Slavery is bad, okay What is slavery then?

Freedom1Man · Apr 8, 2014

For questions about the federal taxes please click here watch the linked videos and then ask.

But, slavery, isn't that when someone else owns the fruits of your labor?

Is it when someone else owns your body? (if they own your body then they own your labor)

What would you do if you owned (a) slave(s) (how would you care for them)?

What is the percentage of your labors that have to be owned by someone else before it's slavery?

Do slaves have natural rights or granted (civil)"rights?"

Can slaves carry weapons (guns) or do they need the permission of their master (the state)?

davidmcbeth · Apr 8, 2014

Jesus said:

"Give back to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's."

Meaning that taxes are money you owe already.

Freedom1Man · Apr 8, 2014

davidmcbeth said:
Jesus said:

"Give back to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's."

Meaning that taxes are money you owe already.

You're one of those.

Follow the law. Throw Caesar's law into his face.

Jesus, if he was real, demanded that Caesar follow his own laws. Then in the story he paid the annual tax with money taken from one of Caesar's gods (the mouth of the fish will have two coins.....).

If your labors can be taxed then you have no right to the fruits of your labors and thus you don't own them.

beebobby · Apr 8, 2014

If you cannot be bought or sold against your will, then you are not a slave. Comparing having to pay taxes as part of being a responsible citizen to being a real slave is a bit of a stretch.

OC for ME · Apr 8, 2014

Freedom1Man said:
You're one of those.

Follow the law. Throw Caesar's law into his face.

Jesus, if he was real, demanded that Caesar follow his own laws. Then in the story he paid the annual tax with money taken from one of Caesar's gods (the mouth of the fish will have two coins.....).

If your labors can be taxed then you have no right to the fruits of your labors and thus you don't own them.

You're one of those.

beebobby said:
If you cannot be bought or sold against your will, then you are not a slave. Comparing having to pay taxes as part of being a responsible citizen to being a real slave is a bit of a stretch.

+1

marshaul · Apr 8, 2014

beebobby said:
If you cannot be bought or sold against your will, then you are not a slave.

Oh, well, you're just solved everything, haven't you?

What is the result of buying and selling? It is, of course, a transfer of ownership.

So, although you've tried to dodge the fact, slavery is not "being able to be bought or sold against your will", but the condition of being owned.

Now, define ownership. (Hint: Your definition must imply the ability to be bought and sold, but it cannot consist of this alone, as I can own things I didn't buy and will never sell.)

ETA: As it happens, I agree that having to pay taxes ≠ slavery (I might argue about conscription), but incomplete reasoning such as this cannot be the justification for that conclusion.

Primus · Apr 8, 2014

Last I checked.... slaves weren't allowed to leave the plantation.

Last I checked we can walk across the border for free of charge. Or get crazy and buy a plane/boat ticket and go across the pond. Rescind your citizenship and be tax free.

So where's the slavery again?

Sounds more like "if you choose to live here you must pay x amount rent".

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marshaul · Apr 8, 2014

Primus said:
Last I checked.... slaves weren't allowed to leave the plantation.

Last I checked we can walk across the border for free of charge. Or get crazy and buy a plane/boat ticket and go across the pond. Rescind your citizenship and be tax free.

So where's the slavery again?

Sounds more like "if you choose to live here you must pay x amount rent".

You're getting closer. But, in fact, whether or not a given slave (or perhaps the entirety of a given owner's chattel) would be permitted to leave the plantation was, of course, up to that owner. Many slaves were, indeed, permitted to leave the plantation pursuant to completing various tasks. And, to preempt what might be your next attempt, note that many slaves (especially those above menial labor) would have some degree of autonomy to complete given tasks in the most efficient manner, and thus would literally be "free to leave the plantation" as needed. Even the necessity of coming back to the plantation can't be the criterion, as owners would be able to require otherwise should they so choose (although I am not aware of any historical examples of that).

So, better, but not there yet.

Freedom1Man · Apr 8, 2014

Primus said:
Last I checked.... slaves weren't allowed to leave the plantation.

Last I checked we can walk across the border for free of charge. Or get crazy and buy a plane/boat ticket and go across the pond. Rescind your citizenship and be tax free.

So where's the slavery again?

Sounds more like "if you choose to live here you must pay x amount rent".

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

You can't tax a right and if you can tax someone's earnings then they have no right those earnings. It's about who owns the fruits of your labors.

So, let's say that some group says you can work anywhere you want but, we get all of your earnings, we will use part of your earnings to cover your vet (medical) bill, and we will arrange for you to get food.

Is that not a slave?

What is slavery then, please explain the difference between having no right to the fruits of your labor and being a slave.

Maybe it's involuntary servitude...

INVOLUNTARY SERVITUDE & PEONAGE

A condition of compulsory service or labor performed by one person, against his will, for the benefit of another person due to force, threats, intimidation or other similar means of coercion and compulsion directed against him.

In considering whether service or labor was performed by someone against his will or involuntarily, it makes no difference that the person may have initially agreed, voluntarily, to render the service or perform the work. If a person willingly begins work but later desires to withdraw and is then forced to remain and perform work against his will, his service becomes involuntary. Also, whether a person is paid a salary or a wage is not determinative of the question as to whether that person has been held in involuntary servitude. In other words, if a person is forced to labor against his will, his service is involuntary even though he is paid for his work.

However, it is necessary to prove that the person knowingly and willfully took action, by way of force, threats, intimidation or other form of coercion, causing the victim to reasonably believe that he had no way to avoid continued service, that he was confronted by the existence of a superior and overpowering authority, constantly threatening to the extent that his will was completely subjugated.

Title 18, U.S.C., Sec. 1584, makes it a Federal crime or offense for anyone to willfully hold another person in involuntary servitude.

georg jetson · Apr 8, 2014

Primus said:
Last I checked.... slaves weren't allowed to leave the plantation.

Last I checked we can walk across the border for free of charge. Or get crazy and buy a plane/boat ticket and go across the pond. Rescind your citizenship and be tax free.

So where's the slavery again?

Sounds more like "if you choose to live here you must pay x amount rent".

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

Sounds more like "if you choose to live here, you will be slave to the government".

marshaul · Apr 8, 2014

georg jetson said:
Sounds more like "if you choose to live here, you will be slave to the government".

Well, I think that's ultimately the reason slavery is an incomplete analogy. The "freedom" to permanently and irrevocably go somewhere else entirely was certainly not available to any slaves in history.

That doesn't mean that the appeal to consent is irrelevant. The lack of consent is, ultimately, the fundamental wrong of slavery. Consider: there are certainly mutually-voluntary arrangements which, in many respects, resemble slavery (live-in, dependent employees still exist). And there were certainly slaves who were "well-treated", aside from the systematic disregard of their will/consent.

Ultimately, living under governance is not slavery. But the fact remains that all the minds in history have yet to deeply and meaningfully reconcile individual consent with government. The best we've done is pay lip-service to consent – admitting that it's important, and then turning right around and tacitly admitting (usually in the same document) that government must, in practice, disregard consent.

davidmcbeth · Apr 8, 2014

Freedom1Man said:
You can't tax a right and if you can tax someone's earnings then they have no right those earnings. It's about who owns the fruits of your labors.

So, let's say that some group says you can work anywhere you want but, we get all of your earnings, we will use part of your earnings to cover your vet (medical) bill, and we will arrange for you to get food.

Is that not a slave?

What is slavery then, please explain the difference between having no right to the fruits of your labor and being a slave.

Maybe it's involuntary servitude...

Are you saying that you have the right to earn money...employment? That sounds socialist to me.

OC for ME · Apr 8, 2014

davidmcbeth said:
Are you saying that you have the right to earn money...employment? That sounds socialist to me.

Taxes are not always about money....money is just a easier method of paying your tribute unto Caesar. Caesar will only take what he can take again next year.....the dead pay no tribute.

marshaul · Apr 8, 2014

davidmcbeth said:
Are you saying that you have the right to earn money...employment? That sounds socialist to me.

You have a right to enter into mutually-voluntary contractual arrangements, including those involving the exchange of money for labor.

It's also clear to me that, while there may be economic activity of which a government can claim to be a sine qua non – for instance, trading stocks in limited-liability corporations (generally these examples are perversions of a free market, but no matter) – this does not apply to such a labor-for-compensation agreement, which requires only one man with an ability to labor and another with desire to compensate him for it.

Freedom1Man · Apr 8, 2014

OC for ME said:
Taxes are not always about money....money is just a easier method of paying your tribute unto Caesar. Caesar will only take what he can take again next year.....the dead pay no tribute.

We have no obligation to pay tribute to anyone.

Caesar was collecting an extortion, either your citizens pay or we, Roman, will destroy your country with military force.

Freedom1Man · Apr 8, 2014

davidmcbeth said:
Are you saying that you have the right to earn money...employment? That sounds socialist to me.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or if you have no idea was socialism is.....

wimwag · Apr 8, 2014

Primus said:
Last I checked.... slaves weren't allowed to leave the plantation.

Last I checked we can walk across the border for free of charge. Or get crazy and buy a plane/boat ticket and go across the pond. Rescind your citizenship and be tax free.

So where's the slavery again?

Sounds more like "if you choose to live here you must pay x amount rent".

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

huh. I'm actually agreeing with you.

This thread is as dumb as I thought it would be.

I am not a slave. Slaves don't carry guns and do as they please. Slaves also don't do tons of work under the table (prove it Sam) and speak openly against their "master." I pay the taxes as part of my duty to help maintain the public property I use (water facilities, waste treatment, schools, highways, conservation, police, fire department, EMTs, national guard, coast guard etc etc etc). Without funds, we would have almost no working services (Detroit). Are they perfect services? Hell no, but necessary? Yes. Shut up and pay your taxes.

Now use this tax=slavery meme to explain to me how the Bill of Rights doesn't guarantee our freedom.

wimwag · Apr 8, 2014

davidmcbeth said:
Are you saying that you have the right to earn money...employment? That sounds socialist to me.

Indeed. The hallmark of a free economy is that you have the opportunity to work.

Opportunities are made, not given.

If you guys feel like you're underpaid, do something to make it better. I didn't get to where I am now from the hell hole I grew up in by demanding equality and opportunity, I got here by creating it and working hard to change what is into what it can be.

Freedom1Man · Apr 8, 2014

wimwag said:
huh. I'm actually agreeing with you.

This thread is as dumb as I thought it would be.

I am not a slave. Slaves don't carry guns and do as they please. Slaves also don't do tons of work under the table (prove it Sam) and speak openly against their "master." I pay the taxes as part of my duty to help maintain the public property I use (water facilities, waste treatment, schools, highways, conservation, police, fire department, EMTs, national guard, coast guard etc etc etc). Without funds, we would have almost no working services (Detroit). Are they perfect services? Hell no, but necessary? Yes. Shut up and pay your taxes.

Now use this tax=slavery meme to explain to me how the Bill of Rights doesn't guarantee our freedom.

Slaves could own guns but they needed permission to do so. (see form 4473).

Please explain which taxes you pay, and how you pay them, that go toward those things that you claim.

What taxes are you talking about?

Primus · Apr 8, 2014

marshaul said:
You're getting closer. But, in fact, whether or not a given slave (or perhaps the entirety of a given owner's chattel) would be permitted to leave the plantation was, of course, up to that owner. Many slaves were, indeed, permitted to leave the plantation pursuant to completing various tasks. And, to preempt what might be your next attempt, note that many slaves (especially those above menial labor) would have some degree of autonomy to complete given tasks in the most efficient manner, and thus would literally be "free to leave the plantation" as needed. Even the necessity of coming back to the plantation can't be the criterion, as owners would be able to require otherwise should they so choose (although I am not aware of any historical examples of that).

So, better, but not there yet.

Awesome. I'm close!

Taxes are clearly about potatoes.

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Slavery is bad, okay What is slavery then?

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