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Thread: Slavery is bad, okay What is slavery then?

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Slavery is bad, okay What is slavery then?

    For questions about the federal taxes please click here watch the linked videos and then ask.

    But, slavery, isn't that when someone else owns the fruits of your labor?

    Is it when someone else owns your body? (if they own your body then they own your labor)

    What would you do if you owned (a) slave(s) (how would you care for them)?

    What is the percentage of your labors that have to be owned by someone else before it's slavery?

    Do slaves have natural rights or granted (civil)"rights?"

    Can slaves carry weapons (guns) or do they need the permission of their master (the state)?
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Jesus said:

    "Give back to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's."

    Meaning that taxes are money you owe already.

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Jesus said:

    "Give back to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's."

    Meaning that taxes are money you owe already.
    You're one of those.

    Follow the law. Throw Caesar's law into his face.

    Jesus, if he was real, demanded that Caesar follow his own laws. Then in the story he paid the annual tax with money taken from one of Caesar's gods (the mouth of the fish will have two coins.....).

    If your labors can be taxed then you have no right to the fruits of your labors and thus you don't own them.
    Last edited by Freedom1Man; 04-08-2014 at 12:35 PM.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    If you cannot be bought or sold against your will, then you are not a slave. Comparing having to pay taxes as part of being a responsible citizen to being a real slave is a bit of a stretch.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    You're one of those.

    Follow the law. Throw Caesar's law into his face.

    Jesus, if he was real, demanded that Caesar follow his own laws. Then in the story he paid the annual tax with money taken from one of Caesar's gods (the mouth of the fish will have two coins.....).

    If your labors can be taxed then you have no right to the fruits of your labors and thus you don't own them.
    You're one of those.

    Quote Originally Posted by beebobby View Post
    If you cannot be bought or sold against your will, then you are not a slave. Comparing having to pay taxes as part of being a responsible citizen to being a real slave is a bit of a stretch.
    +1
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebobby View Post
    If you cannot be bought or sold against your will, then you are not a slave.
    Oh, well, you're just solved everything, haven't you?

    What is the result of buying and selling? It is, of course, a transfer of ownership.

    So, although you've tried to dodge the fact, slavery is not "being able to be bought or sold against your will", but the condition of being owned.

    Now, define ownership. (Hint: Your definition must imply the ability to be bought and sold, but it cannot consist of this alone, as I can own things I didn't buy and will never sell.)

    ETA: As it happens, I agree that having to pay taxes ≠ slavery (I might argue about conscription), but incomplete reasoning such as this cannot be the justification for that conclusion.
    Last edited by marshaul; 04-08-2014 at 12:54 PM.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Last I checked.... slaves weren't allowed to leave the plantation.

    Last I checked we can walk across the border for free of charge. Or get crazy and buy a plane/boat ticket and go across the pond. Rescind your citizenship and be tax free.

    So where's the slavery again?

    Sounds more like "if you choose to live here you must pay x amount rent".

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Last I checked.... slaves weren't allowed to leave the plantation.

    Last I checked we can walk across the border for free of charge. Or get crazy and buy a plane/boat ticket and go across the pond. Rescind your citizenship and be tax free.

    So where's the slavery again?

    Sounds more like "if you choose to live here you must pay x amount rent".
    You're getting closer. But, in fact, whether or not a given slave (or perhaps the entirety of a given owner's chattel) would be permitted to leave the plantation was, of course, up to that owner. Many slaves were, indeed, permitted to leave the plantation pursuant to completing various tasks. And, to preempt what might be your next attempt, note that many slaves (especially those above menial labor) would have some degree of autonomy to complete given tasks in the most efficient manner, and thus would literally be "free to leave the plantation" as needed. Even the necessity of coming back to the plantation can't be the criterion, as owners would be able to require otherwise should they so choose (although I am not aware of any historical examples of that).

    So, better, but not there yet.
    Last edited by marshaul; 04-08-2014 at 01:17 PM.

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Last I checked.... slaves weren't allowed to leave the plantation.

    Last I checked we can walk across the border for free of charge. Or get crazy and buy a plane/boat ticket and go across the pond. Rescind your citizenship and be tax free.

    So where's the slavery again?

    Sounds more like "if you choose to live here you must pay x amount rent".

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    You can't tax a right and if you can tax someone's earnings then they have no right those earnings. It's about who owns the fruits of your labors.

    So, let's say that some group says you can work anywhere you want but, we get all of your earnings, we will use part of your earnings to cover your vet (medical) bill, and we will arrange for you to get food.

    Is that not a slave?

    What is slavery then, please explain the difference between having no right to the fruits of your labor and being a slave.

    Maybe it's involuntary servitude...

    INVOLUNTARY SERVITUDE & PEONAGE

    A condition of compulsory service or labor performed by one person, against his will, for the benefit of another person due to force, threats, intimidation or other similar means of coercion and compulsion directed against him.

    In considering whether service or labor was performed by someone against his will or involuntarily, it makes no difference that the person may have initially agreed, voluntarily, to render the service or perform the work. If a person willingly begins work but later desires to withdraw and is then forced to remain and perform work against his will, his service becomes involuntary. Also, whether a person is paid a salary or a wage is not determinative of the question as to whether that person has been held in involuntary servitude. In other words, if a person is forced to labor against his will, his service is involuntary even though he is paid for his work.

    However, it is necessary to prove that the person knowingly and willfully took action, by way of force, threats, intimidation or other form of coercion, causing the victim to reasonably believe that he had no way to avoid continued service, that he was confronted by the existence of a superior and overpowering authority, constantly threatening to the extent that his will was completely subjugated.

    Title 18, U.S.C., Sec. 1584, makes it a Federal crime or offense for anyone to willfully hold another person in involuntary servitude.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Last I checked.... slaves weren't allowed to leave the plantation.

    Last I checked we can walk across the border for free of charge. Or get crazy and buy a plane/boat ticket and go across the pond. Rescind your citizenship and be tax free.

    So where's the slavery again?

    Sounds more like "if you choose to live here you must pay x amount rent".

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    Sounds more like "if you choose to live here, you will be slave to the government".

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    Sounds more like "if you choose to live here, you will be slave to the government".
    Well, I think that's ultimately the reason slavery is an incomplete analogy. The "freedom" to permanently and irrevocably go somewhere else entirely was certainly not available to any slaves in history.

    That doesn't mean that the appeal to consent is irrelevant. The lack of consent is, ultimately, the fundamental wrong of slavery. Consider: there are certainly mutually-voluntary arrangements which, in many respects, resemble slavery (live-in, dependent employees still exist). And there were certainly slaves who were "well-treated", aside from the systematic disregard of their will/consent.

    Ultimately, living under governance is not slavery. But the fact remains that all the minds in history have yet to deeply and meaningfully reconcile individual consent with government. The best we've done is pay lip-service to consent – admitting that it's important, and then turning right around and tacitly admitting (usually in the same document) that government must, in practice, disregard consent.
    Last edited by marshaul; 04-08-2014 at 01:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    You can't tax a right and if you can tax someone's earnings then they have no right those earnings. It's about who owns the fruits of your labors.

    So, let's say that some group says you can work anywhere you want but, we get all of your earnings, we will use part of your earnings to cover your vet (medical) bill, and we will arrange for you to get food.

    Is that not a slave?

    What is slavery then, please explain the difference between having no right to the fruits of your labor and being a slave.

    Maybe it's involuntary servitude...
    Are you saying that you have the right to earn money...employment? That sounds socialist to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Are you saying that you have the right to earn money...employment? That sounds socialist to me.
    Taxes are not always about money....money is just a easier method of paying your tribute unto Caesar. Caesar will only take what he can take again next year.....the dead pay no tribute.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Are you saying that you have the right to earn money...employment? That sounds socialist to me.
    You have a right to enter into mutually-voluntary contractual arrangements, including those involving the exchange of money for labor.

    It's also clear to me that, while there may be economic activity of which a government can claim to be a sine qua non – for instance, trading stocks in limited-liability corporations (generally these examples are perversions of a free market, but no matter) – this does not apply to such a labor-for-compensation agreement, which requires only one man with an ability to labor and another with desire to compensate him for it.
    Last edited by marshaul; 04-08-2014 at 01:43 PM.

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Taxes are not always about money....money is just a easier method of paying your tribute unto Caesar. Caesar will only take what he can take again next year.....the dead pay no tribute.
    We have no obligation to pay tribute to anyone.

    Caesar was collecting an extortion, either your citizens pay or we, Roman, will destroy your country with military force.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Are you saying that you have the right to earn money...employment? That sounds socialist to me.
    I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or if you have no idea was socialism is.....
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Last I checked.... slaves weren't allowed to leave the plantation.

    Last I checked we can walk across the border for free of charge. Or get crazy and buy a plane/boat ticket and go across the pond. Rescind your citizenship and be tax free.

    So where's the slavery again?

    Sounds more like "if you choose to live here you must pay x amount rent".

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    huh. I'm actually agreeing with you.


    This thread is as dumb as I thought it would be.

    I am not a slave. Slaves don't carry guns and do as they please. Slaves also don't do tons of work under the table (prove it Sam) and speak openly against their "master." I pay the taxes as part of my duty to help maintain the public property I use (water facilities, waste treatment, schools, highways, conservation, police, fire department, EMTs, national guard, coast guard etc etc etc). Without funds, we would have almost no working services (Detroit). Are they perfect services? Hell no, but necessary? Yes. Shut up and pay your taxes.

    Now use this tax=slavery meme to explain to me how the Bill of Rights doesn't guarantee our freedom.

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    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Are you saying that you have the right to earn money...employment? That sounds socialist to me.



    Indeed. The hallmark of a free economy is that you have the opportunity to work.

    Opportunities are made, not given.

    If you guys feel like you're underpaid, do something to make it better. I didn't get to where I am now from the hell hole I grew up in by demanding equality and opportunity, I got here by creating it and working hard to change what is into what it can be.

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wimwag View Post
    huh. I'm actually agreeing with you.


    This thread is as dumb as I thought it would be.

    I am not a slave. Slaves don't carry guns and do as they please. Slaves also don't do tons of work under the table (prove it Sam) and speak openly against their "master." I pay the taxes as part of my duty to help maintain the public property I use (water facilities, waste treatment, schools, highways, conservation, police, fire department, EMTs, national guard, coast guard etc etc etc). Without funds, we would have almost no working services (Detroit). Are they perfect services? Hell no, but necessary? Yes. Shut up and pay your taxes.

    Now use this tax=slavery meme to explain to me how the Bill of Rights doesn't guarantee our freedom.
    Slaves could own guns but they needed permission to do so. (see form 4473).

    Please explain which taxes you pay, and how you pay them, that go toward those things that you claim.

    What taxes are you talking about?
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    You're getting closer. But, in fact, whether or not a given slave (or perhaps the entirety of a given owner's chattel) would be permitted to leave the plantation was, of course, up to that owner. Many slaves were, indeed, permitted to leave the plantation pursuant to completing various tasks. And, to preempt what might be your next attempt, note that many slaves (especially those above menial labor) would have some degree of autonomy to complete given tasks in the most efficient manner, and thus would literally be "free to leave the plantation" as needed. Even the necessity of coming back to the plantation can't be the criterion, as owners would be able to require otherwise should they so choose (although I am not aware of any historical examples of that).

    So, better, but not there yet.
    Awesome. I'm close!

    Taxes are clearly about potatoes.

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    Regular Member Have Gun - Will Carry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Last I checked.... slaves weren't allowed to leave the plantation.

    Last I checked we can walk across the border for free of charge. Or get crazy and buy a plane/boat ticket and go across the pond. Rescind your citizenship and be tax free.
    Then apparently you haven't checked in quite a while, Primus. When I was younger I walked (and drove) across the border free of charge several times, but no longer - now our illustrious government REQUIRES us to pay for the privilege of leaving the country. (Technically a passport is required to reenter the country, not to leave it - but I understand the border guards won't allow you to cross into another country without one...)

    Citizens shouldn't be forced to pay to acquire a document such as this simply to leave the country - I feel it is ridiculous, invasive, and unwarranted! It's not slavery, but it doesn't exactly look like freedom either... Back when it was voluntary, I had no problem with passports - but I also never had a need for one, since it wasn't required to enter/leave Canada and Mexico.

    Now granted, since this went into effect I haven't had a good enough reason to leave the United States - but once a sufficient reason presents itself (wife wants to vacation in Jamaica or the Bahamas), apparently I will need to reconsider my convictions.
    “There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other.” - John Adams

    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Experience? Experience means political success, which means (today) Democrat or Republican. And it is precisely these professional politicians who have become corrupt and unrepresentative of the American people.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Have Gun - Will Carry View Post
    Then apparently you haven't checked in quite a while, Primus. When I was younger I walked (and drove) across the border free of charge several times, but no longer - now our illustrious government REQUIRES us to pay for the privilege of leaving the country. (Technically a passport is required to reenter the country, not to leave it - but I understand the border guards won't allow you to cross into another country without one...)

    Citizens shouldn't be forced to pay to acquire a document such as this simply to leave the country - I feel it is ridiculous, invasive, and unwarranted! It's not slavery, but it doesn't exactly look like freedom either... Back when it was voluntary, I had no problem with passports - but I also never had a need for one, since it wasn't required to enter/leave Canada and Mexico.

    Now granted, since this went into effect I haven't had a good enough reason to leave the United States - but once a sufficient reason presents itself (wife wants to vacation in Jamaica or the Bahamas), apparently I will need to reconsider my convictions.
    So your claiming that If you did not have your passport on you they would not let you leave? Last time I went to Canada the Canadians checked my passport upon admittance INTO their country. I don't even recall it being us border checking us.

    Cite?

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    You are a slave if you can rightfully be compelled against your will to work without being able to claim compensation for or the fruits of that labor.

    If you are in debt, you are a slave. You pay for your 'freedom' monthly, for instance.

    I do not believe Romans Chapter 13 commands Christians to blindly subject themselves to earthly governments, nor does it command Christians to pay taxes to those governments. Jesus does not answer the question directed to him as to whether or not Jews should have payed taxes to Caesar. Jesus essentially says to pay what is due, to pay what you owe and to whom it is owed. He does not state that Jews owe Caesar tax money. From what I read, he probably did not answer the question on purpose, as those asking were not looking for the answer to the question, they were attempting to entrap Jesus. I could be wrong.

    From the book of Mark

    And they sent unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in his words. And when they were come, they said unto him, “Master, we know that you are true, and care for no man: for you regard not the person of men, but teach the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not? Shall we give, or shall we not give?”

    But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, “Why do you tempt me? Bring me a denarion, that I may see it.”

    And they brought it. And he said unto them, “Whose is this image and superscription?”

    And they said unto him, “Caesar’s.”

    And Jesus answering said unto them, “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”

    And they marveled at him.
    Last edited by stealthyeliminator; 04-08-2014 at 03:25 PM.
    Advocate freedom please

  24. #24
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    You are a slave if you can rightfully be compelled against your will to work without being able to claim compensation for or the fruits of that labor.

    If you are in debt, you are a slave. You pay for your 'freedom' monthly, for instance.

    I do not believe Romans Chapter 13 commands Christians to blindly subject themselves to earthly governments, nor does it command Christians to pay taxes to those governments. Jesus does not answer the question directed to him as to whether or not Jews should have payed taxes to Caesar. Jesus essentially says to pay what is due, to pay what you owe and to whom it is owed. He does not state that Jews owe Caesar tax money. From what I read, he probably did not answer the question on purpose, as those asking were not looking for the answer to the question, they were attempting to entrap Jesus. I could be wrong.
    Well the key words are "against your will". The other key phrase is "nonsuch thing as a free lunch".

    So.... partake in community. Pay community. Don't like community. Leave community. But... don't live in community and not pay community. Then you are like the rest on "assistance" and just living off of others. Even if you provide your own shelter and food you'll be taking SOMETHING from the community. If you don't pay for that something, then your in trouble...

    Not sure how Jesus would have clarified that. If you get him on the line let us know.

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    Regular Member Have Gun - Will Carry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Have Gun - Will Carry View Post
    Then apparently you haven't checked in quite a while, Primus. When I was younger I walked (and drove) across the border free of charge several times, but no longer - now our illustrious government REQUIRES us to pay for the privilege of leaving the country. (Technically a passport is required to reenter the country, not to leave it - but I understand the border guards won't allow you to cross into another country without one...)
    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    So your claiming that If you did not have your passport on you they would not let you leave? Last time I went to Canada the Canadians checked my passport upon admittance INTO their country. I don't even recall it being us border checking us.

    Cite?

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    No cite - I said "I understand the border guards won't allow you to cross into another country without one", meaning that's the way I thought things were being done.

    I never claimed to be an expert on this subject, so if I'm wrong, fine - but I would have sworn that's what I had heard, that passports weren't being required by Canadian border guards to enter, but by the American guards in order to leave. I have no direct experience with the new requirements - haven't been to Canada in at least 10-12 years.
    “There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other.” - John Adams

    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Experience? Experience means political success, which means (today) Democrat or Republican. And it is precisely these professional politicians who have become corrupt and unrepresentative of the American people.

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