• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Can a police officer lawfully order someone to enter their home if they are outside?

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
In other threads the topic of police commands were discussed. Mainly existing your vehicle when commanded by a LEO, I contend that sitting in your vehicle with your hands placed on the steering wheel and the vehicle is not running, in plain site of the leo is a lawful act and does not put the officers safety at risk therefore you stay inside the vehicle for your own safety. Let the courts work out any obstruction issue the PD may file.

You're safety should be your main concern the same as the officer concern's-- Personal Safety..

My .02

CCJ
 

Zohan

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
Messages
34
Location
US Navy
Lets just say that due to events on the evening of April 1st 2014, I have a court date for April 15th 2014 at 10:30 am. I am withholding details until after the my hearing.

Given this and the other discussion threads you have started on this board, you seem to attract trouble for yourself.

In most cases when one finds them self standing in a pile of dog s**t, it is for no other reason than the fact that they stepped in it.

Your last thread indicated you wanted to study law...I didn't realize you meant that you wanted to go to the school of hard knocks.

Good luck in court on the 15th. Just like your other threads, I await the outcome to find out the conclusion to this latest drama series.

-Z
 

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
I was charged with obstructing an officer for walking down the road while OC (no, I did not have the AR15 on that day). They stopped me and wanted to know who I was. I told them to show me the law that requires me to answer that question.
I asked for their PC and RAS. I told them who I was and where I was going was none of their business.

I was cuffed and stuffed then a couple months later I got notice that I was being charged with obstructing for not IDing myself.

Hi F1M

I trust that you have the encounter on video along with a great Constitutional Law attorney to right this wrong?

Regards

CCJ
 

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
This attitude of personal safety trumping rights has led US to these dire straits. Remaining in ones vehicle allows the cop an extra-legal sniff and peek search without warrant. You must consider that it may soon hypothetically be preferable to be dead than "dead right."


The savvy citizen will have the camera rolling.. Remember you have done nothing wrong... You lock your doors and communicate via a small opening in the window.. You inform the kind officer that you simply would like to travel on your peaceful journey home, if the kind officer or officer's continue to detain you, then you simply request a supervisor and an Attorney... Do not act like a thug or a tough guy/gal, do not be threatening in any way, be a humble law abiding citizen that is articulate enough to understand his/her constitutional rights. At some point you will either be informed you could leave or the kind leo's will no longer be kind leo's.

The camera and the Constitution are a law abiding citizens best friend.

My .02

CCJ
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
Most of us on this board do not go out of our way to attract attention or problems, neither do we let the fear of a confrontation with a uninformed or misguided public servant dissuade us from going about our business as we see fit. It remains to be seen who "stepped in it" in this situation.

+1 Sometimes people have more hassles because they are more willing to vigilant about their rights.
 

Grim_Night

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2012
Messages
776
Location
Pierce County, Washington
Given this and the other discussion threads you have started on this board, you seem to attract trouble for yourself.

In most cases when one finds them self standing in a pile of dog s**t, it is for no other reason than the fact that they stepped in it.

Your last thread indicated you wanted to study law...I didn't realize you meant that you wanted to go to the school of hard knocks.

Good luck in court on the 15th. Just like your other threads, I await the outcome to find out the conclusion to this latest drama series.

-Z

Do I attract trouble by doing nothing more then being someplace that I am lawfully allowed to be and having an officer approach me and attempt to trample on my rights as a free American citizen? Do I attract trouble by simply exercising my rights while going about my normal daily business while following the law and the "rules" only to have someone in a position of authority at school that decides he doesn't like that I am exercising those rights?

On the 1st of April, I was already at the location (where I live) and the police showed up and hassled me. I didn't go find them. I don't make it a habit of seeking out trouble. I simply do what everybody else does in the normal course of a day. If I find myself accosted by bullies (even ones wearing uniforms) I don't run and hide.
 

Grim_Night

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2012
Messages
776
Location
Pierce County, Washington
Case dismissed at the request of the prosecution... at least for now (without prejudice). They seriously screwed up though. Somehow, they managed to add on a totally unrelated charge that was totally unrelated to me. My lawyer while hearing the prosecution read off why I was being charged flat out said that they had no probable cause and she was going to move for the case to be dismissed. The city of Lakewood is free to refile at a later date but they already stepped in it at this point. Everything in the police report actually backs up my statements regarding this matter. :banghead::cuss:
 

boyscout399

Regular Member
Joined
May 23, 2008
Messages
905
Location
Lyman, Maine
In other threads the topic of police commands were discussed. Mainly existing your vehicle when commanded by a LEO, I contend that sitting in your vehicle with your hands placed on the steering wheel and the vehicle is not running, in plain site of the leo is a lawful act and does not put the officers safety at risk therefore you stay inside the vehicle for your own safety. Let the courts work out any obstruction issue the PD may file.

You're safety should be your main concern the same as the officer concern's-- Personal Safety..

My .02

CCJ

Huge difference between a traffic stop where an officer has Reasonable Suspicion of a crime or Probable Cause to write a ticket making a command to stay in the vehicle compared to an officer approaching someone who he does not suspect of crime and giving them an order to go inside.

If I was a judge I'd rule the first as a legal command, and the second as an illegal command.
 

Freedom1Man

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
4,462
Location
Greater Eastside Washington
Huge difference between a traffic stop where an officer has Reasonable Suspicion of a crime or Probable Cause to write a ticket making a command to stay in the vehicle compared to an officer approaching someone who he does not suspect of crime and giving them an order to go inside.

If I was a judge I'd rule the first as a legal command, and the second as an illegal command.

Strike "crime" and replace with "civil violation" or "civil infraction".

Speeding is not a crime.
 

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
Huge difference between a traffic stop where an officer has Reasonable Suspicion of a crime or Probable Cause to write a ticket making a command to stay in the vehicle compared to an officer approaching someone who he does not suspect of crime and giving them an order to go inside.

If I was a judge I'd rule the first as a legal command, and the second as an illegal command.

Thank you for you're reply.

So a person simply traveling along the roadway in a vehicle will give more reasonable suspicion or probable cause to an officer then someone standing on the corner of an apartment complex where a suspected criminal is on the lose? I simply want to learn, so please opine on your logic.
Thank you and best regards.

CCJ
 

Grim_Night

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2012
Messages
776
Location
Pierce County, Washington
Thank you for you're reply.

So a person simply traveling along the roadway in a vehicle will give more reasonable suspicion or probable cause to an officer then someone standing on the corner of an apartment complex where a suspected criminal is on the lose? I simply want to learn, so please opine on your logic.
Thank you and best regards.

CCJ

how is it that I presented any RAS/PC at all by standing on a sidewalk inside an apartment complex? I obviously was not the suspect they were looking for or they would have detained/arrested me as soon as they saw me. They had a general description of the suspect and the person looked nothing like me. For starters, I'm white and walk with a cane so I'm obviously not the black man that was RUNNING from the police. So again, how did my presence in a location I was legally allowed to be pose as any RAS/PC at all?
 
Last edited:

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
how is it that I presented any RAS/PC at all by standing on a sidewalk inside an apartment complex? I obviously was not the suspect they were looking for or they would have detained/arrested me as soon as they saw me. They had a general description of the suspect and the person looked nothing like me. For starters, I'm white and walk with a cane so I'm obviously not the black man that was RUNNING from the police. So again, how did my presence in a location I was legally allowed to be pose as any RAS/PC at all?

Hi Grim

I thought this thread was about the legal authority of a leo giving commands and the rights of a citizen to not follow such a command not about RAS or PC? There is plenty of case law to support RAS and PC as defined in the 4thA however I am not aware of any case law regarding a law abiding citizens non compliance of a leo command to take shelter during a search for a criminal suspect.

Obviously some commands should be followed. IE, you're walking down the street and you are surrounded by gun pointing LEO and they command that you put your hands in the air and stay still... I would suggest you put your hands up and stay still. However if you're standing on the corner and one leo runs past and says hey, we are searching for a robbery suspect, please go back inside your apartment, clearly this request is not a command but a simple request... There are always grey areas and common sense situations..

My .02

Regards

CCJ
 

Grim_Night

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2012
Messages
776
Location
Pierce County, Washington
Hi Grim

I thought this thread was about the legal authority of a leo giving commands and the rights of a citizen to not follow such a command not about RAS or PC? There is plenty of case law to support RAS and PC as defined in the 4thA however I am not aware of any case law regarding a law abiding citizens non compliance of a leo command to take shelter during a search for a criminal suspect.

Obviously some commands should be followed. IE, you're walking down the street and you are surrounded by gun pointing LEO and they command that you put your hands in the air and stay still... I would suggest you put your hands up and stay still. However if you're standing on the corner and one leo runs past and says hey, we are searching for a robbery suspect, please go back inside your apartment, clearly this request is not a command but a simple request... There are always grey areas and common sense situations..

My .02

Regards

CCJ

In your previous post, you commented about RAS/PC regarding "someone standing on the corner of an apartment complex where a suspected criminal is on the lose" vs. "person simply traveling along the roadway in a vehicle". So in fact, it was you that brought up the RAS/PC issue. I was simply stating that the "someone standing on the corner of an apartment complex where a suspected criminal is on the lose" example is exactly what I have been dealing with and that the LPD had NO RAS/PC to even make contact with me let alone arrest and release me. A fact that my lawyer agrees with.

I started this thread in response to what happened to me on April 2nd 2014. I was vague about details because I didn't want to post too much information until after my court date on the 15th. Now that I have had the court date and the charge has been dismissed, I'm free to talk about it all I want.

I was trying to determine if LEOs could lawfully give an order regarding my situation. If not then they arrested me without RAS/PC simply because I refused to comply with their "order" and then try to prosecute me for obstruction claiming that I interfered with their investigation because my very presence interfered with the K9 unit on the scene.
 
Last edited:

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
In your previous post, you commented about RAS/PC regarding "someone standing on the corner of an apartment complex where a suspected criminal is on the lose" vs. "person simply traveling along the roadway in a vehicle". So in fact, it was you that brought up the RAS/PC issue. I was simply stating that the "someone standing on the corner of an apartment complex where a suspected criminal is on the lose" example is exactly what I have been dealing with and that the LPD had NO RAS/PC to even make contact with me let alone arrest and release me. A fact that my lawyer agrees with.

I started this thread in response to what happened to me on April 2nd 2014. I was vague about details because I didn't want to post too much information until after my court date on the 15th. Now that I have had the court date and the charge has been dismissed, I'm free to talk about it all I want.

I was trying to determine if LEOs could lawfully give an order regarding my situation. If not then they arrested me without RAS/PC simply because I refused to comply with their "order" and then try to prosecute me for obstruction claiming that I interfered with their investigation because my very presence interfered with the K9 unit on the scene.

Hi Grim
If you're lawyer feels you're rights were violated and that you were detained and arrested then start seeking redress under USC 42 section 1983 along with criminal charges under USC 18 241-242...
My .02
Regards
CCJ
 

Grim_Night

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2012
Messages
776
Location
Pierce County, Washington
Ok so here are the details of the incident (now that the case has been settled in court).

At approximately midnight of April 2nd 2014, I was suffering from chronic pain that was disturbing my sleep. I decided to go for a walk inside the apartment complex of which I reside with my roommate. I decided to go for a walk because I did not want to disturb my roommate who was sleeping and had to work the next morning.

While I was walking around the apartment complex on the sidewalks, I noticed that there was police activity in the area (multiple Lakewood Police cars parked on public roads outside the gates apartment complex with emergency lights active). As I made my way back to the building where my apartment is located, I noticed a neighbor who was standing at the corner of the building closest to the street. I went over to chat with him and inquire as to whether he knew what the police were doing. He informed me that he did not know but that he knew they were inside the gated apartment complex. He then pointed to where a couple of officers were (their flashlights visible in the direction of the opposite end of my building).

I then walked to the other end of the sidewalk in front of my apartment building and stood at the end of the building in full light provided by the building's external lights. 2 officers approached me and one of them asked me to go back inside. I asked if I was legally required to do so. The officer responded that no I was not but it was for my own safety because they were looking for a fleeing felony suspect and that they had a K9 unit on the property searching for said suspect. I said that because I was not legally required to comply with the request, I would not comply. I continued to stand in the same spot that the initial contact was made by Lakewood PD after the 2 officers walked away.

The 2 officers joined a 3rd near the gate to the pool area at the management building. The original officer then approached me again and asked me for ID. I simply stated that I was not required to give it to him. He asked me why I didn't want to give it to him and I told him that I had committed no crime and that I had no legal requirement to provide ID. He then walked away again to join the other 2 officers near the management building.

I continued to stand in the same spot, not doing anything other then using my cane to keep my balance as I stood there. A few minutes later, a group of 2 officers with a german shepherd on a leach made an appearance from the pathway between the 2 rear most buildings inside the complex. As they did so, a group of 2 women started walking down the stairs from the 3rd floor of the building. The dog started barking and the officers asked them to go back inside. They said they were going to check their mail. The officers asked if they could do it later. The women said yes then went back to the 3rd floor and then presumably back to their apartment. After a minute or 2, the 2 officers with the dog turned back around and went back the direction they came from.

Shortly thereafter (within a minute or 2) the original officer that made contact with me and the 2 others he was with came back over to me and told me I was under arrest. I asked what for and was told for obstruction of a law enforcement officer. I was cuffed and the original officer seized my openly carried handgun on my right him and told me in an aggressive tone that I needed to tell them that I had a weapon because I could have gotten shot. I informed him that I was under no obligation to inform him or any officer that I was doing a lawful activity and that I was open carrying. He started to pat me down. he found my wallet in my front left pocket of my sweat pants and asked what it was. I said it was my wallet (at no point did I tell him he could take it) and he then took it out of my pocket, opened it and removed my driver's license.

I asked if they were going to read me my rights. They said no and that the sergeant would do that when he arrived. All the while I was being questioned with my hands cuffed behind my back and without my cane and not allowed to sit down. Finally after complaining enough to them that I could not stand any longer without my cane because of my arthritis, they walked me over to a picnic table in front of my building and helped me to sit down. I was questioned some more and even talked to by another officer who had possession of my firearm who told me that I was not getting it back until it was taken apart because he was not going to give me back a fully functional weapon. Finally the sergeant arrived. By this point, there were at least 6 officers in close proximity to me.

The sergeant read me my rights and then asked if I wanted to speak with a lawyer, I said yes and he said "well that's not going to happen right now" then continued to question me. They eventually removed the cuffs only to replace them with a set that had a longer chain so that I could reposition my arms to be more comfortable. After some more questioning, I was released with a single piece of paper saying I was being charged with RCW 9A.76.020 Obstructing a law enforcement officer, and told it was because I interfered with the K9 unit. I was given back my firearm in 2 brown paper bags (1 bag contained the magazine with and 16 bullets removed while the other contained my firearm broken down into the slide, frame, recoil spring/pin and the barrel). The officers then left.

On April 15th 2014, I had my hearing at the Lakewood municipal court where the PA/DA (never could figure out the difference) was reading off the police report regarding the incident. While listening to the PA/DA read off the same details I have already posted, I asked my lawyer how any of this constituted a crime. She told me that they haven't proven probable cause and that she was going to ask for an immediate dismissal because of that. Turns out that the PA/DA ended up dismissing the case.

There is a chance that they may refile because they dismissed without prejudice.

Sorry for the long post but I wanted to make sure to give as much detail as possible. I have photos detailing the incident.
 
Last edited:

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
Thank you for standing up for our liberties.

They knew they didn't have a case so did the persecutor, they count on most people capitulating and copping a plea.
 
Top