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Thread: 7 months and still no resolution for John Greer's suspected murder by Fairfax police

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    Arrow 7 months and still no resolution for John Geer's suspected murder by Fairfax police

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...lice-shooting/
    The death of John Geer: Now seven months of silence on Fairfax police shooting
    The clock keeps ticking, and that’s about the only sound emanating from the investigation into the death of John Geer. Geer, 46, was unarmed when he was shot to death by a Fairfax County police officer on Aug. 29. It has now been seven months and there is still no explanation from the Fairfax police, prosecutors or federal investigators about how and why this happened, and whether or not it was legally justifiable.

    Geer was standing in the doorway of his home in Springfield, speaking to an officer who had his service weapon drawn. Geer’s girlfriend and two daughters had fled the home. Geer was distraught, had thrown his girlfriend’s clothes out of the house and had been drinking, witnesses have told The Post, and there was a gun in his townhouse on Pebble Brook Court. But he did not have the gun on him, a fact which was clearly visible as he stood with his hands high on a door frame, dressed in shorts. As Geer stood speaking to the still unnamed officer, the officer fired one shot into Geer’s chest, witnesses told The Post. Geer staggered back into the house and closed the door. Police waited another hour before going in, where they found Geer dead.

    The unanswered questions are the same as they were on Aug. 29, as is the silence from Official Fairfax. Why did the police create a “barricade situation” with one man alone in a townhouse? Why did the officer shoot? And why did the police take so long to render aid to a man they knew had been shot in the chest at close range?
    ...
    Original reports justified the heavy tactical response because the offended, breaking-up girlfriend who called police told them that he owned a firearm.

    Just wanted to remind people that this was still an unresolved - in my opinion - murder.
    Last edited by ChristCrusader; 12-08-2014 at 04:49 PM.
    *I am not a lawyer. Nothing from me shall be construed as a magic cloak of legal advice. It's ultimately your tucas that's on the line. Keep examining the law anyway. The gov't, made up of people like us, is supposed to work for us, not against us. Let's find, correct, and avoid the wrongs before they're actively used against us, or we become innocently trapped by them. We're to be the masters. Let's vigilantly keep tabs on our servants who seek to rule us.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Words have meaning. And posts have their place.

    Do you really mean "suspected"? Or was the word you were searching for "alleged"?

    And since "John Geer. Geer, 46, was unarmed when he was shot ...." I fail to see what this has to do with open carry.

    stay safe.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Do you really mean "suspected"? Or was the word you were searching for "alleged"?

    And since "John Geer. Geer, 46, was unarmed when he was shot ...." I fail to see what this has to do with open carry.

    stay safe.
    Indeed words have meaning, as does omitting them.

    Generally if a post/thread is about a shooting or use of gun in a purported crime it has been deemed acceptable. Care must be exercised to avoid LEO bashing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Do you really mean "suspected"? Or was the word you were searching for "alleged"?

    And since "John Geer. Geer, 46, was unarmed when he was shot ...." I fail to see what this has to do with open carry.

    stay safe.
    I would say neither suspected nor alleged was appropriate. Should probably be just "homicide" instead v of "suspected murder"... At least in most states that would be the correct term. Even in a completely justified self-defense or police shooting it is still legally homicide in most states, so no need to qualify it with "alleged".

    However, you could also go with "alleged self-defense homicide", or something similar instead, which I believe would get the point across more accurately. In that case the alleged part refers to self-defense, and not the homicide itself, which is not disputed by anyone and is not alleged.

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    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    Is it "bashing" ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Do you really mean "suspected"? Or was the word you were searching for "alleged"?

    And since "John Geer. Geer, 46, was unarmed when he was shot ...." I fail to see what this has to do with open carry.

    stay safe.
    Indeed words have meaning, as does omitting them.

    Generally if a post/thread is about a shooting or use of gun in a purported crime it has been deemed acceptable. Care must be exercised to avoid LEO bashing.
    Going solely from the information in the quote from the OP,

    if you or I had pulled the trigger on an unarmed man wearing shorts and standing with his hands on a door frame of his own home and then not done anything to find out about his condition for a whole hour, what would we be charged with?

    When you've had six of them hammering on your door in the middle of the night unexpectedly, well, every now and then, some of them do deserve bashing.
    Last edited by scouser; 04-05-2014 at 09:59 PM.

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    Regular Member Liberty-or-Death's Avatar
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    μολών λαβέ
    Last edited by Liberty-or-Death; 04-08-2014 at 10:16 PM.
    Be active.

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    Perhaps the surge of awareness and interest of questionable shootings/killings by police will lift John Geer's killing towards resolution, and dare I hope - accountability?!

    Last edited by ChristCrusader; 12-08-2014 at 04:47 PM.
    *I am not a lawyer. Nothing from me shall be construed as a magic cloak of legal advice. It's ultimately your tucas that's on the line. Keep examining the law anyway. The gov't, made up of people like us, is supposed to work for us, not against us. Let's find, correct, and avoid the wrongs before they're actively used against us, or we become innocently trapped by them. We're to be the masters. Let's vigilantly keep tabs on our servants who seek to rule us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    <snip>Care must be exercised to avoid LEO bashing.
    Care eh? hmmmmm

    I'm sure if someone filed a records request they would respond that the investigation is ongoing (or maybe not).
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 12-08-2014 at 04:29 PM.

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    I'm wondering if there aren't inherent conflicts of interest gumming up the works - Fairfax's attorneys representing the interests of Fairfax, so they can't simultaneously prosecute a Fairfax cop for wrongdoing because it would result in Fairfax's expensive liabilities. Likewise, those Fairfax attorneys are stonewalling on releasing evidences to the Feds that might damage their client's (Fairfax) position.

    How to expect gov't to investigate and convict itself?!

    Just to reiterate, the gun owner tie-in is that the over-reaction with unnecessarily applied lethal force was a response to the knowledge that Geer merely owned a gun and kept it in the house.
    A bad precedent for all gun owners to let stand, that swat teams with drawn guns and helicopters be the correct measure of response to an interaction with a gun owner, even though the owner doesn't use or display a firearm leading up to or during the interaction.
    Last edited by ChristCrusader; 12-08-2014 at 05:30 PM.
    *I am not a lawyer. Nothing from me shall be construed as a magic cloak of legal advice. It's ultimately your tucas that's on the line. Keep examining the law anyway. The gov't, made up of people like us, is supposed to work for us, not against us. Let's find, correct, and avoid the wrongs before they're actively used against us, or we become innocently trapped by them. We're to be the masters. Let's vigilantly keep tabs on our servants who seek to rule us.

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    The case of John Geer should worry everyone in the county of Fairfax, especially those who own firearms.

    Allow me to summarize the facts as they are publicly available at this time:
    * No one from the Fairfax government has ever alleged Geer committed any crime when his now-estranged girlfriend called the police for help, or after the police arrived.
    * John Geer's ex-girlfriend informed the police dispatch that Geer owned firearms. It is not clear under what conditions that information was conveyed.
    * When police confronted John Geer on-scene, Geer's ex-girlfriend and daughters were safely in a neighbor's home. John Geer was alone in his home, standing unarmed at his threshold. John's hands up, resting on his glass storm door for 50 minutes. Video evidence of much (if not all) of the events exists. All of this happened in broad daylight.
    * In attendance on-scene was: Geer's best friend, his father, his ex-girlfriend, his two daughters, and dozens of neighbors.
    * Several police confronted Geer. What they said to him and his replies are not known by anyone outside of the FCPD.
    * Police on-scene possessed a ballistic shield (pictured before the shooting resting on a tree). At least two officers had their sidearms drawn, others kept their pistols holstered.
    * One Fairfax police officer fired one shot at John Geer. That shot struck Geer's torso. No other officers felt the need to follow up the shot.
    * Geer then closed his door and was left to bleed out for an hour.
    * During that hour, Geer's father pleaded with the officers to go provide emergency aid to his son and failing that, to be allowed to go in to help Geer himself. Those pleas were rejected.
    * After allowing Mr. Geer to bleed out, FCPD rolled in an armored Bearcat with a turret-mounted battering ram. The police used this vehicle to knock down the door Geer closed after which the SWAT team entered the home to find John Geer dead.
    * It has now been over 16 months without any word explaining these events or updating the progress of this investigation.
    * The FCPD has not release the names of any officers on-scene.
    * John Geer's family did not give any interviews to the media for the better part of a year and have never called for protests of John's killing and the subsequent stonewalling by the FCPD.
    * The Geer family filed suit one-year after his killing.

    The Fairfax County PD has managed to refrain from leaking any substantive information about the case. The only two leaks to the media to-date could be telling though: "Several law enforcement sources have indicated to me that the officer involved in the case may have had undisclosed issues of his own, that Morrogh (Fairfax County Commonwealth's Attorney) sought his personnel files and that the police refused to hand it over. Morrogh then turned to the feds to possibly subpoena the file, or determine whether it was even relevant. In addition, the officer who did not fire his weapon while standing next to the shooter may have prior perjury issues, one source said."
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...-of-john-geer/

    If there continues to be no accountability from the FCPD, then how can any of us trust that we will be treated fairly in an encounter with Fairfax police officers?

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    Hands up! Don't shoot!

    Al Sharkton where are you?

    Jessie Jacka** where are you?

    Eric Holdout where are you?
    Last edited by mobeewan; 12-22-2014 at 12:22 AM.
    Revelation 1911 - And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

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    Anyone done a records request? Seems like any criminal investigation is done. Simply because it might cause a civil issue is not sufficient to withhold records.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Anyone done a records request? Seems like any criminal investigation is done. Simply because it might cause a civil issue is not sufficient to withhold records.
    There is an attorney involved - they are apparently following his instructions.

    Please do not suggest pro se, as most are not equiped to travel this route.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    There is an attorney involved - they are apparently following his instructions.

    Please do not suggest pro se, as most are not equiped to travel this route.
    Now how are people ever going to be equipped ? By sitting on the sidelines all the time?

    File a request and see if they will allow you access to the records. What's hard about that. I think you underestimate folks.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Now how are people ever going to be equipped ? By sitting on the sidelines all the time?

    File a request and see if they will allow you access to the records. What's hard about that. I think you underestimate folks.
    Really? Oh well so much for some opinions, especially when given in a convoluted manner and ignoring some details.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Fairfax judge orders release of information

    A Fairfax county judge has ordered the Fairfax County Police to release a substantial amount of information in this case. A ruling from the hearing on December 19 was not expected until some time in January, but the judge issued a 12 page order on Monday, December 22. Nearly all of the information related to the case has been ordered released, including the names of all of the officers involved. The county may, however, redact addresses, phone numbers and other personal information. Information related to an internal affairs investigation does not have to be released. In all, 77 requested sets of data were ordered released, 11 withheld and 4 were not ruled upon.

    http://wtop.com/fairfax-county/2014/...lice-shooting/

    This is a strange case. From other articles, it looks like the police have made no assessment as to whether the shooting was justified and didn't even start an internal affairs review until a lawsuit was filed by the long-time companion of Mr. Geer, about 1 year after the fatal shooting. Commonwealth Attorney for the county recused himself, citing unspecified "conflict of interest", and punted the case to the feds, yet the county refused to release any information to the feds related to the case. Its now going on 18 months and there is no official information out there as to what happened, what was said by Mr. Geer and the officers, or why the unarmed Mr. Geer was fatally shot. Perhaps some answers will now be forthcoming. I'm certainly going to be following this case closely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Really? Oh well so much for some opinions, especially when given in a convoluted manner and ignoring some details.
    http://leg1.state.va.us/000/cod/TOC0...0000000000.HTM

    all right there Grape ... does not require a Harvard education...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Really? Oh well so much for some opinions, especially when given in a convoluted manner and ignoring some details.
    Some people are just too dumb to understand. Even when EVERYONE is laughing AT them. ;>)

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by va_tazdad View Post
    Some people are just too dumb to understand. Even when EVERYONE is laughing AT them. ;>)
    If David had bothered to read his own cites, he'd see where the PD had tremendous latitude to exclude records involved in a criminal investigation...and they almost always do. There don't have to be charges filed, only an investigation.....

    But even beyond that, the Freedom of Information Commission has issued opinions in this many times and made recommendations to the General Assembly to make law enforcement more transparent. So far, the Police Lobby has won out.

    There is really no incentive for them to comply since there are no penalties for refusing other than a thousand dollar fine that is optional and it's almost never ordered by the judge.

    In this case it appears that they have gone too far, but getting to this point has cost thousands in legal fees and a lot of time and of course, the records still aren't available.

    But then again, I may be wrong so David, why don't you request the records and post them. Maybe people will stop snickering at you then.

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    Protest scheduled

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/just...7208318564177/
    Justice for John Geer Protest
    Thursday, January 8, 2015 at 10:00am
    Fairfax County Government Judicial Center 4110 Chain Bridge Rd, Fairfax, Virginia 22030

    I'm planning on open carrying at this, Lord willing.
    The event organizers have expressed that they are supporters of all forms of carry, so no drama/objections anticipated from them.

    Aside from the Justice for John issue, and accountability from the gov't over killing a man, I see this as a gun rights issue, since the over reaction with choppers, snipers, swat team, MRAP, and officers making demands with drawn guns from his front lawn were not because he had thrown stuff of hers onto the front lawn (though he had), and not because he had harmed or threatened to harm anyone (because he hadn't), but because they were told that he owned a gun and kept it in his home. That's the wrong attitude, and the same attitude that they use to justify no-knock warrants served by SWAT teams in the wee hours of the morning, children, rights, pets and your life bedamned.

    So, I invite anyone else to the protest as well, for any of the myriad of worthy reasons, and to feel welcomed to carry as you wish while doing so.

    Always have the right, of course, but for this event, I expect to also be welcomed
    Last edited by ChristCrusader; 12-23-2014 at 09:37 AM.
    *I am not a lawyer. Nothing from me shall be construed as a magic cloak of legal advice. It's ultimately your tucas that's on the line. Keep examining the law anyway. The gov't, made up of people like us, is supposed to work for us, not against us. Let's find, correct, and avoid the wrongs before they're actively used against us, or we become innocently trapped by them. We're to be the masters. Let's vigilantly keep tabs on our servants who seek to rule us.

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    WaPo: Judge's Order

    Here it is:

    Judge’s order requiring information release in Geer case

    Judge orders Fairfax County to disclose information in John Geer police shooting
    Just three days after a hearing on the Geer family’s request for information in their civil suit against Fairfax Police Chief Edwin C. Roessler Jr., Judge Randy I. Bellows issued a 12-page ruling that threatens to end nearly 16 months of silence by Fairfax authorities concerning the death of John Geer. The judge did so, in large part, by noting that the case is now being handled by federal authorities, who did not object to any of the Geer family’s requests and who expressly stated publicly that they had not instructed Fairfax to refrain from disclosing information about the case. The judge’s order redacts the home addresses, phone numbers and identifying data of the law enforcement and civilian witnesses.

    ...

    Mike Lieberman, lawyer for the Geer family, said he was “gratified that the judge has finally ended the family’s long nightmare of not knowing what happened to their son.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    <snip>
    But then again, I may be wrong so David, why don't you request the records and post them. Maybe people will stop snickering at you then.
    I have literally tens of thousands of records and continue to seek our gov't corruption exposed in records.

    My latest one that will make you chuckle? I asked for Mike Lawlor's (commie in CT-works for goverfart-Mike Vandenburg loves this guy) personal email account emails used for state business (and specifically excluded any state email account records) ... what reply did I get? We are seeking agency records ...(see attachment). rofl

    I politely shot the guy back an email telling him I was seeking his personal email accounts' emails, not state or agency account emails.

    This guy must want me visiting him in the early hours at his house.

    So, I'm pretty busy with gathering records already; be a dear and handle the request. thx
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 12-23-2014 at 06:31 PM.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Looks like the cops name is Torres and now the PD is saying the fellow had a loaded AND HOLSTERED handgun NEARBY...
    Sixteen months after a Fairfax County police officer shot and killed a Springfield man, officials for the first time Monday identified the officer as Adam D. Torres, and made a new claim that the man had a loaded gun nearby and threatened to use it. Fairfax police declined to answer any questions about the statement or clarify when Geer displayed or threatened to use a gun. The handgun found inside the house was loaded and holstered, the statement said. Fairfax officials did not notify Geer’s family or their lawyers that they planned to release the officer’s name and new details about the case, Lieberman said.
    Washington Post
    Last edited by peter nap; 01-06-2015 at 08:52 AM.

  24. #24
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    Well there ya go, information released. All better now...no?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Well there ya go, information released. All better now...no?
    No, not yet. Still waiting for details that will give a good view of what transpired.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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