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Slavery is bad, okay What is slavery then?

Freedom1Man

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So you don't owe anyone for your water? Do you have a well you pump from? If your house catches fire do expect FD to come put it out? Do you fly to work? Or drive on streets paved and maintained by others? Did you go to school? Do you eat food made by someone else? Etc. Etc. Etc...... these are some of many DIRECT benefits.

Your comparison of "my tree makes oxygen for you so pay" is pretty pathetic my friend.

And again..... don't like it? VOTE to have the tax rate zero. MOVE to a different place with less taxes. And some places allow you to opt of services.

Remember a funny story about a guy who didn't want to pay for FD. Well one day is house caught fire. FD showed up and made sure it didn't catch other peoples houses on fire and let his burn..... he was pissed.

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Our "public utilities" have been run so badly with the forcing us to either buy filters or drink poisons, the government controlled fire stations, the electrical companies being allowed to trespass and install "smart meters" which are horrible for your health, pay for the police that strip us of our rights and attempt to tax us through 'fines'.....

Where else, oh yeah, the public money that goes toward 'welfare' which was first stolen through taxes on businesses and workers.

I was trying to limit the discussion to the slavery issue. Which, is a tax on your labors.
 

Gallowmere

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Feb 23, 2014
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Richmond, VA
So you don't owe anyone for your water? Do you have a well you pump from? If your house catches fire do expect FD to come put it out? Do you fly to work? Or drive on streets paved and maintained by others? Did you go to school? Do you eat food made by someone else? Etc. Etc. Etc...... these are some of many DIRECT benefits.

Your comparison of "my tree makes oxygen for you so pay" is pretty pathetic my friend.

And again..... don't like it? VOTE to have the tax rate zero. MOVE to a different place with less taxes. And some places allow you to opt of services.

Remember a funny story about a guy who didn't want to pay for FD. Well one day is house caught fire. FD showed up and made sure it didn't catch other peoples houses on fire and let his burn..... he was pissed.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

Unfortunately, the only place that still has a completely zero tax on individuals is arid as hell. I'd live in Qatar in a minute, if it weren't for the whole desert thing. Oh, and amusingly enough, they manage to provide every single thing you mentioned, with only a 10% tax on corporations, and a slightly higher one on their oil exports. What don't they support? Right...people who don't contribute anything, an excessive military, and a bloated bureaucracy. Funny how when you chop that stuff away, you have cash to spare.
 
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marshaul

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Fairfax County, Virginia
If the slave is just happy enough to stay where he is because he's allowed to keep some of the fruits of his labor, is he not still a slave?

Living under governance is not slavery, but confiscating the fruits of your labor by that government is. At what point of confiscation does one become a slave? 10%? 50%? 100%?

If a slave is just happy enough to give 100% of the fruits of his labor, is he still a slave?
 

sudden valley gunner

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Well the key words are "against your will". The other key phrase is "nonsuch thing as a free lunch".

So.... partake in community. Pay community. Don't like community. Leave community. But... don't live in community and not pay community. Then you are like the rest on "assistance" and just living off of others. Even if you provide your own shelter and food you'll be taking SOMETHING from the community. If you don't pay for that something, then your in trouble...

Not sure how Jesus would have clarified that. If you get him on the line let us know.

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So you are a communist?

I thought you said you learned to separate society from government.

Of course someone who has made his entire living off the public trough wouldn't want people to stop throwing things into that trough.

Community isn't a forced association its simply a group of people who happen to live in the same area or have common background, so its voluntary by nature otherwise its..........slavery.
 

sudden valley gunner

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What is being discussed here is political slavery as Lysander Spooner points out is only different than chattel slavery by a matter of degrees.

Of course it's against the 14th amendment. And the declaration of independence.
 

sudden valley gunner

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Oh the whole Jesus thing. Read the context, the people who questioned him were trying to trick him into saying something to have a reason for the Romans to lock him up. Why would they believe he would be anti tax? His answer was a cleverly worded one that avoided their trap, and as pointed out, he didn't personally pay the tax out of his wages.
 

marshaul

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Fairfax County, Virginia

Aside from the fact that you just made slaves out of, for instance, many folks who have worked (or still work) under the "company town" model, as it's common that such folks never save a penny, but pay it all back to their employer to cover basic sustenance... Your position is that consent is irrelevant to slave status.

Some slaves were given stipends or allowances. So, to continue to classify them as "slaves", presumably you do need to create a bright line by defining some arbitrary percentage of "the fruits of the labor" which they must not be allowed to retain in order to be considered slaves.

This, of course, would be silly, as you could have de facto slaves by simply confiscating 1% less than wherever you drew that line. Whereever you draw the line, it's safe to say that 1% can't make the difference between slave and not-a-slave.

So, I don't think you can ignore consent entirely.
 
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sudden valley gunner

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Aside from the fact that you just made slaves out of, for instance, many folks who have worked (or still work) under the "company town" model, as it's common that such folks never save a penny, but pay it all back to their employer to cover basic sustenance... Your position is that consent is irrelevant to slave status.

Some slaves were given stipends or allowances. So, to continue to classify them as "slaves", presumably you do need to create a bright line by defining some arbitrary percentage of "the fruits of the labor" which the must not be allowed to retain in order to be considered slaves.

This, of course, would be silly, as you could have de facto slaves by simply confiscating 1% less than wherever you drew that line. Whereever you draw the line, it's safe to say that 1% can't make the difference between slave and not-a-slave.

So, I don't think you can ignore consent entirely.

I was thinking about that. There were certain jobs (diving if I remember right) that slaves were paid a small amount on top of, because it took a certain amount of skill to accomplish.
 

Freedom1Man

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Primus

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So you are a communist?

I thought you said you learned to separate society from government.

Of course someone who has made his entire living off the public trough wouldn't want people to stop throwing things into that trough.

Community isn't a forced association its simply a group of people who happen to live in the same area or have common background, so its voluntary by nature otherwise its..........slavery.

Society and government are different. But when your water main breaks who do you call? Your neighbor?

IF you do call for a water main break do you pay up front? Or get billed later depending on your last months water usage? Neither. You put into the "community" pot. When it breaks, your covered. This system does suck for those that never have a broken pipe, burnt house, guy bothering you at 2am, etc. Etc. But IRS community pooling together resources.

Remember communities pulling together the harvest doe the winter? Same idea. Except now its money.

Thus then goes to a federal level. Sure you don't need government today. But when a tornado comes through there's FEMA. Etm etc. Etc.

The tireless debate is the same except he's saying that ANY tax makes you a friggin SLAVE.

1) that degrades the very notion of slavery. Equating whips, raping, killing, breeding, beating, selling, etc. To "pay x amount of what you make. Oh your a bum and don't work? Ok.... here's welfare and free healthcare". Would a slave have lived if they decided they wanted to be fat and lazy? Think on that....

2) the notion is that ANY taxes automatically makes it slavery. That's absurd. A community needs SOME pooling of resources. Whether its 5 bucks a month just for fire department. Or %50 because the government is bloated and stupid.



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Gallowmere

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Society and government are different. But when your water main breaks who do you call? Your neighbor?

IF you do call for a water main break do you pay up front? Or get billed later depending on your last months water usage? Neither. You put into the "community" pot. When it breaks, your covered. This system does suck for those that never have a broken pipe, burnt house, guy bothering you at 2am, etc. Etc. But IRS community pooling together resources.

Remember communities pulling together the harvest doe the winter? Same idea. Except now its money.

Thus then goes to a federal level. Sure you don't need government today. But when a tornado comes through there's FEMA. Etm etc. Etc.

The tireless debate is the same except he's saying that ANY tax makes you a friggin SLAVE.

1) that degrades the very notion of slavery. Equating whips, raping, killing, breeding, beating, selling, etc. To "pay x amount of what you make. Oh your a bum and don't work? Ok.... here's welfare and free healthcare". Would a slave have lived if they decided they wanted to be fat and lazy? Think on that....

2) the notion is that ANY taxes automatically makes it slavery. That's absurd. A community needs SOME pooling of resources. Whether its 5 bucks a month just for fire department. Or %50 because the government is bloated and stupid.

The difference is that community pooling is voluntary. When something is taken from you involuntarily, it can only be construed two ways: theft, or slavery. Take your pick.
 
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stealthyeliminator

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Dec 29, 2008
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Texas
But when a tornado comes through there's FEMA. Etm etc. Etc.

Hahahahahahahaha

Can you send the national guard to confiscate my firearms, too?

Sorry for the off-topic reply, but I think the real reply has already been covered - you're refusing to acknowledge that there is a difference between voluntary communal efforts and involuntary communal efforts.
 

arentol

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Apr 10, 2009
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Kent, Washington, USA
A non-slave has the right to the fruits of their labors because those fruits are an extension of themselves.

You cannot claim to have the right to the someone's labor unless you own them.

Not true.

If you come to my home and intentionally burn it to the ground do I not have the right to claim a portion of the fruit of your labors until you have fairly repaid me for my loss? Does my making that claim to your labor mean I own you?
If I provide you a home to live in, clothing to wear, and food to eat with an agreement that you will give me 20% of the fruit of your labors in exchange then do I not have the RIGHT to said 20% of the fruit of your labors for as long as you make use of that which I provide you? Does that claim of mine mean I own you?

Taxes are merely a variation on the second example above, with our entire government and everything it does and provides in place of "home, clothing, and food". And it is indeed a voluntary agreement on your part. You have the freedom to sever the agreement at ANY TIME by leaving the US and renouncing your citizenship. A slave would not have that option.
 

sudden valley gunner

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Dec 13, 2008
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The above two replies are very good.

Society and government are different. But when your water main breaks who do you call? Your neighbor?

IF you do call for a water main break do you pay up front? Or get billed later depending on your last months water usage? Neither. You put into the "community" pot. When it breaks, your covered. This system does suck for those that never have a broken pipe, burnt house, guy bothering you at 2am, etc. Etc. But IRS community pooling together resources.

Id rather provide my own water but I am forced into public water by the state, and collecting my own is outlawed and heavily regulated. And this is a dumb analogy having nothing to do with "community". It has to do with government which forces me to pay a highly inflated water bill for real shite service.

Remember communities pulling together the harvest doe the winter? Same idea. Except now its money.

Again a community voluntarily pulling together, along with sayings like let him who did not work not eat. You don't understand what money is, it is a medium of exchange for services, it has nothing to do with communistic living.

Thus then goes to a federal level. Sure you don't need government today. But when a tornado comes through there's FEMA. Etm etc. Etc.

Sigh tired 'ol arguments of the government has placed itself into this service and so I must be against it because I don't want the government doing it. Utter nonsense. Remeber the drastic flooding of the upper Missippii not long after Katrina were the individuals helped each other way better than FEMA has ever done?

The tireless debate is the same except he's saying that ANY tax makes you a friggin SLAVE.

Unvoluntary taxes do make you a slave of sorts....notice how I using Spooner's unrefuted logic about political and chattel.

1) that degrades the very notion of slavery. Equating whips, raping, killing, breeding, beating, selling, etc. To "pay x amount of what you make. Oh your a bum and don't work? Ok.... here's welfare and free healthcare". Would a slave have lived if they decided they wanted to be fat and lazy? Think on that....

Bullshite. Discussing the various degrees of slavery does not degrade slavery any more than discussing the various aspects of homicide would degrade homicidal acts.

2) the notion is that ANY taxes automatically makes it slavery. That's absurd. A community needs SOME pooling of resources. Whether its 5 bucks a month just for fire department. Or %50 because the government is bloated and stupid.

What is absurd is your rationalization that a communities needs must be done by force.
 

xvw

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Apr 8, 2014
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1
Location
Northwest Indiana
"The Tale of the Slave" from Robert Nozick, Anarchy, State, and Utopia

I would encourage anyone, who hasn't already done so, to read "The Tale of the Slave" by Robert Nozick. It is not very long, and it can be easily found on various websites. Here is a link to one such copy:

https://web.duke.edu/philsociety/taleofslave.html

Robert raises the question: "Which transition from case 1 to case 9 made it no longer the tale of a slave?" How would you answer?
 

Freedom1Man

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Jan 14, 2012
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Greater Eastside Washington
Hahahahahahahaha

Can you send the national guard to confiscate my firearms, too?

Sorry for the off-topic reply, but I think the real reply has already been covered - you're refusing to acknowledge that there is a difference between voluntary communal efforts and involuntary communal efforts.

Considering that FEMA is not constitutional and it has zero semblance to any sort of proper and just authority.


I understand why you laugh.
 

Gallowmere

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Feb 23, 2014
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Location
Richmond, VA
Not true.

If you come to my home and intentionally burn it to the ground do I not have the right to claim a portion of the fruit of your labors until you have fairly repaid me for my loss? Does my making that claim to your labor mean I own you?
If I provide you a home to live in, clothing to wear, and food to eat with an agreement that you will give me 20% of the fruit of your labors in exchange then do I not have the RIGHT to said 20% of the fruit of your labors for as long as you make use of that which I provide you? Does that claim of mine mean I own you?

Taxes are merely a variation on the second example above, with our entire government and everything it does and provides in place of "home, clothing, and food". And it is indeed a voluntary agreement on your part. You have the freedom to sever the agreement at ANY TIME by leaving the US and renouncing your citizenship. A slave would not have that option.

Wait...did you just try to conflate restitution for wanton destruction of property, with taxation? I don't recall stealing food, nor housing, nor shelter, nor iPhones, from anyone.
 
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