandan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    It's anonymous, but it's safe to assume that all of the very urban jurisdictions' sheriffs are anti-rights. Rod Dawsery of Citrus county is a rabidly anti-gun bigot from New Jersey. Our sheriff in Marion County is probably anti-gun, based on past comments he made about federal gun laws.
    I thought it would be, can't have that information out it could hurt them at election time.

    I've wondered about our sheriff, I live in Marion County too. Haven't really paid much attention lately but I know a few of the deputies and they are pro 2 a as long as it's concealed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StogieC View Post
    this is to allow you to carry concealed without a license for the purpose of evacuating. For example. If you live in an apartment there is no way to bring a firearm from your appartment to your car unless you are on your way to go hunting, camping, fishing, shooting, or to a gun store or gunsmith. You can transport a handgun from your appartment to your car if you have a CWFL but not other firearms. Even with a CWFL you can't publicly possess any firearm during a locally declared emergency.

    Statutes 790.01, 790.053, 790.06, 790.25, and 870.044
    I know I'm new here but you're wrong.


    (5) POSSESSION IN PRIVATE CONVEYANCE.—Notwithstanding subsection (2), it is lawful and is not a violation of s. 790.01 for a person 18 years of age or older to possess a concealed firearm or other weapon for self-defense or other lawful purpose within the interior of a private conveyance, without a license, if the firearm or other weapon is securely encased or is otherwise not readily accessible for immediate use. Nothing herein contained prohibits the carrying of a legal firearm other than a handgun anywhere in a private conveyance when such firearm is being carried for a lawful use. Nothing herein contained shall be construed to authorize the carrying of a concealed firearm or other weapon on the person. This subsection shall be liberally construed in favor of the lawful use, ownership, and possession of firearms and other weapons, including lawful self-defense as provided in s. 776.012.
    (17) “Securely encased” means in a glove compartment, whether or not locked; snapped in a holster; in a gun case, whether or not locked; in a zippered gun case; or in a closed box or container which requires a lid or cover to be opened for access.
    From 870.044: Nothing contained in this chapter shall be construed to authorize the seizure, taking, or confiscation of firearms that are lawfully possessed, unless a person is engaged in a criminal act.
    Concealed firearms that are concealed on a person with a CWFL are lawfully possessed.
    Last edited by Adrich86; 04-13-2014 at 04:37 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran StogieC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrich86 View Post
    I know I'm new here but you're wrong.
    Ok. Thanks for clearing that up. The courts, the legislature, all of Florida Carry's lawyers, NRA's lawyers, and I are all wrong. Got it...
    Last edited by StogieC; 04-13-2014 at 04:14 PM.

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    Regular Member conandan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StogieC View Post
    Ok. Thanks for clearing that up. The courts, the legislature, all of Florida Carry's lawyers, NRA's lawyers, and I are all wrong. Got it...
    I am going to have to read through the laws again.. I was under the assumption that as long as your firearm was in cased you can transport from your home to your vehicle with out a cwfl. It was only if you were openly carrying that those exceptions needed to be meet.

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    Why am I not surprised.
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    Quote Originally Posted by conandan View Post
    I am going to have to read through the laws again.. I was under the assumption that as long as your firearm was in cased you can transport from your home to your vehicle with out a cwfl. It was only if you were openly carrying that those exceptions needed to be meet.
    Carrying a concealed firearm is illegal in Florida, unless you have a CWFL or are engaged in one of the provisions of 790.25(3): At or going to and from the range, hunting, fishing camping; at home/work; to/from gun shop; etc. it is lawful to carry any firearm concealed (without needing a CWFL) or openly.

    Simply going to/from you car (if the car is not on the property of your home) in the average course of life is not covered.

    Personally I think any reasonable judge would agree with me that if you can carry at work/home and in your car that it's ridiculous to prohibit getting the firearm form here to there.
    Last edited by notalawyer; 04-13-2014 at 09:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrich86 View Post
    I know I'm new here but you're wrong.

    Concealed firearms that are concealed on a person with a CWFL are lawfully possessed.
    I know I'm new here but you're wrong.
    No, he's exactly right.


    Concealed firearms that are concealed on a person with a CWFL are lawfully possessed.
    What does that have to do with what Stoogie said or what you quoted?


    From 870.044: Nothing contained in this chapter shall be construed to authorize the seizure, taking, or confiscation of firearms that are lawfully possessed, unless a person is engaged in a criminal act.
    You skipped this:
    the following acts shall be prohibited during the period of said emergency throughout the jurisdiction:
    . . .
    (3) The intentional possession in a public place of a firearm by any person, except a duly authorized law enforcement official or person in military service acting in the official performance of her or his duty.
    I don't see any exceptions for CWFL holders, do you?
    Last edited by notalawyer; 04-13-2014 at 09:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    No, he's exactly right.


    What does that have to do with what Stoogie said or what you quoted?


    You skipped this:
    I don't see any exceptions for CWFL holders, do you?
    This is the exception
    Nothing contained in this chapter shall be construed to authorize the seizure, taking, or confiscation of firearms that are lawfully possessed, unless a person is engaged in a criminal act.
    If a CWFL holder has concealed firearm or weapon on him is it unlawfully or lawfully possessed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    Carrying a concealed firearm is illegal in Florida, unless you have a CWFL or are engaged in one of the provisions of 790.25(3): At or going to and from the range, hunting, fishing camping; at home/work; to/from gun shop; etc. it is lawful to carry any firearm concealed (without needing a CWFL) or openly.

    Simply going to/from you car (if the car is not on the property of your home) in the average course of life is not covered.

    Personally I think any reasonable judge would agree with me that if you can carry at work/home and in your car that it's ridiculous to prohibit getting the firearm form here to there.
    Obviously its against the law for a non CWFL holder to carry a concealed firearm around town. It is legal to just keep it in your car as long as its securely encased. There's no prerequisite to go to the range or hunting ect. If you guys are going to say its illegal to go from the inside of an apartment to your car with a securely encased firearm then wouldn't be illegal to do so on any property you are renting?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrich86 View Post
    Obviously its against the law for a non CWFL holder to carry a concealed firearm around town. It is legal to just keep it in your car as long as its securely encased. There's no prerequisite to go to the range or hunting ect. If you guys are going to say its illegal to go from the inside of an apartment to your car with a securely encased firearm then wouldn't be illegal to do so on any property you are renting?
    Florida courts have ruled that one's home (as mentioned in the statute) is the place you live and the curtilage thereof. Ownership is not the issue. They also ruled that temporary 'homes' include hotel rooms or other temporary dwelling. But not the common areas like hallways and parking lots, breezeways, etc. So inside your apartment os OK as is inside your car. But not on your way from your apartment (in what we consider normal apartment buildings) to your car.

    If you rent a house, well then the property (front yard, driveway, etc.) is included in the lease.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrich86 View Post
    This is the exception

    If a CWFL holder has concealed firearm or weapon on him is it unlawfully or lawfully possessed?
    The part I highlighted says it's illegal if it is in a public place during a declared local emergency, period. So it's not lawfully carried and so the can take it. But then again, since you are already violating the law, they can arrest you and take it too.

    Your CWFL does not supersede this, or any other law unless specifically stated.



    This is the exception
    No! That is nothing more than some feel-good, do-nothing words that the legislature put in after Katrina to make it appear that they are doing something for Floridians.
    Last edited by notalawyer; 04-13-2014 at 10:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    The part I highlighted says it's illegal if it is in a public place during a declared local emergency, period. So it's not lawfully carried and so the can take it. But then again, since you are already violating the law, they can arrest you and take it too.

    Your CWFL does not supersede this, or any other law unless specifically stated.



    No! That is nothing more than some feel-good, do-nothing words that the legislature put in after Katrina to make it appear that they are doing something for Floridians.
    In reality thats all hb 209 is. Assuming you are correct about valid cwfl holders not being able to carry in a state of emergency. As it reads hb 209 only lets you carry a concealed firearm while evacuating not if you happen to get stuck within the jurisdiction where the state of emergency has been declared. The way it is now you can take your guns with you in your car if they're securely encased.

    I'm not gonna fight against the bill, because obviously anything pro gun is a step in the right direction.

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