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Thread: OC with non-retention holster?

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    Regular Member DaveT319's Avatar
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    OC with non-retention holster?

    There's belt and paddle holsters out there that don't really look like they are meant for CC, because they're just too bulky. So it would seem that they are more for OC. But they don't have any retention features other than simple tension or a tight fit.

    Does anyone use such holsters for OC? If so, do you worry at all about someone snatching it?

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    Personally I don't like just friction or gravity locks, I prefer at least two forms of retention over the years I have seen some handguns fall to the ground.

    For open carry I do and would carry a more secure type of holster.
    Last edited by Firearms Iinstuctor; 04-05-2014 at 07:25 AM.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    You have to answer that question for yourself, I will not tell another person how to carry. Whatever works for them is fine for me, as long as they don't accidentally or otherwise shoot my loved ones or I.

    IMO a good friction holster is just as good as one with a securing device. Criminals practice, and study techniques how to disarm police, if they want your weapon they will get it. SA and staying OUT of incidents where your gun might get grabbed is your best bet.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 04-05-2014 at 11:34 AM.
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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    No. I will not openly or concealed carry a handgun in a holster that has nothing more than friction retention, nor, if asked, will I recommend that to anyone else. While there may be thugs who "study how to remove a LEO's handgun from their holster," what I am protecting against is having someone try to prove that my firearm is "dangerous" because anyone could simply remove it from my holster. I agree that good SA goes a long way in enhancing the prevention of unauthorized access.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Problem is~~ it just is not your call. Freedom, liberty, and free will ya know. That is why I only worry about myself, and not others. One could lose their mind trying to impart their will on others.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    No. I will not openly or concealed carry a handgun in a holster that has nothing more than friction retention, nor, if asked, will I recommend that to anyone else. While there may be thugs who "study how to remove a LEO's handgun from their holster," what I am protecting against is having someone try to prove that my firearm is "dangerous" because anyone could simply remove it from my holster. I agree that good SA goes a long way in enhancing the prevention of unauthorized access.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Problem is~~ it just is not your call. Freedom, liberty, and free will ya know. That is why I only worry about myself, and not others. One could lose their mind trying to impart their will on others.
    Problem is~~ You simply did not read carefully nor comprehend what I wrote. I was very careful in my reply to the OP by stating what *I* would not do, followed by a statement that "if asked" I would not recommend the use of a holster that used friction as its only 'retention' capability. How you were able to conflate my remarks into "[my] call ... against freedom, liberty and free will" or "imposing [my] will on others" escapes me.
    Last edited by JamesCanby; 04-05-2014 at 02:32 PM.
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  7. #7
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    No. I will not openly or concealed carry a handgun in a holster that has nothing more than friction retention, nor, if asked, will I recommend that to anyone else. While there may be thugs who "study how to remove a LEO's handgun from their holster," what I am protecting against is having someone try to prove that my firearm is "dangerous" because anyone could simply remove it from my holster. I agree that good SA goes a long way in enhancing the prevention of unauthorized access.
    I understand your position, I just don't care. You will have a lot of sleepless nights.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member z28power's Avatar
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    To answer the OPs question:

    I have seen many of these holsters you mention. I do not personally use them. My OC holster is a level 2 retention holster for the same reasons already mentioned by yourself, James, and FirearmsInstructor.

    Basically, regardless of retention, if you are looking at a truly BAD person, they have likely already figured out how to defeat your retention mechanisms ( as already mentioned as well by Wolf) I'm just making it more difficult for the opportunist to make a move. Also, it makes me feel better knowing that even sitting, standing, running, whatever, I don't have to worry about the weapon coming out. Some retention holsters do sacrifice speed on draw so you would have to determine if you want to worry about that or not as well. Many with push button type releases do not sacrifice that speed, while others are more secure but do require a separate action prior to draw.

    That being said, I have OCed my CC holster, which is only friction based. I made sure to keep myself a bit more situationally aware than even when I OC my serpa, and wouldn't have problems doing it again, but for my regular OC I will keep the Level 2 retention.

    Just weigh the pros and cons, I'm certain you'll find a holster that fits your exact needs/wants!

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    I understand your position, I just don't care. You will have a lot of sleepless nights.
    If you believe that I will have sleepless nights because you don't care about my opinion, then you have a larger-than-life amount of hubris.

    Just in case the word escapes you, here's the definition:

    Hubris means extreme pride or self-confidence. Hubris often indicates a loss of contact with reality and an overestimation of one's own competence,
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    James,

    Don't waste you time with the "wolf" (fake Indian or ignorant wannabe): He's one of THE foremost Forum Fool/Post ****** here.

    Has nothing better to do (lots of time on hand I guess) to post his "thoughts" (term used loosely) on everything, whether or not he/she knows anything about the subject and/or has anything worthwhile to say -- or whether anyone wants to hear it (we don't). Much like that other guy (stupid gorilla avatar) who left the Forum a while back -- good riddance. And Weenie Wolf, being one of 2 such airheads in the in the Great State of North Carolina (who both like to tell people in other states what's going on with them, as if locals don't know better), he/she is just not worth wasting your time talking to, or even reading their crap.

    Although he/she's the kind of person you'd just LOVE to meet IN-person, it'll never happen, so in short, just ignore the irrelevant jerk...
    Last edited by cloudcroft; 04-07-2014 at 03:46 PM.

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    Regular Member Gallowmere's Avatar
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    I use an Uncle Mike's kydex that has only passive retention that grabs the trigger guard. It's retention is adjustable via the screws made into it. You can tighten or loosen to whatever you are most comfortable with. Believe me, if you're worried about it falling out, you can "fix" that too. Just for ***** and grins, I tightened the screws all the way down, to see what it was capable of. I was literally incapable of pulling my 1911 from it, and I am by no means a tiny, weak person. I adjusted it to where it required a decisive jerk for me to remove it, but didn't cause much issue with draw time. At my current level of tension, I have turned it upside down and shaken the living dogpiss out of it, and had no movement at all, let alone had it actually fall out.

    That being said, I do re-adjust it on a regular basis, because the pieces that grab the trigger are wearing a bit, just from the stainless trigger guard eating away at it from huge amounts of draw practice. I don't expect it to last forever, but hey, it's an $18 holster, so the fact that it lasted more than a month has shocked me.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    I always get a kick out of internet tough guys, always go to name calling and implied threats on the internet, and then claim they are such tough guys.

    Bunch of internet cowards is more like it.

    Always seems to be the same ones with very tender skin, and feelings.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 04-07-2014 at 02:54 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    One could lose their mind trying to impart their will on others.
    There is a word for that, it is called 'Liberal".

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    There is a word for that, it is called 'Liberal".
    I would agree with that, just like the politicians when they don't get their way they revert to demonizing instead of using common sense, and logic.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    I would agree with that, just like the politicians when they don't get their way they revert to demonizing instead of using common sense, and logic.
    That is the first time I have ever seen the words "Politicians", "Common sense", and "Logic" all in the same sentence.....lol

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    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    I would agree with that, just like the politicians when they don't get their way they revert to demonizing instead of using common sense, and logic.
    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    That is the first time I have ever seen the words "Politicians", "Common sense", and "Logic" all in the same sentence.....lol
    Not a first for me, though it is the most POLITE way I've heard it.

    @DaveT319: I OC in a Level 1 retention holster (friction only). Galco Concealable made of molded leather and a forward cant. Works fine for me, and ever since I hot waxed it with WalkingWolf's advice on the subject, it holds my 1911 as though it were made of Kydex (but without the scratches).
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

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    Campaign Veteran ATM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveT319 View Post
    ...Does anyone use such holsters for OC? If so, do you worry at all about someone snatching it?
    I generally OC in a Raven Phantom kydex holster with no extra retention mechanisms and I worry very little about someone attempting to snatch it.

    Not that I neglect training or practice in retention techniques, situational awareness, avoiding high crime areas, etc. I know it is possible, just extremely unlikely and among the least of my particular defensive worries.
    Last edited by ATM; 06-16-2014 at 11:00 AM. Reason: fix link

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    Regular Member DaveT319's Avatar
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    Ok, for those that use a friction holster, do you carry with the safety on or off (assuming your weapon of choice has an external safety)? I would think it would be best to leave it on, as if it IS snatched the BG might not be expecting that, and so it would give you a little extra time to react and be able to fight for the weapon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Young Man View Post
    Works fine for me, and ever since I hot waxed it with WalkingWolf's advice on the subject, it holds my 1911 as though it were made of Kydex (but without the scratches).
    What's this hot wax trick you're referring to?
    Last edited by DaveT319; 04-07-2014 at 10:56 PM.

  19. #19
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Honestly I believe you are worrying about gun snatches too much, there just is not any significant evidence to support it.

    As to the hot wax, leather can be heated and treated with melted wax. Once the wax sets it is strong and stiff like kydex.

    Search for cuir bouilli or leather armor.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 04-07-2014 at 11:03 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveT319 View Post
    Ok, for those that use a friction holster, do you carry with the safety on or off (assuming your weapon of choice has an external safety)? I would think it would be best to leave it on, as if it IS snatched the BG might not be expecting that, and so it would give you a little extra time to react and be able to fight for the weapon.


    What's this hot wax trick you're referring to?
    This is one such thread that deals with hot waxing leather, and my posts are on the second page of it. Good advice on there from several members with artistic/DIY inclinations. I kind of cheated though, as you will read.
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...-Make-your-own

    OT: Yes, I carry Condition 1, and I don't worry too much about a gun grab. I've thought about it, try to mitigate the possibility, practice for it, but go on OCing.

    You're worrying too much about a gun grab. Besides government or a bored/sadistic LEO (the kind that taint the image of all LEOs), you are not likely to encounter anyone who would try to disarm you by force.


    Add.:
    If you still have the OC jitters, I suggest you either attend an OC get-together or even organize one yourself in order to meet with other OCers in a public setting. You'll see how they carry, you can ask about their preferences (including the "mistakes" they made/bought when they first started), and you can see how normal and largely unnoticed you'll go.
    As it is, I can count on the fingers of my left hand the number of negative or quasi-negative encounters I've had since I started OCing about nine months ago. Most people don't notice it because they've succumbed to screen vision (phones), and you can position your holster or your forearm in such a way as to always know where your sidearm is.
    Last edited by Rusty Young Man; 04-08-2014 at 12:51 AM. Reason: Addendum
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke

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    Regular Member DaveT319's Avatar
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    I wouldn't say I'm "worrying" about it; more, it's a thought that has spawned further thoughts.

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    Regular Member Gallowmere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveT319 View Post
    Ok, for those that use a friction holster, do you carry with the safety on or off (assuming your weapon of choice has an external safety)? I would think it would be best to leave it on, as if it IS snatched the BG might not be expecting that, and so it would give you a little extra time to react and be able to fight for the weapon.
    I carry mine with the safety on, but uhm, yeah, it's a 1911. Cocked and locked, and all of that. A safety is of no hindrance to a person who trains their draw a lot, so there's little reason to have it disengaged anyway. Unless of course, it's some kind of really awkward design, and I can't even think of an example right off hand.
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  23. #23
    Regular Member Red Dawg's Avatar
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    I OC with a friction only leather holster with my revolvers. For sake of argument, I call it my "dress" set up..By pre-planning my day, and keeping SA, and having retention training/practice, a gun grab is even more unlikely than actually needing my baby for the real deal. I also have retention holsters for my 9, and got my "mother may I slip" when I find myself in places that feel a little cramped and like the extra level of retention...But I'm also the guy that will grab a snubbie and stick it my jacket pocket to go out for a bit, and not give a crap who knows or cares..
    That is what I do; what others do, or what advice is given is up to you. I would give as advice, preparation is the key, which involves all the things I stated..
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  24. #24
    Regular Member dorangolv's Avatar
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    OC retention.

    I use a Blackhawk thumbreak holster size 23 for my Kahr P45. It was actually made for 9mm and .40 cal so it was tight when I first bought it. It fits snug with no wobble now but it can be drawn quickly if needed.
    I ride horses sometimes and I like the idea that my .45 ACP pistol won't flop out into the horse dookie when galloping around the pasture.

  25. #25
    Activist Member golddigger14s's Avatar
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    For two of my guns I have Blackhawk CQC's for, which are level II. For my third gun which is a Kel-Tec PF9, I can't find a similar holster. For it I use a Fobus paddle holster which is a friction type. It kind of also "clicks" into the trigger guard. I personally feel very comfortable with it. The friction is so great that I'm sure I could react to the "mythical gun grab". There is no safety other than a heavy DAO trigger.
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