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Thread: who makes the Marines look bad -- this guy -think the military protects constitution?

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    who makes the Marines look bad -- this guy -think the military protects constitution?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRsM...layer_embedded

    Marine steals a flag from a US citizen because he did not like how he was flying it (upside down in protest of shootings in NM).

    Attention dude: there is no constitutional right to require a flag to be flow how you think it should but there is one for freedom of speech

    Anyone who thinks that members of the military defend us, this is an example of how this viewpoint is wrong.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    I agree with you, but it will be interesting to see how the tide rolls on this one.

    Most everyone was praising some vet that stole a flag from a Mexican-American for flying the Mexico flag over the American flag a couple years ago.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Nothing like a little Nationalist "pride".

    Trumps any form of rational thought.

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    As a former member of the military, with 2 deployments while wearing the flag of our country on my shoulder, I have to say I would have done EXACTLY the same thing.

    What APD did has me concerned as those protesting, but disrespecting the flag that many have fought and died under is done at your own peril....

    Flying the flag upside down is a sign of distress. Those on the bike were DEFINITELY distressed with those 2 chasing them down... LOL!

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRsM...layer_embedded

    Marine steals a flag from a US citizen because he did not like how he was flying it (upside down in protest of shootings in NM).

    Attention dude: there is no constitutional right to require a flag to be flow how you think it should but there is one for freedom of speech

    Anyone who thinks that members of the military defend us, this is an example of how this viewpoint is wrong.
    What has the Star Spangled Banner have to do with protesting APD? If there is a Albuquerque flag I would fly that upside down in protest.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xd shooter View Post
    As a former member of the military, with 2 deployments while wearing the flag of our country on my shoulder, I have to say I would have done EXACTLY the same thing.

    What APD did has me concerned as those protesting, but disrespecting the flag that many have fought and died under is done at your own peril....
    So, let me get this straight. You're saying that you fought for – or at least respect – the symbol of a government, over the fundamental and constitutionally-protected right to criticize that government?

    You might consider relocating to a country like China or Russia. In such places your rabidly anti-American views might be more at home. (Disclaimer to the thin-skinned: I'm mostly kidding.)

    If the flag has value, it's as a symbol of the freedoms our government supposedly exists to protect. So you can see that these marines are the ones devaluing the flag. By their very act of "defending it" they diminish whatever value it had before they crapped all over it.
    Last edited by marshaul; 04-03-2014 at 09:12 AM.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    What has the Star Spangled Banner have to do with protesting APD? If there is a Albuquerque flag I would fly that upside down in protest.
    I think it's a fair statement.

    Don't forget that the many issues with law enforcement, beyond being systematic and national, are literally subsidized (if not engendered outright) by the Federal government. So I see no reason why folks shouldn't protest every level of government excess.

    Limiting one's protest to Albuquerque seems to somewhat miss the point, IMO.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    It's a piece of cloth.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    It's a piece of cloth.
    ... and less than the oath?
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    I did not swear an oath to the flag, but a document.

    Not every LEA is a APD to my knowledge. There are far too many "APDs" make no mistake. But, APD seems to be the LEA that deserves a microscoping for the time being.

    Bottom line, the Marine did a disservice to himself and the principle(s) that he likely swore an oath to. He is confused and requires reeducation.

    Therefore, I "sentence" him to a 15 minute timeout to think about it, and 25 push-ups.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  11. #11
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    I have never said an oath to government or a pledge to the flag.

    I respect it as a symbol of our government one that used to mean liberty. I respect peoples right to do with their property and their exercise of making statements with it more.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  12. #12
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    It's a piece of cloth.
    Not to the guys that die for it. Not to the guys that are still hurt for life. Not to the guys that sign up to GIVE said live it limb for it.

    Its a rally cry. A symbol. A banner. A reminder of those before you that died to make it happen.

    Don't forget... your "liberties" are secured by guys who literally wear that symbol and follow it. Your "liberties" were secured by guys who followed that flag. All the way from General Washington to General Odenario. And all the future attacks be it direct or indirect will be led it defended with that "cloth" at the front.

    There is a thing in life called tact or decency. Can you mess with a flag because its "cloth"? Sure. But by doing so your taking a nice crap on the boys in Arlington. Make a sign. Make a poster. Paint your car. Make your own flag.

    Don't **** with mine please.



    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    What has the Star Spangled Banner have to do with protesting APD? If there is a Albuquerque flag I would fly that upside down in protest.
    This is Truth! If you choose to protest what your apd has done, use a proper protest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Not to the guys that die for it. Not to the guys that are still hurt for life. Not to the guys that sign up to GIVE said live it limb for it.

    Its a rally cry. A symbol. A banner. A reminder of those before you that died to make it happen.
    I took the "oath". I recited it many, many times during my career in the Military. For some it is "just cloth" for others it is more. For me it is the blood shed by my Family who have served the Nation for over two hundred years. It is just cloth, but for some of us it represents a way of life.
    Last edited by MSG Laigaie; 04-03-2014 at 11:45 AM. Reason: spelink
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Not to the guys that die for it. Not to the guys that are still hurt for life. Not to the guys that sign up to GIVE said live it limb for it.

    Its a rally cry. A symbol. A banner. A reminder of those before you that died to make it happen.

    Don't forget... your "liberties" are secured by guys who literally wear that symbol and follow it. Your "liberties" were secured by guys who followed that flag. All the way from General Washington to General Odenario. And all the future attacks be it direct or indirect will be led it defended with that "cloth" at the front.

    There is a thing in life called tact or decency. Can you mess with a flag because its "cloth"? Sure. But by doing so your taking a nice crap on the boys in Arlington. Make a sign. Make a poster. Paint your car. Make your own flag.

    Don't **** with mine please.



    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    Yours? Give me a break.

    If someone wants to protest the actions of government and burn or do what ever they want to the symbol that represents that government, that is more sacred than offending you.

    Atrocities is being done in the name of it too, erosion of liberties, unconstitutional foreign entanglements

    You sir cannot claim to protect my liberties while at the same time insist I give them up. Absurd.

    No liberties are protected by people regardless of what symbol they wear. Nationalistic Jingoism has done a lot to destroy liberties. You do realize George Washington didn't fight for a nation called United States right?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    I took the "oath". I recited it many, many times during my career in the Military. For some it is "just cloth" for others it is more. For me it is the blood shed by my Family who have served the Nation for over two hundred years. It is just cloth, but for some of us it represents a way of life.
    You sir have my respect, not only as a warrior, but for the intelligence of differentiating between and respecting individual views.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Not to the guys that die for it. Not to the guys that are still hurt for life. Not to the guys that sign up to GIVE said live it limb for it.

    Its a rally cry. A symbol. A banner. A reminder of those before you that died to make it happen.

    Don't forget... your "liberties" are secured by guys who literally wear that symbol and follow it. Your "liberties" were secured by guys who followed that flag. All the way from General Washington to General Odenario. And all the future attacks be it direct or indirect will be led it defended with that "cloth" at the front.

    There is a thing in life called tact or decency. Can you mess with a flag because its "cloth"? Sure. But by doing so your taking a nice crap on the boys in Arlington. Make a sign. Make a poster. Paint your car. Make your own flag.

    Don't **** with mine please.
    Its also a piece of property that was stolen. The military does not secure our freedoms. The government and their officials never can grant us freedoms but can only take them away. Anyone who thinks that Marines under the command of obamamlama are going to ignore their orders as a whole is mistaken.

    Show me instances where a soldier has stopped a cop from arresting a person who OCs legally. They are all around us ... I have seen no video showing this behavior.

    The people with the flag were not protesting the Marine personally. He should have had the discipline to allow the guys to exercise their first amendment rights.

    This guy is probably going to be the same guy busting down your door to steal you guns because citizens with guns are a danger to the government.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    No liberties are protected by people regardless of what symbol they wear. Nationalistic Jingoism has done a lot to destroy liberties. You do realize George Washington didn't fight for a nation called United States right?
    ABSOLUTELY!


    I would argue that any conflict our military has been engaged in after WW2 has "secured" NOTHING for anyone but the M.I.C.(military industrial complex) and the Bank$$$$(massive incured Debt).


    Blowback is the NUMBER 1 reason for any legitimate attack on US citizens or military.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    I have never said an oath to government or a pledge to the flag.

    I respect it as a symbol of our government one that used to mean liberty. I respect peoples right to do with their property and their exercise of making statements with it more.
    This is exactly why I served.

    My oath, that I freely took and understood, was to "ensure" that I could be "spit on" (rhetorically speaking) by those who despise my service. No, SVG, I am not referring to you.

    The debate, a healthy one, is what "ensure" means. It means different things to different people. Did my service directly "ensure" that you (the royal you) could "spit on" me? Likely not, over a 20 year career, but it, my service, sure did not infringe upon your right to "spit on" me.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    This is exactly why I served.

    My oath, that I freely took and understood, was to "ensure" that I could be "spit on" (rhetorically speaking) by those who despise my service. No, SVG, I am not referring to you.

    The debate, a healthy one, is what "ensure" means. It means different things to different people. Did my service directly "ensure" that you (the royal you) could "spit on" me? Likely not, over a 20 year career, but it, my service, sure did not infringe upon your right to "spit on" me.
    +100
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  20. #20
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff. State View Post
    ABSOLUTELY!


    I would argue that any conflict our military has been engaged in after WW2 has "secured" NOTHING for anyone but the M.I.C.(military industrial complex) and the Bank$$$$(massive incured Debt).


    Blowback is the NUMBER 1 reason for any legitimate attack on US citizens or military.
    This would definitely be a major thread drift so I will just leave it at I would go back further and say it was the war for Independence by 13 Sovereign states and by the militias of those states
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member F350's Avatar
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    OK people, here it is; flying the US flag upside down IS a traditionally accepted display in certain situations.....

    The beginning
    Prior to June 14, 1923--flag day--no state or federal regulations governed the proper display of the U.S. flag. A conference was called to adopt a National Flag Code based on provisions set forth by the Army and Navy and relating the proper procedures on the display of the U.S. Flag.

    Flag Code
    On June 22, 1942, Congress passed a joint resolution, which became Public Law 829; Chapter 806, 77th Congress, 2nd session. The actual code for proper display and use of the U.S. flag can be found within 36 United States Code 173-178, title 4, chapter 1 subsection 8. (Ref. 2.)


    Meaning
    According to this code, "the flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property." (Ref. 1.)

    History
    While the 21st century offers many modes of communication, this was not so when the Navy first formed. Without a viable way to communicate with other ships, hanging the flag upside down was an effective way to signal an emergency to other ships at sea.

    Putting it all together
    While the federal government does not prohibit hanging the U.S. flag upside down, the only acceptable reason to hang the flag upside down is in cases of dire distress.


    As a former Marine I on occasion as a form of protest have flown the US flag upside down!
    Last edited by F350; 04-03-2014 at 07:47 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    OK people, here it is; flying the US flag upside down IS a traditionally accepted display in certain situations.....



    As a former Marine I on occasion as a form of protest have flown the US flag upside down!
    How dare you disrespect your service!?!

  23. #23
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    OK people, here it is; flying the US flag upside down IS a traditionally accepted display in certain situations.....



    As a former Marine I on occasion as a form of protest have flown the US flag upside down!
    You can't do that to Primus's flag!

    On a more serious note thank your for exercising your rights!
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 04-03-2014 at 10:19 PM.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    I believe the US military does in fact protect Americans from invasion.

    The US military has in the past fought and won freedom for millions upon millions of people.

    The war in Afghanistan I believe was fought for safety and not really freedom for Americans.

    Does the US military protect the constitution ? I would say yes. They protect against invasion and that keeps our constitution in order.

    The military allows for Americans to settle their constitutional disputes within the confines of the constitution which means the laws and the courts.

    I don't see the American military doing anything to violate constitutional rights on any systemic level.

    Now, congress, the president and states are a different matter.

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onus View Post
    I don't see the American military doing anything to violate constitutional rights on any systemic level.
    Members of the military? Probably not.

    It's a safe bet, however, that it would be impossible to support present levels of military spending (in what should be peacetime) without theft.

    It's also inarguable that the military (at the bureaucratic level) is engaged in grift with regard to the military-industrial complex: witness the incredible waste (e.g. buying machines which are later retired unused). It's safe to say that the confluence of private lobby influence and the demands of military leadership represent a systemic perversion of incentive, if not an outright conflict of interest.
    Last edited by marshaul; 04-04-2014 at 04:19 AM.

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