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OC with non-retention holster?

DaveT319

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2014
Messages
274
Location
Eugene, OR
I wouldn't say I'm "worrying" about it; more, it's a thought that has spawned further thoughts.
 

Gallowmere

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
210
Location
Richmond, VA
Ok, for those that use a friction holster, do you carry with the safety on or off (assuming your weapon of choice has an external safety)? I would think it would be best to leave it on, as if it IS snatched the BG might not be expecting that, and so it would give you a little extra time to react and be able to fight for the weapon.

I carry mine with the safety on, but uhm, yeah, it's a 1911. Cocked and locked, and all of that. A safety is of no hindrance to a person who trains their draw a lot, so there's little reason to have it disengaged anyway. Unless of course, it's some kind of really awkward design, and I can't even think of an example right off hand.
 

Red Dawg

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2010
Messages
399
Location
Eastern VA, with too many people
I OC with a friction only leather holster with my revolvers. For sake of argument, I call it my "dress" set up..By pre-planning my day, and keeping SA, and having retention training/practice, a gun grab is even more unlikely than actually needing my baby for the real deal. I also have retention holsters for my 9, and got my "mother may I slip" when I find myself in places that feel a little cramped and like the extra level of retention...But I'm also the guy that will grab a snubbie and stick it my jacket pocket to go out for a bit, and not give a crap who knows or cares..
That is what I do; what others do, or what advice is given is up to you. I would give as advice, preparation is the key, which involves all the things I stated..
 

dorangolv

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2014
Messages
20
Location
Las Vegas, NV.
OC retention.

I use a Blackhawk thumbreak holster size 23 for my Kahr P45. It was actually made for 9mm and .40 cal so it was tight when I first bought it. It fits snug with no wobble now but it can be drawn quickly if needed.
I ride horses sometimes and I like the idea that my .45 ACP pistol won't flop out into the horse dookie when galloping around the pasture.:eek::shocker::banghead:
 

golddigger14s

Activist Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
2,068
Location
Lawton, OK USA
For two of my guns I have Blackhawk CQC's for, which are level II. For my third gun which is a Kel-Tec PF9, I can't find a similar holster. For it I use a Fobus paddle holster which is a friction type. It kind of also "clicks" into the trigger guard. I personally feel very comfortable with it. The friction is so great that I'm sure I could react to the "mythical gun grab". There is no safety other than a heavy DAO trigger.
 

since9

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
6,964
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
I carry mine with the safety on, but uhm, yeah, it's a 1911. Cocked and locked, and all of that. A safety is of no hindrance to a person who trains their draw a lot, so there's little reason to have it disengaged anyway. Unless of course, it's some kind of really awkward design, and I can't even think of an example right off hand.

My CZ 85 B isn't a 1911, but it's of the same philosophy. From Jeff Cooper's conditions for his M1911:

Condition Four: Chamber empty, empty magazine, hammer down.
Condition Three: Chamber empty, full magazine in place, hammer down.
Condition Two: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer down.
Condition One: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety on.
Condition Zero: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety off.

Most people think Condition One is more "ready" than Condition Two, but they're wrong:
Condition One: Draw, flip safety off, fire.
Condition Two: Draw, fire.

As for "safeties," I don't know about your firearm, but mine has a firing pin interlock tied to a near-full pull of the trigger, which is protected by the holster. That's four physical safeties and a fifth between my ears:
- holster covers the trigger
- retention holster
- firing pin interlock
- 6.6 lb trigger pull
- brain engaged

Thus, I always carry it in condition two. That's also the condition required for most U.S. Armed Forces.

In fact, the ONLY condition in which I can even apply the safety is Condition One. After twenty-five years of experience carrying both OC and CC, and talking with a few experts, including a CZ rep, I'm convinced the purpose of Condition One is only after having drawn and fired your weapon. Mine doesn't have a decocking lever, so instead of the unsafe maneuver of manually decocking it in public, I would flip the safety on, holster it, and secure it until I could reach a safe environment in which to manually decock it.

Put simply, it makes no sense to carry "cocked and locked" when that requires three steps to fire as opposed to Condition Two, which requires one less step. No matter how practiced you are, Murphy's Law loves to rear its head during the worst times of need. The only way to beat it is to keep it simple.
 

DocWalker

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Messages
1,922
Location
Mountain Home, Idaho, USA
My CZ 85 B isn't a 1911, but it's of the same philosophy. From Jeff Cooper's conditions for his M1911:

Condition Four: Chamber empty, empty magazine, hammer down.
Condition Three: Chamber empty, full magazine in place, hammer down.
Condition Two: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer down.
Condition One: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety on.
Condition Zero: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety off.

Most people think Condition One is more "ready" than Condition Two, but they're wrong:
Condition One: Draw, flip safety off, fire.
Condition Two: Draw, fire.

As for "safeties," I don't know about your firearm, but mine has a firing pin interlock tied to a near-full pull of the trigger, which is protected by the holster. That's four physical safeties and a fifth between my ears:
- holster covers the trigger
- retention holster
- firing pin interlock
- 6.6 lb trigger pull
- brain engaged

Thus, I always carry it in condition two. That's also the condition required for most U.S. Armed Forces.

In fact, the ONLY condition in which I can even apply the safety is Condition One. After twenty-five years of experience carrying both OC and CC, and talking with a few experts, including a CZ rep, I'm convinced the purpose of Condition One is only after having drawn and fired your weapon. Mine doesn't have a decocking lever, so instead of the unsafe maneuver of manually decocking it in public, I would flip the safety on, holster it, and secure it until I could reach a safe environment in which to manually decock it.

Put simply, it makes no sense to carry "cocked and locked" when that requires three steps to fire as opposed to Condition Two, which requires one less step. No matter how practiced you are, Murphy's Law loves to rear its head during the worst times of need. The only way to beat it is to keep it simple.

Well I worked the gates at Mountain Home AFB after I retired from the military. Our 9mm Beretta's were loaded ready to fire and on fire, the requirement was to have the safe off. We did use tripple retention holsters.
 

DaveT319

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2014
Messages
274
Location
Eugene, OR
Most people think Condition One is more "ready" than Condition Two, but they're wrong:
Condition One: Draw, flip safety off, fire.
Condition Two: Draw, fire.

You're forgetting something, though: with a 1911, it's single action only. So in Condition Two, you'd have to cock the hammer first.

Now if you have a SA/DA weapon (like a Sig, for instance), what you said is correct. But since the Conditions were derived with the 1911 in mind, it should be noted that Conditions One and Two actually require the same number of steps to fire.
 

Chief Ten Beers

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2014
Messages
176
Location
Western Kentucky
I carry either a .45 ACP in a Fobus paddle holster, a Llama .380 ACP in a nylon holster, or a .45 SAA in a Buscadero holster. It's all personal preference.

100_7098.jpg100_4933.jpg
 

stealthyeliminator

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
3,100
Location
Texas
With the cz, how do you carry condition two without a decocker? Do you manually lower the hammer? I personally would either carry like a 1911, hammer cocked, safety on, if it had safety and no decocker or condition two if decocker equipped.
 

mikeyb

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2013
Messages
554
Location
Bothell
I would agree with that, just like the politicians when they don't get their way they revert to demonizing instead of using common sense, and logic.

That is the first time I have ever seen the words "Politicians", "Common sense", and "Logic" all in the same sentence.....lol

It makes so much sense when you liberally apply ellipses. :lol:
I... just like the politicians when they... get their way... using common sense, and logic.
 

hhofent

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
130
Location
Iowa
If carrying with a non retention holster, I would be much more worried about it falling out during a non violent emergency that involved running than being grabbed.

Even if your a big guy, youre probably gonna have to run somewhere before youd have to shoot something. Id hate to see a gun flopping around and possibly falling in such a situation.

Sent from an unspecified mobile phone using unspecified software.
 
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