Slavery is bad, okay What is slavery then?

marshaul · Apr 12, 2014

sudden valley gunner said:
Except for his views on the union?

Yup. I'm just going for accuracy here.

sudden valley gunner · Apr 12, 2014

marshaul said:
Yup. I'm just going for accuracy here.

Thought so. Didn't doubt you for a second....

Freedom1Man · Apr 13, 2014

You can't leave the plantation....

http://libertarianmoney.wordpress.com/2014/04/07/7-reasons-youre-not-free-to-leave/

http://libertarianmoney.wordpress.com/2014/04/07/7-reasons-youre-not-free-to-leave/
The next time someone tells you that you’re free to leave do the following: (No, don’t really do the following.)

1. Lock them in your trunk.

2. Give them forms they can fill out to get permission to leave your trunk and tell them they’re free to leave.

3. If they try to escape without permission, lock them back up and don’t let them fill out their escape forms for a while.

4. When they properly fill out their escape forms, make them wait a few months, and then pull them out of the trunk to “free them.”

5. As of that point, throw them in a different trunk and give them some blank forms.

6. Then tell them to be thankful that you protect their freedoms so much better than the US government.

This was the sad humors part of the writing and at the end.

This is more to the point

1. You’re Still Extorted If You Leave

A small country in Africa called Eritrea actually taxes it’s citizens for being alive. It has a draconian tax system that requires all citizens pay a 2% tax no matter where they are in the world. That means, if their citizens move out and use absolutely none of the governments services, they’re still required to pay 2% of everything they make. This practice has been attacked by the United Nations for its treatment of human rights. It’s the only country…

Wait… There are two countries in the world that practice citizenship based taxation. The second country, of course, being the United States.

No matter how little you use the services in the United States, you’re required to pay taxes. In fact, even if you’re required to pay taxes in the country you move to (because you use their services,) you still need to pay the US government.

While the world is anxious to harp on one of the smallest nations in the world for a 2 percent tax, virtually no one is allowed to mention the elephant in the room. United States citizens can be required to pay over half of their income while living somewhere completely different. Of course, human rights violations don’t count for America.

countryclubjoe · Apr 13, 2014

Your also taxed when your dead or your heirs are.

The only way to not be enslaved..

1- Deal strictly in cash
2- Never enter into any contracts with the G.
3- Store plenty of ammunition and food and water.

Obvious treat everyone with respect and know the Constitution.

As a non slave, we have a natural right to be left alone.

My .02

Regards

CCJ

Freedom1Man · Apr 14, 2014

countryclubjoe said:
Your also taxed when your dead or your heirs are.

The only way to not be enslaved..

1- Deal strictly in cash
2- Never enter into any contracts with the G.
3- Store plenty of ammunition and food and water.

Obvious treat everyone with respect and know the Constitution.

As a non slave, we have a natural right to be left alone.

My .02

Regards

CCJ

If we did not have to go through all those hoops, I might agree that we were free. "Cash" is a private IOU note that is getting passed around.
The G should be able to be treated like any other business contract wise except for those wanting the 'benefits' sourced from stolen money.

Since the government will not leave us alone, in someone's eyes we must be slaves/cattle/live stock.

marshaul · Apr 14, 2014

Freedom1Man said:
"Cash" is a private IOU note that is getting passed around.

Nonsense.

Value (all value) is arbitrary and assigned. The value of the USD is no less real than is the value of gold or silver.

Society attaches value – real value – to the USD, therefore it is no more an "IOU" than would be the exchange in a direct barter.

I strongly suspect that you misunderstand the problem with fiat currency. The problem with fiat currency is quite exclusively the ability of the Fed (or whoever) to effect perpetual inflation.

stealthyeliminator · Apr 14, 2014

marshaul said:
Nonsense.

Value (all value) is arbitrary and assigned. The value of the USD is no less real than is the value of gold or silver.

Society attaches value – real value – to the USD, therefore it is no more an "IOU" than would be the exchange in a direct barter.

I strongly suspect that you misunderstand the problem with fiat currency. The problem with fiat currency is quite exclusively the ability of the Fed (or whoever) to effect perpetual inflation.

Not that I agree that cash is simply a private IOU note, I'd have to think about that one, but I'm not so sure about what you're saying either...

I don't believe that the only issue with the USD is that the government is able to inflate. It is a big issue, yes, but far from the only one. There are many other differences between using USD and gold or silver as currency other than the fact that one is inflatable and one "isn't"

sudden valley gunner · Apr 14, 2014

Gold and Silver has had a historic value as a medium of exchange. It's rare and takes work to get. That could change over night, some invention that mines gold or fuses gold cheaply so that it becomes as valuable as aluminum (once a very rare metal).

stealthyeliminator · Apr 14, 2014

The only thing that makes the USD valuable as a currency is that the use of it significantly reduces the threat of government action against you, as opposed to attempting to use any competing currency. You use USD in order to avoid government action against you, not because it has any certain characteristic which makes it a good currency as gold and silver have characteristics which make them good currency. Gold and silver have not traditionally been used as currency in order to avoid consequences some government has threatened for the use of competing currency, USDs have.

sudden valley gunner · Apr 14, 2014

The use of it is a secret tax when they inflate it too. Much harder for them to do that with free market currencies.

marshaul · Apr 14, 2014

stealthyeliminator said:
The only thing that makes the USD valuable as a currency is that the use of it significantly reduces the threat of government action against you, as opposed to attempting to use any competing currency. You use USD in order to avoid government action against you, not because it has any certain characteristic which makes it a good currency as gold and silver have characteristics which make them good currency. Gold and silver have not traditionally been used as currency in order to avoid consequences some government has threatened for the use of competing currency, USDs have.

No, that isn't what makes it valuable.

Value is the market measure of perceived utility. The USD has value because it has utility. You can, with a stack of USDs, obtain any commodity or service one might desire. Therefore, it has some real value.

Note that this is a subjective thing. This means that, should perceptions of utility change, so will the assigned value. The USD is valuable because everybody agrees it's valuable, same as gold or silver.

Consider that the USD is valuable (and widely used, although perhaps less so than once upon a time) across the entire globe, and yet the US government has no ability to force individuals in other countries to value or use the USD.

stealthyeliminator · Apr 14, 2014

marshaul said:
No, that isn't what makes it valuable.

Value is the market measure of perceived utility. The USD has value because it has utility. You can, with a stack of USDs, obtain any commodity or service one might desire. Therefore, it has some real value.

Note that this is a subjective thing. This means that, should perceptions of utility change, so will the assigned value. The USD is valuable because everybody agrees it's valuable, same as gold or silver.

Consider that the USD is valuable (and widely used, although perhaps less so than once upon a time) across the entire globe, and yet the US government has no ability to force individuals in other countries to value or use the USD.

Not trying to be argumentative, but that is not true. Our government coerces at every turn, within its borders and surely outside of them as well.

Freedom1Man · Apr 14, 2014

sudden valley gunner said:
Gold and Silver has had a historic value as a medium of exchange. It's rare and takes work to get. That could change over night, some invention that mines gold or fuses gold cheaply so that it becomes as valuable as aluminum (once a very rare metal).

I melt down an an oz of gold and it's still and oz of gold same with silver.

Apply flame to a FRN and try to melt it, it burns and become worth nothing or something really close to nothing.

Freedom1Man · Apr 14, 2014

marshaul said:
No, that isn't what makes it valuable.

Value is the market measure of perceived utility. The USD has value because it has utility. You can, with a stack of USDs, obtain any commodity or service one might desire. Therefore, it has some real value.

Note that this is a subjective thing. This means that, should perceptions of utility change, so will the assigned value. The USD is valuable because everybody agrees it's valuable, same as gold or silver.

Consider that the USD is valuable (and widely used, although perhaps less so than once upon a time) across the entire globe, and yet the US government has no ability to force individuals in other countries to value or use the USD.

Government has no power to print money in the first place.... So eat that.

marshaul · Apr 14, 2014

stealthyeliminator said:
Not trying to be argumentative, but that is not true. Our government coerces at every turn, within its borders and surely outside of them as well.

We're talking about using/valuing the USD. Our government doesn't coerce that outside our borders. Most countries have and utilize their own currency. And yet the USD will be accepted in markets white, gray, and black the world over.

I won't dispute that our government is aggressive overseas, but if you seriously intend to argue that our government uses force to demand that citizens of other countries value and use the USD, you're going to have to provide some specific examples.

Freedom1Man said:
Government has no power to print money in the first place.... So eat that.

When did I defend the practice of government printing money?

marshaul · Apr 14, 2014

Freedom1Man said:
I melt down an an oz of gold and it's still and oz of gold same with silver.

Apply flame to a FRN and try to melt it, it burns and become worth nothing or something really close to nothing.

What does that have to due with the value of either substance?

Freedom1Man · Apr 26, 2014

This has nailed it.

Gallowmere · Apr 26, 2014

Freedom1Man said:
I melt down an an oz of gold and it's still and oz of gold same with silver.

Apply flame to a FRN and try to melt it, it burns and become worth nothing or something really close to nothing.

One could apply the same argument to just about any form of food. If you burn them, all of their energy value is dispersed, and you're left with carbon. While I see your point, this doesn't make for a very persuasive argument against the inherent value of something. In fact, at the most basic and primal level, gold and silver are worth far less than food.

Freedom1Man · Apr 26, 2014

Gallowmere said:
One could apply the same argument to just about any form of food. If you burn them, all of their energy value is dispersed, and you're left with carbon. While I see your point, this doesn't make for a very persuasive argument against the inherent value of something. In fact, at the most basic and primal level, gold and silver are worth far less than food.

Food has intrinsic value, you can't live without it.

I was referring to an advanced system of exchanging labor, generally called "money." If you have a set weight of gold and/or silver melting it will not change it. While paper will end up with zero value.

The other thing is that with paper there is, at this time, an interest charge on the use of it. Thus those who use it are debt slaves.

marshaul · Apr 26, 2014

Freedom1Man said:
Food has intrinsic value

False.

Food has intrinsic utility.

What value is placed on food by an individual on a hunger strike, or by an ascetic? What value is placed on food by someone who has an unlimited supply of it, say thanks to the labors of others?

You still misunderstand the nature of value.

The greatest irony about the fixation on gold and silver is that their only inherent utility today depends on modern civilization. There would literally be no use for either without modern industry. In the past, there was little to no inherent utility at all (merely arbitrarily assigned value based on perceived utility in the acquisition of goods and services, precisely as the USD is valued today).

If anything, I would expect the USD to maintain its value better than gold or silver in a crisis scenario, as folks are accustomed to the USD having a greater practical utility (in obtaining goods and services) than do gold or silver. Since value is assigned based on perceived utility, ultimately I expect neither to maintain value long without a functioning civilization with ample trade and excess productivity. Food, water, and ammunition are far more likely to be primary trade media.

Slavery is bad, okay What is slavery then?

Campaign Veteran

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Campaign Veteran

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Campaign Veteran

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Campaign Veteran

Campaign Veteran

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Campaign Veteran