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Today I Was Turned Into a Criminal By My Government

Tawnos

Regular Member
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Jun 4, 2008
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Washington
So the government creates the moral hazard and the answer is more government force?

I take a more utilitarian approach than you (and yes, I recall you ranting about Bentham, but nothing of substance). A moral hazard already exists in that we aren't willing to watch people die on the street, yet before emergency care couldn't reject people that very thing would happen because there wasn't enough voluntary charity to cover or prevent it. Seeing that such a hazard existed, I weigh the cost and benefit of different systems and arrive at the conclusion that it can be appropriate to use what you would term coercive measures.

Life's about trade-offs, and behaving in an absolutist fashion in the face of such realities doesn't strike me as seeking freedom. It strikes me as obstinacy.
 

davidmcbeth

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Jan 14, 2012
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earth's crust
I weigh the cost and benefit of different systems and arrive at the conclusion that it can be appropriate to use what you would term coercive measures.

Well, that cannot be true ... you could not have read the obamalama bill prior to its passage.

And its not a hazard. Healthcare is a right? Well, no, its not .. otherwise the pres would have the same as you and me.
 

Tawnos

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Washington
Well, that cannot be true ... you could not have read the obamalama bill prior to its passage.

And its not a hazard. Healthcare is a right? Well, no, its not .. otherwise the pres would have the same as you and me.

By your logic, free speech is not a right, because some can afford to distribute their speech further than you and me.

As for the ACA, I don't think it was the best means to address healthcare, but it's better than what came before.

Edit: regardless, your "that cannot be true" makes a straw man of my position by trying to tie it to the ACA, rather than the broader view of healthcare it addresses.
 
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OC for ME

Regular Member
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Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
By your logic, free speech is not a right, because some can afford to distribute their speech further than you and me.
The Interwebz extends everyone's 1A right to "speak." Funny thing is that liberals rarely recognize the fact that no one has a right to be heard.

As for the ACA, I don't think it was the best means to address healthcare, but it's better than what came before.

Edit: regardless, your "that cannot be true" makes a straw man of my position by trying to tie it to the ACA, rather than the broader view of healthcare it addresses.
The ACA is healthcare.....there is no "broader view."
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
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Dec 13, 2008
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Whatcom County
I take a more utilitarian approach than you (and yes, I recall you ranting about Bentham, but nothing of substance). A moral hazard already exists in that we aren't willing to watch people die on the street, yet before emergency care couldn't reject people that very thing would happen because there wasn't enough voluntary charity to cover or prevent it. Seeing that such a hazard existed, I weigh the cost and benefit of different systems and arrive at the conclusion that it can be appropriate to use what you would term coercive measures.

Life's about trade-offs, and behaving in an absolutist fashion in the face of such realities doesn't strike me as seeking freedom. It strikes me as obstinacy.

Bentham has nothing to do with it. Other than he put the state above individuals.

Your comment has nothing to do with moral hazard, and conflating we with the government or society with the government is wrong, you are also conflating personal values with the term moral hazard. Of course we aren't willing to watch people die on the street ( something that isn't happening anyway and is a strawman argument). It also avoids what I am alluding to with a subtle attack that if you are against this new state force and conscription you must want people to die, silly.

The problems you are so worried about was exasperated and in many instances created by the state. Going way back before the turn of the century (the previous century) and continuing on with mercantilist lobbying of doctors (Flexner report) the licensing scheme by the state and the universities, the price fixing, basically the involvement of government in free market medicine. At one time many more people had health care, through private lodges and charity, there was plenty of money for it.

So like I stated government used force to make the problems and then people want governemnt to use more force to solve it, which historically has never worked and has always caused more problems and more cries for more force.

Ultimately even if what you say is true, it is immoral to steal from one to give to another, and it is an absurdity to claim it is moral to do so.
 
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Tawnos

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Washington
something that isn't happening anyway and is a strawman argument)
You know why that doesn't happen in the status quo? Government force. It's been used to provide an avenue that private charity can't cover. Reagan's 1986 COBRA package came about because hospitals were routinely turning away or transferring people who did not have the ability to pay, oft-times leading to their deaths. You point to something that isn't happening because of government force as a reason that force shouldn't exist.

So like I stated government used force to make the problems and then people want governemnt to use more force to solve it, which historically has never worked and has always caused more problems and more cries for more force.
I'm sure you have a cite for that? Most people I've talked to in countries with a public option paid by the threat of force are satisfied with their system. Much more so than the US. And, as a whole, they spend less than we do on healthcare. So how has it "never" worked and "always" caused more problems?

Ultimately even if what you say is true, it is immoral to steal from one to give to another, and it is an absurdity to claim it is moral to do so.
Morals are not absolute. They are conditional evaluations of a presented situation. For example, one might say it's wrong/immoral to kill someone, but that generalized statement is only true in certain circumstances, and it treats all killing as being equal when they clearly are not (self-defense, for example).
 

Tawnos

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
2,542
Location
Washington
The Interwebz extends everyone's 1A right to "speak." Funny thing is that liberals rarely recognize the fact that no one has a right to be heard.
I'm sure you have a point you were going to get to but forgot about in your haste to throw out your favorite perceived slur. davidmcbeth claimed that if something was a right, everyone would be able to exercise that right in equal proportion (by claiming that the president's healthcare would be equivalent to everyone else's). That's easily shown to be false, just by comparing it to other rights. Whether or not healthcare is or is not a right is independent of his claim, which I was addressing.

The ACA is healthcare.....there is no "broader view."
No, the ACA a particular answer to the question of "how should healthcare be treated in the US?" If you were following the discussion, I stated that I weigh the cost and benefits of various systems to arrive at my viewpoints. This was challenged as being impossible because of the presumption that I couldn't weigh the pros and cons of an idea without linking it to a particular implementation of the idea. I'm weighing the broader view of "how do we properly address healthcare in this country?" My thought is that a state compact model comparing systems like Obama/Romneycare, single payer option, etc would be the appropriate means to address it within this country, as it seemed the most constitutional way to address healthcare. Given that a tax to fund the public support needed to pay for indigent patients was found constitutional, I think we should seek a more complete public system using those tax dollars rather than using public policy to mandate private purchases.
 

georg jetson

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
2,416
Location
Slidell, Louisiana
SNIP


Morals are not absolute. They are conditional evaluations of a presented situation. For example, one might say it's wrong/immoral to kill someone, but that generalized statement is only true in certain circumstances, and it treats all killing as being equal when they clearly are not (self-defense, for example).

No no no... Morals can be absolute. Your example of "killing" is a red herring. The proper term is murder and it is NEVER moral.

It is NEVER moral to steal(take by force) from one to give to another.
 

Primus

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2013
Messages
3,939
Location
United States
No no no... Morals can be absolute. Your example of "killing" is a red herring. The proper term is murder and it is NEVER moral.

It is NEVER moral to steal(take by force) from one to give to another.

Even if your stealing an item from a wealthy person who doesn't need it to give to child to save their life? Would it still be imoral?

Society defines morality. Each society is different..therefore morality is NOT absolute.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
 

georg jetson

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
2,416
Location
Slidell, Louisiana
Even if your stealing an item from a wealthy person who doesn't need it to give to child to save their life? Would it still be imoral?

Society defines morality. Each society is different..therefore morality is NOT absolute.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

Yep. Feed the child yourself.

Your logic about morality is in error. What is moral defines morality. Some societies get closer to it than others.
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
Even if your stealing an item from a wealthy person who doesn't need it to give to child to save their life? Would it still be imoral?

Society defines morality. Each society is different..therefore morality is NOT absolute.

Absolute moral relativism is lazy and ignores a few moral tenets which appear to be constant across societies.

My own view is that morality is NOT relative – in fact is biological – but that morality is a far more limited concept that those who use the word to describe non-aggressive actions (such as the consumption of intoxicants) would care to admit.

That is to say, morality is not relative, but that doesn't stop crusaders from applying the "immoral" label to things which are neither moral nor immoral in order to cast a veneer or legitimacy on their own aggressions.
 
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sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
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16,674
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Whatcom County
You know why that doesn't happen in the status quo? Government force. It's been used to provide an avenue that private charity can't cover. Reagan's 1986 COBRA package came about because hospitals were routinely turning away or transferring people who did not have the ability to pay, oft-times leading to their deaths. You point to something that isn't happening because of government force as a reason that force shouldn't exist.


I'm sure you have a cite for that? Most people I've talked to in countries with a public option paid by the threat of force are satisfied with their system. Much more so than the US. And, as a whole, they spend less than we do on healthcare. So how has it "never" worked and "always" caused more problems?


Morals are not absolute. They are conditional evaluations of a presented situation. For example, one might say it's wrong/immoral to kill someone, but that generalized statement is only true in certain circumstances, and it treats all killing as being equal when they clearly are not (self-defense, for example).

So other countries condone force. So what? Other countries are happy being subjects to a dictator if you ask them.

Your Reagan thing doesn't do a thing to refute what I was saying actually helps prove it. Look up the history this country did to destroy healthcare, its silly to say the government is the solution to the problems they caused.

So theft is moral if a group of people decide to steal?
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
Absolute moral relativism is lazy and ignores a few moral tenets which appear to be constant across societies.

My own view is that morality is NOT relative – in fact is biological – but that morality is a far more limited concept that those who use the word to describe non-aggressive actions (such as the consumption of intoxicants) would care to admit.

That is to say, morality is not relative, but that doesn't stop crusaders from applying the "immoral" label to things which are neither moral nor immoral in order to cast a veneer or legitimacy on their own aggressions.

+1
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
Even if your stealing an item from a wealthy person who doesn't need it to give to child to save their life? Would it still be imoral?

Society defines morality. Each society is different..therefore morality is NOT absolute.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

If it isn't stealing why don't you Tawnos and EMN go personally steal it instead of hiring gov. thugs to do it for you?
 
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Primus

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Oct 24, 2013
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United States
If it isn't stealing why don't you Tawnos and EMN go personally steal it instead of hiring gov. thugs to do it for you?

Because no "thugs" steal it. If you CHOOSE to work at x place, and you CHOOSE to claim said work, then you get a percentage taken. Said percentage is taken either directly from your pay check or at the end of the year a piece of paper then gets sent to you. If you CHOOSE not to pay it, eventually MAYBE you'll get more letters saying "pay us" blah blah blah... etc. Etc. Etc.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
 

Gallowmere

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Feb 23, 2014
Messages
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Location
Richmond, VA
Because no "thugs" steal it. If you CHOOSE to work at x place, and you CHOOSE to claim said work, then you get a percentage taken. Said percentage is taken either directly from your pay check or at the end of the year a piece of paper then gets sent to you. If you CHOOSE not to pay it, eventually MAYBE you'll get more letters saying "pay us" blah blah blah... etc. Etc. Etc.

Ahahahaha...what? Yeah, let's ask some people who forgot to file, or didn't know they needed to file, or avoided paying taxes for a few years, how it worked out for them. I assure you, there were eventually guns, and threat of force aimed at them. Just because henchmen wear uniforms, doesn't mean that they aren't thugs.
 

sudden valley gunner

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Dec 13, 2008
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Whatcom County
Because no "thugs" steal it. If you CHOOSE to work at x place, and you CHOOSE to claim said work, then you get a percentage taken. Said percentage is taken either directly from your pay check or at the end of the year a piece of paper then gets sent to you. If you CHOOSE not to pay it, eventually MAYBE you'll get more letters saying "pay us" blah blah blah... etc. Etc. Etc.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

Hahahaha and who makes them take the percentage out? How about we repeal that wartime act and see how many people really volunteer to pay?

If a Mafia boss makes the Manager take out extortion on every employer, it must not be him doing it then?
 

Gallowmere

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Feb 23, 2014
Messages
210
Location
Richmond, VA
Hahahaha and who makes them take the percentage out? How about we repeal that wartime act and see how many people really volunteer to pay?

If a Mafia boss makes the Manager take out extortion on every employer, it must not be him doing it then?

Considering that there's already a way for people to voluntarily give more money to the Federal Government, and if I recall correctly, it rarely pulls in much of a damned thing, we can safely say that the answer to number one is "lol".
 

Primus

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Oct 24, 2013
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Ahahahaha...what? Yeah, let's ask some people who forgot to file, or didn't know they needed to file, or avoided paying taxes for a few years, how it worked out for them. I assure you, there were eventually guns, and threat of force aimed at them. Just because henchmen wear uniforms, doesn't mean that they aren't thugs.

Well you can ask me. I had a mistake on my taxes. Ended up owing 3,000 approx. Got a letter. Called said "hey can't pay that hole.thing" . Worked out a payment plan and it was paid back. My next return they took it from what was coming back to me.

Amazing no threats.. no guns.... no costumed agents.... oh and the tax return was from like 3 years prior before I got the bill.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
 

georg jetson

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Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
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Slidell, Louisiana
Well you can ask me. I had a mistake on my taxes. Ended up owing 3,000 approx. Got a letter. Called said "hey can't pay that hole.thing" . Worked out a payment plan and it was paid back. My next return they took it from what was coming back to me.

Amazing no threats.. no guns.... no costumed agents.... oh and the tax return was from like 3 years prior before I got the bill.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

Try this line the next time.

"I'm not paying you anymore." Perhaps they'll show you their Glock and M4 collection.
 
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