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Thread: Man arrested for bringing handgun to middle school in Greenfield

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    Man arrested for bringing handgun to middle school in Greenfield

    "A 74-year-old Milwaukee man faces possible charges after bringing a handgun into Whitnall Middle School in Greenfield, Greenfield police said Friday. [ ... ] According to the release, a custodian said he saw the man with a holstered handgun on his hip seated at a table waiting to pick up a student. Surveillance video confirmed the custodian's account, and the man was arrested Friday afternoon.

    No additional information will be released pending a review by the Milwaukee County district attorney's office, police said"

    http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/m...in-greenfield-
    b99241083z1-253991401.html?page=1
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    Well be a interesting case to follow.
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    Will si
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    http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/m...253991401.html

    Link broken on iPad view, reposted.


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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    I thought that was a GFZ. How could this have happened?!
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

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    The guy obviously is not a responsible and informed firearms owner and that is how it happened.

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    Instructor was excused for good faith.
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    Page linked is dead ..

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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    I thought that was a GFZ. How could this have happened?!
    Stuff happens. I hope he is not a CCL. If he is a CCL holder, he should have known about GFSZs

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    Regular Member cirrusly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    Stuff happens. I hope he is not a CCL. If he is a CCL holder, he should have known about GFSZs
    Even if he knew about GFSZ he could've forgot he had the weapon on him. Unfortunately it's a simple yet very costly oversight. There is another article of a Wis. man earlier this year who forgot he was CCing until he emptied his pockets at the metal detectors / security checkpoint at his son's school. Charged with a felony.

    Hopefully these incidents will illustrate the charge does not fit the "crime" and why GFSZ need to be eliminated in Wis.
    I want to keep our founding fathers' visions and rights for this country pure. I implore you to do the same.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cirrusly View Post
    Even if he knew about GFSZ he could've forgot he had the weapon on him. Unfortunately it's a simple yet very costly oversight. There is another article of a Wis. man earlier this year who forgot he was CCing until he emptied his pockets at the metal detectors / security checkpoint at his son's school. Charged with a felony.

    Hopefully these incidents will illustrate the charge does not fit the "crime" and why GFSZ need to be eliminated in Wis.
    Sincere question.... how the f do you forget you have a gun on you? Regardless of shape size method of carry.

    "Here kids I think I have some change in my pocket for candy, oh whoops that's my gun".

    If you forget its there how are you going to use it to defend yourself?

    "Oh crap, bad guy! Do I have my gun today? Which pocket? Let me just fumble around and pat my pockets see if I remembered to bring it..... bam".

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    Regular Member cirrusly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Sincere question.... how the f do you forget you have a gun on you? Regardless of shape size method of carry.

    "Here kids I think I have some change in my pocket for candy, oh whoops that's my gun".

    If you forget its there how are you going to use it to defend yourself?

    "Oh crap, bad guy! Do I have my gun today? Which pocket? Let me just fumble around and pat my pockets see if I remembered to bring it..... bam".

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    It does happen. In fact, misplaced and forgotten about handguns happen to be a hot theme right now in Wisconsin...

    security montiors saw him suddenly reach for his right hip, then grab items he had already taken from his pockets and quickly exit the building.
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...-gun-to-school
    A volunteer teacher at the church later called looking for her weapon, which she said she had set down in the bathroom and accidentally left behind.
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...hurch-bathroom
    I want to keep our founding fathers' visions and rights for this country pure. I implore you to do the same.

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    Screw these GFZ ... Not Guilty would be my verdict...

    Screw all these stupid laws.

    Recommend all here use their jurist votes to vote No on all criminal defendants until all gun laws are repealed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Sincere question.... how the f do you forget you have a gun on you? Regardless of shape size method of carry.

    "Here kids I think I have some change in my pocket for candy, oh whoops that's my gun".

    If you forget its there how are you going to use it to defend yourself?

    "Oh crap, bad guy! Do I have my gun today? Which pocket? Let me just fumble around and pat my pockets see if I remembered to bring it..... bam".

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    Sincere answer... it's often not that a person forgets they have a gun on them (though it is commonly stated that way), rather that they simply forget to disarm before crossing some imaginary legal boundary into a GFZ.

    The "...whoops that's my gun" moment is not the realization that your gun is there in your pocket (right where it always is), it's the realization that whoops, I forgot to leave it somewhere else (where the legislators decided it should be).

    If you need it to defend yourself it will be right there, where you always carry it - where it belongs. Forgetting to disarm wouldn't suddenly cause confusion as to whether it's there in it's normal spot.

    Imagine if they prohibited wallets or car keys or pocket change from certain zones - are you sure you'd always remember to remove those objects before you stepped across the imaginary line? For many folks, their gun is not that different ...hardly thought of until it's needed.

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    I understand the jury nullification principle, but there is one thing that bothers me about it. I have never seen a jury empaneled that wasn't administered a sworn oath to try the case based on the evidence presented from the stand and the law as presented by the judge. Your particular state may vary on the exact wording.

    To do jury nullification you have to take an oath to do one thing when your intent is to do something else.

    Does that bother anyone?

    We find it outrageous that police swear to tell the truth and then lie, and rightfully so. Is it then OK for a juror to say one thing when they intend to do another?
    Last edited by MrOverlay; 04-07-2014 at 09:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOverlay View Post
    I understand the jury nullification principle, but there is one thing that bothers me about it. I have never seen a jury empaneled that wasn't administered a sworn oath to try the case based on the evidence presented from the stand and the law as presented by the judge. Your particular state may vary on the exact wording.

    To do jury nullification you have to take an oath to do one thing when your intent is to do something else.

    Does that bother anyone?

    We find it outrageous that police swear to tell the truth and then lie, and rightfully so. Is it then OK for a juror to say one thing when they intend to do another?
    Yes, juries take oaths but courts (federal and state) have acknowledged a jurist right to nullify and also to discourage it through the oath.

    Does it bother me to use the jury box as a political tool? No. It has been used that way time and time again and successfully.

    Ex: prohibition ... only 60% conviction rate, making liquor laws weak and aided in the repeal
    colonists refused to convict others for violating the king's law too
    juries refused to convict people harboring slaves
    etc. jury nullification has a rich history

    A jurist does not have to say anything about their deliberation ... and a jurist will never be asked a question regarding jury nullification from any lawyer (they are supposed to act as if it does not exist).

    The question is: what are you willing to do to secure your and your descendents RKBA?

    Jury nullification seems tame compared to other actions.

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    Well I have a long list of protecting the RKBA over decades.

    As to the jury nullification issue, to each his own, but I view oaths that I take very seriously.

    A man gives his word, it should stand for something.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOverlay View Post
    I understand the jury nullification principle, but there is one thing that bothers me about it. I have never seen a jury empaneled that wasn't administered a sworn oath to try the case based on the evidence presented from the stand and the law as presented by the judge. Your particular state may vary on the exact wording.

    To do jury nullification you have to take an oath to do one thing when your intent is to do something else.

    Does that bother anyone?

    We find it outrageous that police swear to tell the truth and then lie, and rightfully so. Is it then OK for a juror to say one thing when they intend to do another?
    Does not bother me one bit.

    It does not erase our right to judge the law.

    I think of it this way it isn't a "law" if it doesn't fit in with natural law or theories of justice, or common law (victim, actus reus, mens rea). It is a simple rule made up by the state, and the jury is supposed to be a check on those, judges and state oaths to hinder that are null and void. Otherwise why even have a jury if the accused are only to be judged by the state rules?
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 04-08-2014 at 10:08 AM.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Sincere question.... how the f do you forget you have a gun on you? Regardless of shape size method of carry.

    "Here kids I think I have some change in my pocket for candy, oh whoops that's my gun".

    If you forget its there how are you going to use it to defend yourself?

    "Oh crap, bad guy! Do I have my gun today? Which pocket? Let me just fumble around and pat my pockets see if I remembered to bring it..... bam".

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    Very true. Maybe Protias, he had a teeny weeny gun holstered. So he forgot it. Now if it was a 45ACP and he forgot that it was holstered, then the system needs to look into his presence of mind and other cognitive issues. After all he is 74 and may forget he has a holstered gun. Just thinking... Need to wait for the details to come out. He may be mentally fit as a 20 yr old and just forgot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOverlay View Post
    Well I have a long list of protecting the RKBA over decades.

    As to the jury nullification issue, to each his own, but I view oaths that I take very seriously.

    A man gives his word, it should stand for something.
    Its an oath forced upon you ... it does not mean that you cannot nullify...court after court has stated this.

    So you should take oaths seriously but also understand the scope of the oath. The jurist oath is only to discourage nullification not to make it unavailable. Understand?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ATM View Post
    Sincere answer... it's often not that a person forgets they have a gun on them (though it is commonly stated that way), rather that they simply forget to disarm before crossing some imaginary legal boundary into a GFZ.

    The "...whoops that's my gun" moment is not the realization that your gun is there in your pocket (right where it always is), it's the realization that whoops, I forgot to leave it somewhere else (where the legislators decided it should be).

    If you need it to defend yourself it will be right there, where you always carry it - where it belongs. Forgetting to disarm wouldn't suddenly cause confusion as to whether it's there in it's normal spot.

    Imagine if they prohibited wallets or car keys or pocket change from certain zones - are you sure you'd always remember to remove those objects before you stepped across the imaginary line? For many folks, their gun is not that different ...hardly thought of until it's needed.
    I've almost driven on base before while OC'ing(a huge no-no). We were out running some errands and my wife wanted to go to the commissary, as we turned I remembered my pistol was on my hip. We did a u-turn before we got to the gate.

    If you carry all the time, sometimes you'll forget not to take it somewhere.
    What I told my wife when she said my steel Baby Eagle .45 was heavy, "Heavy is good, heavy is reliable, if it doesn't work you could always hit him with it."-Boris the Blade

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Its an oath forced upon you ... it does not mean that you cannot nullify...court after court has stated this.

    So you should take oaths seriously but also understand the scope of the oath. The jurist oath is only to discourage nullification not to make it unavailable. Understand?
    I understand all too well, unfortunately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOverlay View Post
    I understand all too well, unfortunately.
    Well, is there a law that no matter how a person violated it that you would find not guilty because the law is that stupid? There are lots of stupid laws...

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    My approach would be to tell the presiding judge that I could not fairly hear the case because of my beliefs regarding the law. If I can not fairly hear the case, I can not serve on a jury.
    Last edited by MrOverlay; 04-09-2014 at 10:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOverlay View Post
    My approach would be to tell the presiding judge that I could not fairly hear the case because of my beliefs regarding the law. If I can not fairly hear the case, I can not serve on a jury.
    And then you would be doing a disservice to right of jury. Unless of course your belief is that man made positive law reigns supreme.....then please stay off the jury.....
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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