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Thread: Does shoulder-firing an AR pistol equipped with a pistol brace make it an SBR?

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    Administrator John Pierce's Avatar
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    Does shoulder-firing an AR pistol equipped with a pistol brace make it an SBR?

    It is an undisputed fact that putting a shoulder stock on an AR pistol will result in a short-barreled rifle (SBR) subject to regulation under the National Firearms Act (NFA).

    However, Sig Sauer sells a stabilizing brace that looks an awful lot like a shoulder stock but is advertised as “ATF Approved.”

    What does that mean? In simple terms, it just means that the ATF’s Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) has determined that it should not be classified as a shoulder-stock.

    But why? Is it a question of ‘intended’ use? As the ad from Sig Sauer demonstrates, it is not intended to be a shoulder stock. Rather, it is intended to function by strapping the AR pistol to your wrist.

    But it sure does look like a shoulder stock doesn’t it?

    Excerpt ... Read more at The Law Office of John Pierce, Esq.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Pierce View Post
    But why? Is it a question of ‘intended’ use?
    That's exactly why, yes. Neither the manufacturer nor the BATF are responsible for anyone using the item in a way it was not intended to be used.

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    Regular Member Kopis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Pierce View Post
    It is an undisputed fact that putting a shoulder stock on an AR pistol will result in a short-barreled rifle (SBR) subject to regulation under the National Firearms Act (NFA).

    .
    Where did you get this "undisputed fact" that should firing an AR pistol will cause it to be reclassified as an SBR? The ATF recently issued a statement on it as a matter of fact.

    http://d2kyvj3kvr3yw0.cloudfront.net...istol-memo.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kopis View Post
    Where did you get this "undisputed fact" that should firing an AR pistol will cause it to be reclassified as an SBR? The ATF recently issued a statement on it as a matter of fact.

    http://d2kyvj3kvr3yw0.cloudfront.net...istol-memo.pdf
    Of course...the characteristics of the gun is what classifies it, not the end user's operation of the gun.

    I don't know why so much energy is spent on characterizing a gun. A gun is a gun. We can have any gun we want; the gov't just wants to limit this right by characterizing them into small subgroups so that politicians can say "see, we are only limiting your right to own this subgroup-you can still own others" until only one subgroup is left to be able to own-the "pea shooter".

    After all, the most dangerous gun on the market place should not be available to citizens. And there will always be a "most dangerous gun".

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kopis View Post
    Where did you get this "undisputed fact" that should firing an AR pistol will cause it to be reclassified as an SBR? The ATF recently issued a statement on it as a matter of fact.

    http://d2kyvj3kvr3yw0.cloudfront.net...istol-memo.pdf
    Go back and read what he wrote again. You got it wrong the first time.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Broom handle.....except it is pointing the wrong way.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Going by the ATF, a piece of parachute cord is a machine gun, a pistol with a fore grip is way more dangerous and requires registration unless it only goes half way like an AFG, an oil filter on the end of a gun is a sound suppressor only if you shoot it, and these aren't SBRs.

    It is really astounding how insane it all is.
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    Going by the ATF, a piece of parachute cord is a machine gun, a pistol with a fore grip is way more dangerous and requires registration unless it only goes half way like an AFG, an oil filter on the end of a gun is a sound suppressor only if you shoot it, and these aren't SBRs.

    It is really astounding how insane it all is.
    That's inevitably what happens when you try to legislate non-aggressive behavior.

    Juries don't need much instruction when it's a murder charge. In fact, as the common law indicates, they don't need legislation at all for most real crimes.

    It's only when you begin to use the law to micromanage behavior that you start needing to make these arbitrary and meaningless distinctions.

    The more "the law" becomes associated with "legislation", i.e. the handiwork of professional politician-lawyers, the less value I see in "the law".

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Putting a pistol to your shoulder and shooting it makes it a short barreled rifle the same was as
    putting your finger on the trigger of a semi-auto and bump-firing it makes it an machine gun.

    Putting something designed to be a shoulder stock on a pistol makes it a short barreled rifle the same way as
    putting something designed to make a rifle full-auto makes it a machine gun.

    In this case we can compare and contrast the design of an arm brace or TacCon 3MR trigger to a MOE buttstock and M2 conversion parts for an M1 carbine.

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    I build Ars. I build a bunch of them. Every build I do starts as a pistol. You all know that a pistol can later become a rifle and then be restored to pistol. Build a rifle and it will always be a rifle and cannot become shorter without a stamp.

    I have a letter in to the batf asking "permission" to use a foam cover on the buffer of my pistols. The neoprene covers are insufficient to protect the tube. I am asking if I can use a "pool noodle" to cover the tube. Now if that "noodle gun" is fired from the shoulder, it will still be a pistol.

    I added that letter to my atf file. Below is an older one as the question has been asked before.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Regular Member Kopis's Avatar
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    MSG Laigaie, good letter thanks for posting that.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Just as a thought exercise...

    If firing a pistol from the shoulder were to convert said pistol into an SBR, wouldn't that mean that hand firing a rifle without shouldering it meant that one had made a pistol converted from a rifle?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Just as a thought exercise...

    If firing a pistol from the shoulder were to convert said pistol into an SBR, wouldn't that mean that hand firing a rifle without shouldering it meant that one had made a pistol converted from a rifle?
    If I never fire it, is it a gun at all?

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    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    I build Ars. I build a bunch of them. Every build I do starts as a pistol. You all know that a pistol can later become a rifle and then be restored to pistol. Build a rifle and it will always be a rifle and cannot become shorter without a stamp.

    I have a letter in to the batf asking "permission" to use a foam cover on the buffer of my pistols. The neoprene covers are insufficient to protect the tube. I am asking if I can use a "pool noodle" to cover the tube. Now if that "noodle gun" is fired from the shoulder, it will still be a pistol.

    I added that letter to my atf file. Below is an older one as the question has been asked before.
    But the letter only mentioned placing the upper of your rifle onto the pistol lower... would adding a stock to the mix warrant a visit from the Feds?
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    part one...If firing a pistol from the shoulder were to convert said pistol into an SBR,

    part two...wouldn't that mean that hand firing a rifle without shouldering it meant that one had made a pistol converted from a rifle?
    part one... A pistol fired from the shoulder, as awkward as that sounds, is still a pistol. No hardware was modified to make it a rifle.

    part two... Firing a rifle offhand does not make it a pistol, again no hardware mods.

    All of my "pistol" ARs have a specific buffer tube that does not "allow" a buttstock to be used properly. A LEO would look for this feature if "inspecting" your weapon. A rifle, even if you lie on your back and pull the trigger with your toe, is still a rifle. You are using a rifle as a pistol, not physically re-configuring it. It is all convoluted batfSpeak. You have to read it a couple of times and then discuss it with someone else to understand it.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Regular Member hhofent's Avatar
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    No, no. when a gun is manufactured, it exists in a superposition where it is both a rifle and a pistol, only when viewed by a fed, does it become one or the other.

    Sent from my SCH-R680 using Tapatalk 2

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hhofent View Post
    No, no. when a gun is manufactured, it exists in a superposition where it is both a rifle and a pistol, only when viewed by a fed, does it become one or the other.

    Sent from my SCH-R680 using Tapatalk 2
    On the bold...I am not a manufacturer, I do not have that license. I am a builder. When I order lowers through an FFL(complete) they are not pistols, they are not rifles, they come to me listed as "other". All the other builds are made from 80%s and have NO markings roll marks or serial numbers. I determine the original build status of rifle/pistol.

    on the underlined....A tool is what it is. I build within atf guidelines. Feds never see my weapons.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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