who makes the Marines look bad -- this guy -think the military protects constitution?

marshaul · Apr 3, 2014

F350 said:
OK people, here it is; flying the US flag upside down IS a traditionally accepted display in certain situations.....

As a former Marine I on occasion as a form of protest have flown the US flag upside down!

How dare you disrespect your service!?!

sudden valley gunner · Apr 3, 2014

F350 said:
OK people, here it is; flying the US flag upside down IS a traditionally accepted display in certain situations.....

As a former Marine I on occasion as a form of protest have flown the US flag upside down!

You can't do that to Primus's flag!

On a more serious note thank your for exercising your rights!

onus · Apr 4, 2014

I believe the US military does in fact protect Americans from invasion.

The US military has in the past fought and won freedom for millions upon millions of people.

The war in Afghanistan I believe was fought for safety and not really freedom for Americans.

Does the US military protect the constitution ? I would say yes. They protect against invasion and that keeps our constitution in order.

The military allows for Americans to settle their constitutional disputes within the confines of the constitution which means the laws and the courts.

I don't see the American military doing anything to violate constitutional rights on any systemic level.

Now, congress, the president and states are a different matter.

marshaul · Apr 4, 2014

onus said:
I don't see the American military doing anything to violate constitutional rights on any systemic level.

Members of the military? Probably not.

It's a safe bet, however, that it would be impossible to support present levels of military spending (in what should be peacetime) without theft.

It's also inarguable that the military (at the bureaucratic level) is engaged in grift with regard to the military-industrial complex: witness the incredible waste (e.g. buying machines which are later retired unused). It's safe to say that the confluence of private lobby influence and the demands of military leadership represent a systemic perversion of incentive, if not an outright conflict of interest.

davidmcbeth · Apr 4, 2014

onus said:
Does the US military protect the constitution ? I would say yes. They protect against invasion and that keeps our constitution in order.
.

A common misconception that keeping invaders out = protecting the constitution

Can the military keep invaders out and then also, at the same time, infringe on our constitutional rights? Yes.

sudden valley gunner · Apr 4, 2014

onus said:
I

Now, congress, the president and states are a different matter.

Those are who hold the purse strings, those are who use the military in unconstitutional foreign wars, those are who have thrashed posse comitatus in using military for unconstitutional domestic drug wars, have militarized the police forces with military equipment.

Who was it that disarmed the citizens of areas of Louisiana after Katrina?

There could be an argument for a standing military of some sort for protection (although there is one that makes it unconstitutional too) The massive amounts of money that "eat out our sustenance" is gross and violates the principles of the constitution.

davidmcbeth · Apr 4, 2014

sudden valley gunner said:
Those are who hold the purse strings, those are who use the military in unconstitutional foreign wars, those are who have thrashed posse comitatus in using military for unconstitutional domestic drug wars, have militarized the police forces with military equipment.

Who was it that disarmed the citizens of areas of Louisiana after Katrina?

There could be an argument for a standing military of some sort for protection (although there is one that makes it unconstitutional too) The massive amounts of money that "eat out our sustenance" is gross and violates the principles of the constitution.

Did not some of our founding fathers warn us about our own armies?

sudden valley gunner · Apr 4, 2014

davidmcbeth said:
Did not some of our founding fathers warn us about our own armies?

Yep and the courts and politicians keep inventing work arounds.

I would say the close to a million Law enFORCEment is a standing army doing much of the duties of the redcoats during the colonist days.

Red Dawg · Apr 4, 2014

What the Marine did was theft. He/I/we fought for the right of that guy to display his flag as he saw fit. As people have said, and people have sung about, the flag is a symbol of freedom. I defended what it STANDS FOR. I earned the right to fly my flag as I see fit, and so have others. I don't buy a new flag when it gets a little fadded, or ragged. I have gotten a little faded and ragged too.
Yes, we have ALLOWED our government and our military to get "super sized". That seems to be the way of the country..Go big, or go home. But the fact that we have a strong military, and we print money to back it pretty much assures that we will not be invaded by foreign countries. Hmm, so how are there a bazzillion people here illeagally from Mexico? What would we, as Americans do should they all decide to take up arms one day? Could we call that an invasion? If so, we have been invaded by a foreign country...Now, what shall we do about it?

marshaul · Apr 4, 2014

Red Dawg said:
Hmm, so how are there a bazzillion people here illeagally from Mexico? What would we, as Americans do should they all decide to take up arms one day? Could we call that an invasion? If so, we have been invaded by a foreign country...Now, what shall we do about it?

We should relax. American culture is dominant, to say the least.

It's a mistake to believe you can rely on government to do something like "secure borders" and "keep illegals out". No government has never had that degree of efficacy.

But you know what? That's OK. Fear-mongerong regarding "illegals" has little basis in reality, but great basis in the desire to whip up votes, i.e. increase the power of the GOP (note this is not a partisan rant... more on this later).

And I hate to break it to folks, but the GOP (and the democratic party) represents a far more serious threat to the American way of life than do all the Mexicans on Earth.

The reason is simple. Liberty is a self-defending principle. Liberty not only persists, but it spreads without force of arms. The best thing you can do to convince folks to adopt liberty as a principle is to offer it to them. Few folks will work against liberty once they themselves possess it. On the other hand, if you deny it to folks, or offer them a watered-down version of it, you significantly reduce the incentive to defend and further liberty.

Contrary to the notion that government defends liberty, in truth, government is likely the only entity capable of destroying liberty. For instance, in this debate it is often rightly pointed out that many have learned to support government over liberty to protect the handouts they receive from government. There are two misconceptions about this fact, however. The first is that the overwhelming majority of handouts are given to American citizens, not immigrants. More importantly is the fact that the incentives created by handouts are a perversion created by government, not the people who receive them. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy: make people reliant on government, and they will support government to a fault.

This is par for the course. Left to its own devices, liberty would likely cause a government to shrink to reasonable size. So the government must take action to defend itself. So it offers handouts to the poor and sympathetic, then points to its own mess as a reason we need to rely on it to protect our borders.

So, it's not that there are a horde of "illegal" Mexicans waiting to come and sap our culture (although one might argue culture doesn't work that way in the first place), steal our money, and generally vote for Democrats into perpetuity. The truth is that the world is filled with poor people, and the government will use any of them to create a self-fulfilling prophecy of fear to inspire folks to statism. "Let's create borders and immigration laws. Let's then fail to enforce them adequately, and give lots of handouts to poor folks, and then tell Americans that there is an invasion – a threat to national sovereignty – and only government can stop it. No matter that we created the circumstances and imagined the threat all for our own gain!"

And make no mistake, the GOP is every bit as responsible for this as is the Democratic Party. Call it a bit of good cop bad cop (who's the good cop depends on your perspective). The Democratic Party creates a bunch of handouts to collect votes. The GOP, after carefully failing to prevent these handouts, then points to these as a reason to vote for them and increase government power under the (R) label.

So the net result of this is that everybody supports government. Those who get the handouts support government to continue receiving handouts (i.e. vote democrat). The rest support government to fight the evils which result from government's own policy (i.e. vote GOP). Lost in the mix is anybody who might oppose government itself, which created the whole self-fulfilling prophecy in the first place.

I can promise you that immigration, from any country, is no more nor less of a threat than is useful to our government. It is a grievous mistake to turn to government as a solution for concerns you may have about immigration. Government creates these problems, and further empowering it only allows it to create new and worse problems for the future.

The best thing one can do is possess "the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." What we cannot change are the fact that the world is filled with different people, and that government is powerless (and, perhaps more importantly, possesses every disincentive) to preventing their ingress. What we can do is further liberty, even when doing so in the "tempestuous sea" of it may seem frightening, and inspire folks by example. We can shrink government (and, no, I don't mean "voting for the GOP", who are every bit as much to blame as any other entity) and lessen the artificial incentives opposing liberty.

But by worrying, and turning to government out of fear, we can only expect the problem (if indeed there is one) to get worse.

marshaul · Apr 4, 2014

davidmcbeth said:
Did not some of our founding fathers warn us about our own armies?

The Virginia Constitution said:
Section 13. Militia; standing armies; military subordinate to civil power.

That a well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state, therefore, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided as dangerous to liberty; and that in all cases the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power.

Yup.

PistolPackingMomma · Apr 4, 2014

marshaul said:
We should relax. American culture is dominant, to say the least.

It's a mistake to believe you can rely on government to do something like "secure borders" and "keep illegals out". No government has never had that degree of efficacy.

But you know what? That's OK. Fear-mongerong regarding "illegals" has little basis in reality, but great basis in the desire to whip up votes, i.e. increase the power of the GOP (note this is not a partisan rant... more on this later).

And I hate to break it to folks, but the GOP (and the democratic party) represents a far more serious threat to the American way of life than do all the Mexicans on Earth.

The reason is simple. Liberty is a self-defending principle. Liberty not only persists, but it spreads without force of arms. The best thing you can do to convince folks to adopt liberty as a principle is to offer it to them. Few folks will work against liberty once they themselves possess it. On the other hand, if you deny it to folks, or offer them a watered-down version of it, you significantly reduce the incentive to defend and further liberty.

Contrary to the notion that government defends liberty, in truth, government is likely the only entity capable of destroying liberty. For instance, in this debate it is often rightly pointed out that many have learned to support government over liberty to protect the handouts they receive from government. There are two misconceptions about this fact, however. The first is that the overwhelming majority of handouts are given to American citizens, not immigrants. More importantly is the fact that the incentives created by handouts are a perversion created by government, not the people who receive them. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy: make people reliant on government, and they will support government to a fault.

This is par for the course. Left to its own devices, liberty would likely cause a government to shrink to reasonable size. So the government must take action to defend itself. So it offers handouts to the poor and sympathetic, then points to its own mess as a reason we need to rely on it to protect our borders.

So, it's not that there are a horde of "illegal" Mexicans waiting to come and sap our culture (although one might argue culture doesn't work that way in the first place), steal our money, and generally vote for Democrats into perpetuity. The truth is that the world is filled with poor people, and the government will use any of them to create a self-fulfilling prophecy of fear to inspire folks to statism. "Let's create borders and immigration laws. Let's then fail to enforce them adequately, and give lots of handouts to poor folks, and then tell Americans that there is an invasion – a threat to national sovereignty – and only government can stop it. No matter that we created the circumstances and imagined the threat all for our own gain!"

And make no mistake, the GOP is every bit as responsible for this as is the Democratic Party. Call it a bit of good cop bad cop (who's the good cop depends on your perspective). The Democratic Party creates a bunch of handouts to collect votes. The GOP, after carefully failing to prevent these handouts, then points to these as a reason to vote for them and increase government power under the (R) label.

So the net result of this is that everybody supports government. Those who get the handouts support government to continue receiving handouts (i.e. vote democrat). The rest support government to fight the evils which result from government's own policy (i.e. vote GOP). Lost in the mix is anybody who might oppose government itself, which created the whole self-fulfilling prophecy in the first place.

I can promise you that immigration, from any country, is no more nor less of a threat than is useful to our government. It is a grievous mistake to turn to government as a solution for concerns you may have about immigration. Government creates these problems, and further empowering it only allows it to create new and worse problems for the future.

The best thing one can do is possess "the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." What we cannot change are the fact that the world is filled with different people, and that government is powerless (and, perhaps more importantly, possesses every disincentive) to preventing their ingress. What we can do is further liberty, even when doing so in the "tempestuous sea" of it may seem frightening, and inspire folks by example. We can shrink government (and, no, I don't mean "voting for the GOP", who are every bit as much to blame as any other entity) and lessen the artificial incentives opposing liberty.

But by worrying, and turning to government out of fear, we can only expect the problem (if indeed there is one) to get worse.

Mothalovin' post of the day. +1 to you Sir!

OC for ME · Apr 4, 2014

Ya don't fire Santa Clause.

Have Gun - Will Carry · Apr 4, 2014

marshaul said:
We should relax. American culture is dominant, to say the least.

It's a mistake to believe you can rely on government to do something like "secure borders" and "keep illegals out". No government has never had that degree of efficacy.

But you know what? That's OK. Fear-mongerong regarding "illegals" has little basis in reality, but great basis in the desire to whip up votes, i.e. increase the power of the GOP (note this is not a partisan rant... more on this later).

And I hate to break it to folks, but the GOP (and the democratic party) represents a far more serious threat to the American way of life than do all the Mexicans on Earth.

<snipped for conciseness - lots of good info, but no need to repeat it all here>

This is par for the course. Left to its own devices, liberty would likely cause a government to shrink to reasonable size. So the government must take action to defend itself. So it offers handouts to the poor and sympathetic, then points to its own mess as a reason we need to rely on it to protect our borders.

<snip>

And make no mistake, the GOP is every bit as responsible for this as is the Democratic Party. Call it a bit of good cop bad cop (who's the good cop depends on your perspective). The Democratic Party creates a bunch of handouts to collect votes. The GOP, after carefully failing to prevent these handouts, then points to these as a reason to vote for them and increase government power under the (R) label.

<snip>

So the net result of this is that everybody supports government. Those who get the handouts support government to continue receiving handouts (i.e. vote democrat). The rest support government to fight the evils which result from government's own policy (i.e. vote GOP). Lost in the mix is anybody who might oppose government itself, which created the whole self-fulfilling prophecy in the first place.

<snip>

The best thing one can do is possess "the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." What we cannot change are the fact that the world is filled with different people, and that government is powerless (and, perhaps more importantly, possesses every disincentive) to preventing their ingress. What we can do is further liberty, even when doing so in the "tempestuous sea" of it may seem frightening, and inspire folks by example. We can shrink government (and, no, I don't mean "voting for the GOP", who are every bit as much to blame as any other entity) and lessen the artificial incentives opposing liberty.

But by worrying, and turning to government out of fear, we can only expect the problem (if indeed there is one) to get worse.

Nailed it! ^^^^^^^^ Especially the bolded portions, IMO.

I've been saying for years that the so-called "two-party system" is destroying this country from within, but I've never been able to express it as clearly as this. Kudos!

Have Gun - Will Carry · Apr 4, 2014

F350 said:
OK people, here it is; flying the US flag upside down IS a traditionally accepted display in certain situations.....

Flag Code said:

According to this code, "the flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property." (Ref. 1.)

History
While the 21st century offers many modes of communication, this was not so when the Navy first formed. Without a viable way to communicate with other ships, hanging the flag upside down was an effective way to signal an emergency to other ships at sea.

Putting it all together
While the federal government does not prohibit hanging the U.S. flag upside down, the only acceptable reason to hang the flag upside down is in cases of dire distress.

Click to expand...

As a former Marine I on occasion as a form of protest have flown the US flag upside down!

I served this country a couple decades ago too. I also recited the oath freely, but (as it turns out) naively, due to my tender age. After my discharge I was appalled to find that I was not "allowed" to carry a firearm, despite the clear guarantee of the 2A that the right "shall not be infringed." Since then I have witnessed the unconscionable acts performed by "both" of our political parties (as if there are only two...), and the determination they seem to have for plunging this country off an upcoming cliff into the oblivion of bankruptcy and civil war.

I do love my country - but at this age, knowing what I know now, there is no way in he!! I would put my life on the line for the scum ostensibly running it! IMO, this nation is currently in great distress, and it's about time we trumpet that inescapable conclusion from the rooftops to everyone who will listen. If it takes flying Old Glory upside down to wake up the sheeple*, then I have no problem running that distress signal up the flagpole. I've considered doing that many times, and given the circumstances, I feel it would be especially appropriate to fly the Gadsden flag under it or next to it - or possibly even above it, despite the fact that it would be seen as even more disrespectful.

Look at it this way - it's not half as disrespectful or shameful as the way our Congress and President have been treating the citizens, the infrastructure, and the institutions of this country for decades. In distress? You betcha!

* Not that most sheeple would understand the meaning of flying the flag upside down...

onus · Apr 4, 2014

marshaul said:
And I hate to break it to folks, but the GOP (and the democratic party) represents a far more serious threat to the American way of life than do all the Mexicans on Earth.

So, it's not that there are a horde of "illegal" Mexicans waiting to come and sap our culture (although one might argue culture doesn't work that way in the first place), steal our money, and generally vote for Democrats into perpetuity.

One of the most idiotic statements ever made.

The GOP and Democrats have controlled American politics for at least 80 years.

America is the most prosperous, advanced and free country in the world.

Mexico ? Well, there is a reason Mexicans are risking death and jail to flee their utterly corrupt, third world crap hole of a country.

I shot a video today of 17 illegal aliens from Mexico who paid $3,000 a piece and took an open bow boat 90 miles over open ocean to reach America.

[video=youtube;tQ4d_hbwN2E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ4d_hbwN2E[/video]

Sounds like the Mexicans know America is a better place than Mexico. I'm surprised Marshaul doesn't know it. Of course, Marshaul lives in America and wont be moving to Mexico anytime soon.

marshaul · Apr 4, 2014

onus said:
One of the most idiotic statements ever made.

Very persuasive argument. I can't say I every looked at it quite that way.

I'm going to have to rethink this whole thing!

onus · Apr 4, 2014

marshaul said:
Very persuasive argument. I can't say I every looked at it quite that way.

I'm going to have to rethink this whole thing!

How about you spend some time in Juarez or Tijuana thinking about it.

You cant take your gun though.

I bet you would run back across the border so fast with your tail between your legs.

Have you even been to Mexico ?

wimwag · Apr 5, 2014

sudden valley gunner said:
It's a piece of cloth.

Maybe to you. As a first generation American it represents a promise and a responsibility.

Feel free to criticize the government, its your right! The flag represents WE THE PEOPLE, not the crooked government we for some reason keep reelecting.

stealthyeliminator · Apr 5, 2014

xd shooter said:
As a former member of the military, with 2 deployments while wearing the flag of our country on my shoulder, I have to say I would have done EXACTLY the same thing.

What APD did has me concerned as those protesting, but disrespecting the flag that many have fought and died under is done at your own peril....

Flying the flag upside down is a sign of distress. Those on the bike were DEFINITELY distressed with those 2 chasing them down... LOL!

If you ran at me like that, I'd shoot you in the chest until you hit the pavement. *******. You seem to have a twisted sense of liberty and rights, and you need to swallow your pride and get it straightened out.

Worse than 50%ers. People like you piss me off something terrible.

who makes the Marines look bad -- this guy -think the military protects constitution?

Campaign Veteran

Regular Member

Regular Member

Campaign Veteran

Banned

Regular Member

Banned

Regular Member

Regular Member

Campaign Veteran

Campaign Veteran

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Campaign Veteran

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member