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Can a police officer lawfully order someone to enter their home if they are outside?

Freedom1Man

Freedom1Man

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509rifas said:
Looks like its time to do some case law research on what a "lawful order" is.
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http://law.justia.com/cases/washington/supreme-court/1980/46078-1.html

The term "lawful order" in the Seattle criminal trespass ordinance is not sufficiently specific to inform persons of reasonable understanding of what conduct is proscribed. Many questions must be answered to determine if an order is a "lawful order." Who is an authorized person? Was the *732 substance of the order lawful? Was there a valid reason for the order? How long is the order to be in effect? The foregoing is but a sample of what must be considered and certainly there are many more questions which could be raised. A person receiving an order must thereupon be able to answer all such questions to know if he has received a "lawful order."

In accordance with the second consideration underlying the vagueness doctrine, a statute or ordinance must be sufficiently specific to ensure that it will not be enforced arbitrarily. A vague statute or ordinance invites unequal enforcement, and gives unfettered discretion to the police and to the courts. Grayned v. Rockford, 408 U.S. 104, 33 L.Ed.2d 222, 92 S.Ct. 2294 (1972). By defining the offense of criminal trespass in terms of obedience to a "lawful" order, the Seattle ordinance creates the possibility of arbitrary enforcement. As we stated in Bellevue v. Miller, 85 Wn.2d 539, 545, 536 P.2d 603 (1975):
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Even the courts are not sure it would seem.
 
Freedom1Man

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DocWalker said:
I agree but it doesn't stop bad cops from shooting you for not bowing to the master, just look at all the isolated incidents that happen everyday.
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This line belong in the slavery discussion....

Wow, if that is not telling about how the minds of police are seen by the general public, I don't know what is then.
 
Primus

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Freedom1Man said:
This line belong in the slavery discussion....

Wow, if that is not telling about how the minds of police are seen by the general public, I don't know what is then.
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Since when was he anointed the "general public"? No offense meant to him in the slightest.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
 
user

user

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Not much help in Washington, but in Virginia, after a fairly exhaustive search, I can find absolutely no authority for LEO's to issue orders at all, except pursuant to specific statutes (e.g., commanding a motorist to stop, ordering a trespasser off of property, etc.), or pursuant to an order issued by a court of competent jurisdiction - and in the latter case, it's really the court's order that has to be a "lawful order" as the cop is just communicating the court's order. The one thing I can think of that isn't covered specifically is obstruction of justice. If a cop orders people to stop interfering with an arrest, for example, those people could be charged with obstruction, but not with "refusal to obey".
 
S

sirpuma

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Freedom1Man said:
This line belong in the slavery discussion....

Wow, if that is not telling about how the minds of police are seen by the general public, I don't know what is then.
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Let's see, I have had two LEO encounters in WA in the past 14 years. The first involved trespassers. Most of the cops didn't care that I was armed but one gave me guff. The second incident my wife and I tried to report a crazy driver who was acting threatening. The cops arrived and I was threatened with murder in front of my wife, disarmed, handcuffed and detained, all because I refused to give up my rights while trying to report a crazy driver. Do you really think I'll ever trust a cop again? Cop said he was called out on a DV. Only thing that could have been a DV was half a block away and only loosely related to our crazy driver. I've seen a LOT of videos and it seems to me many, if not most, cops have an attitude of "Obey Me NOW or DIE". It's rare to see video of cops who respect citizens rights these days. They are trained to be militarized authoritarians. So many criminal laws have exceptions for cops that they can do just about anything and get away with it. And when they do have a clear violation of law, it is extremely rare for one to be punished with trial and jail time. Heck they don't even get fired.
 
sudden valley gunner

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Can't be Sirpuma, you mean another isolated incident?

The personal experiences from the small subset of this forum shows there is something wrong with the barrel.
 
MSG Laigaie

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sudden valley gunner said:
Can't be Sirpuma, you mean another isolated incident?

The personal experiences from the small subset of this forum shows there is something wrong with the barrel.
Click to expand...

Everywhere you go, in each little group, be it LEO, Military, or all those alphabet groups, you will have this problem. Even in the corporate world you will find this type of person. Empowering them are the timid majority, and fighting them are "the rest" of us, still a minority, but growing.

Not to skew the numbers, I, too, have been harassed, physically and verbally, by LEOs that continue to be bullies on the Peoples dime.
 
DocWalker

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user said:
Not much help in Washington, but in Virginia, after a fairly exhaustive search, I can find absolutely no authority for LEO's to issue orders at all, except pursuant to specific statutes (e.g., commanding a motorist to stop, ordering a trespasser off of property, etc.), or pursuant to an order issued by a court of competent jurisdiction - and in the latter case, it's really the court's order that has to be a "lawful order" as the cop is just communicating the court's order. The one thing I can think of that isn't covered specifically is obstruction of justice. If a cop orders people to stop interfering with an arrest, for example, those people could be charged with obstruction, but not with "refusal to obey".
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Thank you User for your thoughts on this, it does appear that "obstruction" has become the catch all offense if you piss off a bad cop.

Followed by "stop resisting....stop resissting.... and then don't grab at my gun.....BAM
 
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Freedom1Man

Freedom1Man

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DocWalker said:
Thank you User for your thoughts on this, it does appear that "obstruction" has become the catch all offense if you piss off a bad cop.

Followed by "stop resisting....stop resissting.... and then don't grab at my gun.....BAM
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I was charged with obstructing an officer for walking down the road while OC (no, I did not have the AR15 on that day). They stopped me and wanted to know who I was. I told them to show me the law that requires me to answer that question.
I asked for their PC and RAS. I told them who I was and where I was going was none of their business.

I was cuffed and stuffed then a couple months later I got notice that I was being charged with obstructing for not IDing myself.
 
sudden valley gunner

sudden valley gunner

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MSG Laigaie said:
Everywhere you go, in each little group, be it LEO, Military, or all those alphabet groups, you will have this problem. Even in the corporate world you will find this type of person. Empowering them are the timid majority, and fighting them are "the rest" of us, still a minority, but growing.

Not to skew the numbers, I, too, have been harassed, physically and verbally, by LEOs that continue to be bullies on the Peoples dime.
Click to expand...

+1 More and more are opening their eyes.

One of those harassers has been up to his usual tactics pulling guns on unarmed people.
 
OlGutshotWilly

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Grim_Night said:
I for example and doing nothing more then standing outside at the corner of one of the apartment buildings. An officer tells me to go back inside my apartment. I ask if it is required by law and the officer responds that no it is not, [clipped]

Is it a lawful order from the LEOs to go back inside my apartment?
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Grim,
I am trying to understand why you posted this thread, when in fact, by your own statement, the Officer answered your question fully. You respectfully asked him if it was required by law that you follow his order, and he replied "no, it is not".

That would seem to be the answer to this question.

Have I misunderstood you, or the question?

Cheers.
 
Grim_Night

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OlGutshotWilly said:
Grim,
I am trying to understand why you posted this thread, when in fact, by your own statement, the Officer answered your question fully. You respectfully asked him if it was required by law that you follow his order, and he replied "no, it is not".

That would seem to be the answer to this question.

Have I misunderstood you, or the question?

Cheers.
Click to expand...

Lets just say that due to events on the evening of April 1st 2014, I have a court date for April 15th 2014 at 10:30 am. I am withholding details until after the my hearing.
 
Fallschirjmäger

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"Officer, lemme get this right... You want me to go back inside my house, where there are knives, guns, grenades, flammable liquids and who knows what; where I can see you but you can't see me? Where I could be doing anything but you'd have no idea until you were bleeding out on the pavement? Sure, I'm all over that. See ya."
 
C

countryclubjoe

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nj
Grim_Night said:
As the title says. If a person is outside the confines of their home and police are outside, can they lawfully order that person to enter their home?

Say if LEOs are searching an apartment complex for a criminal that is fleeing capture and I am standing outside next to the apartment building, and the LEOs ordered me to leave and go inside my apartment.
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The LEO request is not a legal order that needs to be followed. Common sense needs to be applied..

1- Clearly you did not fit the description of the criminal...
2- The Leo did not know if you lived in that apartment complex.
3- The Leo could have said, go across the street to the bar and have a drink while we search this complex for a suspect.
4- The suspect could be inside your apartment...

The query would be simpler to answer if more details were presented.

My .02

CCJ
 
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