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Thread: What Makes the 2nd.amendment better than the rest?

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    Regular Member outlaw13's Avatar
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    What Makes the 2nd.amendment better than the rest?

    I often meet people at the range or the gun stores around town,grocery store.....hell everywhere. They all have the same opinion on the 2nd amendment as we all do in here an its a topic that often comes up (because I open carry about as much as I conceal carry) but it seems that is as far into the political water as any wanna go. Other than the standard "It's getting Bad " or " Yea...I'm kinda to busy to keep up with that" answer seem not to many people even care about any of there other rights. To be fair let me be more specific, Not many people with guns seem to care. I would think that the old statement about the 2nd being their to protect the first would ring even more true now than ever. It would seem that those.....I mean Us gun toting powder burning AMERICANS would realize that by taking away any of our rights it only makes it easier to take the others. It would also seem that this has been falling on deaf ears for far to long, so please let me know if and what makes the 2nd more important that Freedom of speech or the right to Assembly or the right to LIVE as you see fit ( Pursuing you own happiness ). I look forward to reading any responses

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    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by outlaw13 View Post
    SNIP... To be fair let me be more specific, Not many people with guns seem to care. I would think that the old statement about the 2nd being their to protect the first would ring even more true now than ever. It would seem that those.....I mean Us gun toting powder burning AMERICANS would realize that by taking away any of our rights it only makes it easier to take the others. It would also seem that this has been falling on deaf ears for far to long, so please let me know if and what makes the 2nd more important that Freedom of speech or the right to Assembly or the right to LIVE as you see fit ( Pursuing you own happiness ). I look forward to reading any responses
    Welcome to OCDO and greetings from sunny, dry Arizona outlaw13!

    The way I see it, a populace which exercises the RKBA has a protection from a government which already wields substantial (if ill-gotten) influence over their lives. Put simply: it's much harder to force an ARMED citizen to submit to your demands than to force an unarmed citizen to submit.

    Here's an article from JPFO which puts it much more elegantly than I.
    http://jpfo.org/articles-assd02/marko.htm

    As a teaser, here are the title and first two paragraphs of the essay:
    "Why the Gun is Civilization
    By Marko Kloos

    Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that’s it.
    In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some."
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke

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    Because its the one that can insure the others? Can you imagine the laws that the gov't would pass w/o it?

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    How about this:

    The 1A is backed up by the 2A. And the 2A is to prevent your 3A and 4A from getting trampled.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    How about this:

    The 1A is backed up by the 2A. And the 2A is to prevent your 3A and 4A from getting trampled.
    I think this is the simplest way of putting it, yet covers the OP's question. Without the 2A the trampling of our rights would only get worse!

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    Regular Member outlaw13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    How about this:

    The 1A is backed up by the 2A. And the 2A is to prevent your 3A and 4A from getting trampled.
    I do agree with that. However i have yet to see the 2nd stop any politician from doing anything anymore. Free speech zones, stop an frisk, illegal detention. Yet when some one uses The big Number 2 to stop Government enforcers ( yes the cops...the only ones who enforce their laws) They are labled as the Great Evil, Cop Killer Scum. worse yet is the lack of support for the people who do stand up. HELL look at the martial law in Boston after the race and Bomb. Look at New Mexico .
    thanks for the response

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    Regular Member 2AFriendly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    How about this:

    The 1A is backed up by the 2A. And the 2A is to prevent your 3A and 4A from getting trampled.
    That's how I look at it. I personally feel that the 2A should have been first, not second in the list. But rights are rights and they are all important (and not given to us by a piece of paper )

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    Regular Member 2AFriendly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by outlaw13 View Post
    I do agree with that. However i have yet to see the 2nd stop any politician from doing anything anymore. Free speech zones, stop an frisk, illegal detention. Yet when some one uses The big Number 2 to stop Government enforcers ( yes the cops...the only ones who enforce their laws) They are labled as the Great Evil, Cop Killer Scum. worse yet is the lack of support for the people who do stand up. HELL look at the martial law in Boston after the race and Bomb. Look at New Mexico .
    thanks for the response
    Yes - read this:

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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2AFriendly View Post
    That's how I look at it. I personally feel that the 2A should have been first, not second in the list. But rights are rights and they are all important (and not given to us by a piece of paper )
    It was originally the 4th and not the 2nd.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    One might well ask, "What Makes the Second Amendment Worth Less Than the Rest?"

    Have you ever seen a state that licenses religion on a "may practice" basis?
    Have you ever seen a bank that has a "No Democratic Speech" sign barring entry?
    Have you ever seen a state where you the amount of horsepower in your car must be arbitrarily limited, or the number of doors?
    What about housing, where one's religion may prohibit one from living?

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    Regular Member Chief Ten Beers's Avatar
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    Plain and simple, without the second amendment, none of the others will be relevant.
    If you're not ashamed to own it, don't be ashamed to open carry it.

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    Concealed carry, where you HIDE the exercise of your right to carry arms.

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    To follow Chief Ten Beers---

    Without a populace willing to first KNOW and understand the Constitution and then secondly to elect persosn of integrity and honesty who also know and understand the Constitution and finally are willing to travel though HELL to support and defend the constitution in all their acts as Representatives of those who elected them NONE of the Constitution and the Bill or Rights is of any value to ANYONE.
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 04-05-2014 at 02:46 AM. Reason: Correct spelling of Beers
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
    Life Member GOA
    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by outlaw13 View Post
    I do agree with that. However i have yet to see the 2nd stop any politician from doing anything anymore. Free speech zones, stop an frisk, illegal detention. Yet when some one uses The big Number 2 to stop Government enforcers ( yes the cops...the only ones who enforce their laws) They are labled as the Great Evil, Cop Killer Scum. worse yet is the lack of support for the people who do stand up. HELL look at the martial law in Boston after the race and Bomb. Look at New Mexico .
    thanks for the response
    Laws/amendments do not stop politicians or criminals, but I repeat myself.

    Using the 2A to decide a political disagreement goes against the very tenents/rules of OCDO. We obey the law, even if it is unconstitutional and look to change bad laws through the court and/or legislature.

    People are standing up and in greater and greater numbers. The problem wasn't created in a year - it won't be fixed that quickly either.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Laws/amendments do not stop politicians or criminals, but I repeat myself.

    Using the 2A to decide a political disagreement goes against the very tenents/rules of OCDO. We obey the law, even if it is unconstitutional and look to change bad laws through the court and/or legislature.

    People are standing up and in greater and greater numbers. The problem wasn't created in a year - it won't be fixed that quickly either.
    "We obey the law, even if it is unconstitutional "?

    If it's unconstitutional then it is not law, it was null and void the second it was passed.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by med9044 View Post
    "We obey the law, even if it is unconstitutional "?

    If it's unconstitutional then it is not law, it was null and void the second it was passed.
    When you right the opinion for SCOTUS, I will accept that.

    Referring to Forum Rules

    (15) WE ADVOCATE FOR THE 'LAW-ABIDING' ONLY: Posts advocating illegal acts of any kind are NOT welcome here. Even if you feel that a law is unconstitutional we do not break it, we repeal it or defeat it in the courts.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member outlaw13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    When you right the opinion for SCOTUS, I will accept that.

    Referring to Forum Rules

    (15) WE ADVOCATE FOR THE 'LAW-ABIDING' ONLY: Posts advocating illegal acts of any kind are NOT welcome here. Even if you feel that a law is unconstitutional we do not break it, we repeal it or defeat it in the courts.
    First let me say that I type this with much Respect for a founding member. I'm new here an didn't fully read the rules, with that being said I do have a bit of a question. I noticed you sighted it (15) on two different post. If we are to take the 2nd amendment for self defense and not just hunting rights as many argue and this is an open carry forum. I do take it you promote carry for self defense an not just a fashion statement, and I'm not sure of any open carry hunting topics so I conclude it is promoting self defense. The 2nd Amendment is a self defense clause against Government. Making statements like The 2nd backs up the 1st and the rest is calling for the use of said "arms" to protect the other rights. Self defense from other civilians is ok but not self defense from the state? If Repeal and the court is the only line of exceptable defense then even bringing up the 2nd amendment is breaking rule 15.
    I carry to defend my life an my property if needed. (And I pray that i never need to) But i do not differ on who is trying to take my life, liberty or pursuit of happiness, be it a would be thug out for money, a crazy drug head out for fun or a tyrannical Government out for power and enslavement.
    My Firearm is a tool for self defense. Just like a saw is a tool for cutting, to only acknowledge its Ripping ability (cutting with the grain) an not its Crosscutting ability (cutting against the grain) would make for a very poor carpenter.

    However this is your forum an it is your rules. Sorry i was unclear on them so i will bring the topic up No more. Again sorry for the inconvenience.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by outlaw13 View Post
    --snipped for brevity--
    No inconvenience - the intent was to help.

    OCDO's primary mission is to promote and defend the right to open carry handguns as we go about our normal everyday lives. Object being self-defense and education of others through normalization.

    Secondary to that is anything related to RKBA and the 2nd Amendment including hunting, sport shooting, equipment, etc. If you review the Forum Rules and the sub-forum title descriptors following each, you should get a better picture of our direction.
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/forum.php

    Our discussions about the 2nd Amendment, must avoid specific content advocating using arms against our government. While I understand your points and logic, OCDO is firm in that change be wrought through the courts and legislatures, not through violence.

    We are very much in the public eye and value the results of our public relations capabilities.

    Hope you (others too) can understand and accept this + stay to contribute
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member outlaw13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    No inconvenience - the intent was to help.

    OCDO's primary mission is to promote and defend the right to open carry handguns as we go about our normal everyday lives. Object being self-defense and education of others through normalization.

    Secondary to that is anything related to RKBA and the 2nd Amendment including hunting, sport shooting, equipment, etc. If you review the Forum Rules and the sub-forum title descriptors following each, you should get a better picture of our direction.
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/forum.php

    Our discussions about the 2nd Amendment, must avoid specific content advocating using arms against our government. While I understand your points and logic, OCDO is firm in that change be wrought through the courts and legislatures, not through violence.

    We are very much in the public eye and value the results of our public relations capabilities.

    Hope you (others too) can understand and accept this + stay to contribute

    Well I have read the post on here for about 5 day now. When I found this site I was really excited about have a new place to communicate with like minded open carriers. Over the past week or so a Huge, situation involving the rights. The situation that warrants the 2nd. backing up the first. I won't mention were or who as not to violate rule 15. A man an his family standing against the federal BS agency. Not a word on here. Do you not understand that that if his rights are taken yours are sure to follow.
    The only active post are, an please forgive me for this but...... Omg like who's going to OC at the fireworks? Do I have a holster to match my outfit. I can't decide whether oc or cc will be blah blah blah. Fashion statements
    Don't worry about it folks at the rate they are going by this time next year you won't have to worry about making such choices. These communist will make it for you. And since every one seems down with the communist take over ill leave you all with a quote from one of the most famous commy bastards of all...."Political Power comes from the barrel of a GUN!" Mao Zedong
    Peace to you all

  19. #19
    Regular Member outlaw13's Avatar
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    The FEDS retreated!!!!!!!!

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    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    If that's true, it may be the best news we could hope to receive from this whole mess.

    To respond to your previous post, the course of action you refer to always remains on the table, but it is as a last resort because of the terrible nature of that Right. That is why OCDO advocates for the law-abiding only: if that terrible Right is ever put into practice by the American people, then it will be written in history that all other options were exhausted, and all attempts to correct the evils leading to that terrible Right being practiced failed, despite the best intentions of American patriots and Americans in general (squares and rectangles, respectively).
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke

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