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Thread: King McAuliffe denies Free Speech permit on Capital Grounds -- Lobby Day Implications

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    King McAuliffe denies Free Speech permit on Capital Grounds -- Lobby Day Implications

    Governor King McAuliffe had imperiously denied the Family Foundation a permit for their Annual Day of Prayer, to be held at 12 Noon, because it might alarm some people having lunch outdoors. This in turn alarmed the ACLU Virginia. Today, T-Mac backed down:

    Amid public pressure, McAuliffe OKs prayer rally time
    Having already upset Christian conservatives for vetoing a pair of bills liberalizing rules on public square proselytizing, Gov. Terry McAuliffe did so again after his administration initially told a National Day of Prayer group it couldn’t gather on state grounds when it wanted to.

    That decision also alarmed the American Civil Liberties Union of Virginia, whose leader wants McAuliffe to revise what she deems constitutionally suspect regulations for demonstrations on Capitol Square.

    Permits for rallies at Virginia’s seat of government are issued through the Department of General Services, and that’s who local Day of Prayer organizers applied to ahead of a faith-based event at noon on May 1.

    The response: Noon won’t work because the public needs free access to that outdoor space during the lunch hour, but 1 p.m. is fine for a prayer ceremony.

    Amid public pressure Friday afternoon, a McAuliffe spokeswoman said the rally would be allowed at noon.

    ...

    The ACLU, which isn’t often aligned with the Family Foundation, is concerned for different reasons.

    “The Capitol Square is a quintessential public forum,” ACLU of Virginia Executive Director Claire Guthrie Gastańaga said.

    Her problems with the permit rules include restrictions on what space can be used and officials’ power to deny permission based on the content of the message.

    “The most effective location for protests against the government is often the seat of government itself,” she added.
    If McAuliffe has little fear in being this brazen now, what are the implications for future rallies, like the annual gun rights 'Lobby Day' rally?

    Could he ban that, then back down and say, well okay, provided everyone disarm?

    Terry is one scary dude.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Yes, he could say that. But the carrying of firearms on Lobby Day is more than a Second Amendment issue. On that day it most clearly is (as every other da, as far as I am concerned) a First Amendment activity. The only question I have is if the ACLU would fight for us? (They ought to - or risk being reminded of two little words: "Illinois Nazis".)

    What McAuliffe could try to do is put pressure on the GA to revise their rules for the GA Building. I'm not sure how the legislators would respond to such an attempt, but my guess is it would not be favorably.

    BTW - I would never advocate for, let alone suggest, that each person decide in the privacy of their own mind, to have a picnic lunch at Capitol Square that noontime, without discussing that decision with anybody else. Never!

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    I would never advocate for, let alone suggest, that each person decide in the privacy of their own mind, to have a picnic lunch at Capitol Square that noontime, without discussing that decision with anybody else. Never!
    stay safe.
    Skidmark, I would never think of doing such a thing either. Everybody that knows me knows that I'm not that creative. However, if you don't suggest not doing that, I probably wouldn't have the presence of mind to not go do it..................... I wonder when would be a good time for us to not plan inadvertently meeting in front of the GA for lunch?????

    roN

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    You gonna say grace??? Whaaaat?

    No permit is needed to exercise your 1st amendment--house rules do not create a crime IMO ~ they are rules to bind the house members, not non-members.
    Dear davidmcbeth -

    Please block out January 18/19, 2015 on your calendar. Then PM me with your address (heck, I'll accept a PO Box) where I can send you a bus ticket (round trip - I would not want you to wind up staying here) so you can participate in Lobby Day and explain to the Capitol Police the the house rules do not create a crime if you decide not to abide by them. I'll even pay for dinner Sunday night and breakfast Monday morning before we head to the General Assembly building. Lunch Monday will be up to you - or possibly the Richmond City Jail - depending on whether or not you actually choose to live out your convictions.

    In the meantime, please let me know which internet escrow service you want me to use for the necessary funds, so there will be no chance I would back out at the last minute.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Dear davidmcbeth -

    Please block out January 18/19, 2015 on your calendar. Then PM me with your address (heck, I'll accept a PO Box) where I can send you a bus ticket (round trip - I would not want you to wind up staying here) so you can participate in Lobby Day and explain to the Capitol Police the the house rules do not create a crime if you decide not to abide by them. I'll even pay for dinner Sunday night and breakfast Monday morning before we head to the General Assembly building. Lunch Monday will be up to you - or possibly the Richmond City Jail - depending on whether or not you actually choose to live out your convictions.

    In the meantime, please let me know which internet escrow service you want me to use for the necessary funds, so there will be no chance I would back out at the last minute.

    stay safe.
    http://www.cga.ct.gov/hco/jointrules.htm
    http://www.cga.ct.gov/hco/houserules.htm
    http://www.cga.ct.gov/hco/senaterules.htm

    Above are links to the rules in our legislature. Know who can write one? One person can write a rule w/o a vote.

    I doubt you need a Yankee to come down and teach you about rules.

    I think there has been confusion though ... you talking rules or law or regulations?
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 04-19-2014 at 01:00 AM.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    http://www.cga.ct.gov/hco/jointrules.htm
    http://www.cga.ct.gov/hco/houserules.htm
    http://www.cga.ct.gov/hco/senaterules.htm

    Above are links to the rules in our legislature. Know who can write one? One person can write a rule w/o a vote.

    I doubt you need a Yankee to come down and teach you about rules.

    I think there has been confusion though ... you talking rules or law or regulations?
    The offer still stands.

    You decided to stick your body parts into a discussion of Virginia politics and legislative practices based on what some yahoos do somewhere else. Well, maybe a bit of instruction in the difference between how things operate in Virginia as opposed to either Connecticut or davidmvbeth's la-la land might be just the thing for you.

    For the sake of making sure you understand (difficult as that might be) - the discussion has been about rules. A rule coming from the Joint House-Senate Rules Committee of the Virginia General Assembly. Not something from any other state's legislature, which would have absolutely no bearing on the discussion.

    Bring your A-game and an overnight bag or remove your body parts from the discussion.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    As they say,

    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    The offer still stands.

    You decided to stick your body parts into a discussion of Virginia politics and legislative practices based on what some yahoos do somewhere else. Well, maybe a bit of instruction in the difference between how things operate in Virginia as opposed to either Connecticut or davidmvbeth's la-la land might be just the thing for you.

    For the sake of making sure you understand (difficult as that might be) - the discussion has been about rules. A rule coming from the Joint House-Senate Rules Committee of the Virginia General Assembly. Not something from any other state's legislature, which would have absolutely no bearing on the discussion.

    Bring your A-game and an overnight bag or remove your body parts from the discussion.

    stay safe.
    Game, set, match. Yet another "know-it-all" Yankee slapped down. You KNOW he will never show. Cowards are like that.

    Good job Skid! ;>)

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    Regular Member rightwinglibertarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    You gonna say grace??? Whaaaat?

    No permit is needed to exercise your 1st amendment--house rules do not create a crime IMO ~ they are rules to bind the house members, not non-members.
    Unfortunately as we are talking state grounds as opposed to public they can do what they like. Private land. Don't get me wrong I understand your rage and would certainly have publically condemned the decision but it is legal.
    "Which part of shall not be infringed is so difficult to understand"?

    "Any and all restrictions on the bearing of arms in public places are nullified as per the Second Amendment"

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    The offer still stands.

    You decided to stick your body parts into a discussion of Virginia politics and legislative practices based on what some yahoos do somewhere else. Well, maybe a bit of instruction in the difference between how things operate in Virginia as opposed to either Connecticut or davidmvbeth's la-la land might be just the thing for you.

    For the sake of making sure you understand (difficult as that might be) - the discussion has been about rules. A rule coming from the Joint House-Senate Rules Committee of the Virginia General Assembly. Not something from any other state's legislature, which would have absolutely no bearing on the discussion.

    Bring your A-game and an overnight bag or remove your body parts from the discussion.

    stay safe.
    That was a generous offer Skid but as I said at breakfast (When I was comparing David to a Edited for content) He ain't coming in my state!

    David, exactly why would anyone care what the rules in Connecticut are ? If you don't know what you're talking about, keep quiet.....OH sorry, Keep quiet Please
    Last edited by peter nap; 04-19-2014 at 01:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinglibertarian View Post
    Unfortunately as we are talking state grounds as opposed to public they can do what they like. Private land. Don't get me wrong I understand your rage and would certainly have publically condemned the decision but it is legal.
    I believe you are completely and utterly confused, or have somehow managed to turn things completely inside-out.

    Capitol Square is a public park. http://www.virginiacapitol.gov/index...capitol_square

    The public area surrounding the 1788 Capitol was originally a weed-filled, virtually treeless open square with informal lanes and footpaths. The first formal landscape plan for Capitol Square was developed by Maximilian Godefroy in 1816. His formal walkways, public fountains and trees planted with geometric precision recalled the courtly gardens of 18th century France. In 1850 John Notman was hired to redesign the landscape of Capitol Square.

    Winding walkways take visitors to scenic attractions making for a pleasant walking tour of the Capitol grounds.
    He introduced informal winding paths, additional public entrances and new plantings of trees in scattered groups. Notman's plan was implemented in the 1850s, making Capitol Square one of the first major urban parks in the nation designed in the English picturesque style. The current landscaping of the grounds reflects various elements of previous 19th and 20th century designs used on the Square. As a planned urban park, Capitol Square is older than Central Park in New York City.
    Specifically because it is "state grounds" - as opposed to private property - they cannot do whatever they like. Yes, they can create rules like no sticks, poles, or other pieces of wood/metal/plastic/cardboard to attach signs to, or that you have to remain 30 feet from the Bell Tower if you are meeting in that area, or that groups need to get a permit so they can efficiently appropriate the time available for various groups to use the area. But they cannot block out "free speech zones" that might or might not be in places where the speech/activity is pretty much out of the view and hearing of the Capitol buildings or the general public using the grounds or walking/driving past Capitol Square.

    Further, without objective documentation that the group applying for a permit to use Capitol Square during the traditional lunchtime would in fact keep state workers and/or the general public park from being able to find a place to eat their lunch al fresco, they cannot use that as an excuse for denying the permit application. And they cannot claim that the proposed activity will, or would tend to, or might, upset or offend or outrage or otherwise bewitch and bother folks having lunch there. What they can do is wait until there is specific behavioor that violates specific laws such as but not limited to disturbing the peace (which, BTW, does not exist as a crime in Va except under Common Law) or incite http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-485 or riot http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-405 et seq or use abusive language http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-416 the Capitol Police can act to retore order.

    Capitol Square is the front yard of what one of our esteemed legislators has lovingly referred to as "The People's House". I'm sorry to hear that the same does not apply in your state.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Just to add a little to what Skid said and the unpredictable behavior of our less than desirable Governor....:

    Gov. Terry McAuliffe has signed legislation essentially eliminating so-called “free speech zones” that ban free speech everywhere on campus except within certain small tracts of real estate. The law, sponsored by Del. Scott Lingamfelter, passed both houses of the General Assembly unanimously — an encouraging indication that legislators can indeed be trusted on key constitutional issues at least some of the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    I believe you are completely and utterly confused, or have somehow managed to turn things completely inside-out.

    Capitol Square is a public park. http://www.virginiacapitol.gov/index...capitol_square



    Specifically because it is "state grounds" - as opposed to private property - they cannot do whatever they like......



    ......I'm sorry to hear that the same does not apply in your state.

    stay safe.


    Actually I happen to be an American living abroad, though not for much longer. I made the false assumption this was along the lines of banning firearms in public buildings which as far as I can tell are owned by the state which is why they can make such distasteful rules.

    I would in light of this information ask why permits are even being mentioned. This group should simply have exercised their rights. I can't say I know the exact legislation involved but reasonable force can certainly be used if threatened, harassed or if the attempt is made to rob and kidnap citizens. Police need to learn the people, the militia are in charge, not them.
    "Which part of shall not be infringed is so difficult to understand"?

    "Any and all restrictions on the bearing of arms in public places are nullified as per the Second Amendment"

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinglibertarian View Post
    Actually I happen to be an American living abroad, though not for much longer. I made the false assumption this was along the lines of banning firearms in public buildings which as far as I can tell are owned by the state which is why they can make such distasteful rules.

    I would in light of this information ask why permits are even being mentioned. This group should simply have exercised their rights. I can't say I know the exact legislation involved but reasonable force can certainly be used if threatened, harassed or if the attempt is made to rob and kidnap citizens. Police need to learn the people, the militia are in charge, not them.
    Permits are mentioned because of two things. First, preemption does not extend to state property and second, the Joint Rules Committee which makes the rules governing the GA Building and Capitol Building, made a rule that required a permit. More to the rule but it;s being accepted as valid at this point.

    Now...as to using reasonable force to resist being removed for disobeying the established rule. Very good idea. You go first!

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post

    Now...as to using reasonable force to resist being removed for disobeying the established rule. Very good idea. You go first!
    the refusal to obey the 'established rule' caused the American Revolution. It's not such a crazy idea as you seem to be making out.
    "Which part of shall not be infringed is so difficult to understand"?

    "Any and all restrictions on the bearing of arms in public places are nullified as per the Second Amendment"

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinglibertarian View Post
    the refusal to obey the 'established rule' caused the American Revolution. It's not such a crazy idea as you seem to be making out.
    Nope, not a crazy idea at all. Virginia's prisons are full of people with the idea. I don't like fights that I can't win and have no purpose. That's why I always suggest the sponsor go first.
    Now there are always a lot of "Yeah Buts" that go with these discussions.

    Yeah but if an army of you did it you would win.
    Yeah but if you had User in court and about fifty grand in legal fees you could win.
    Yeah but if you could fly, you could get away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinglibertarian View Post
    Actually I happen to be an American living abroad, though not for much longer. I made the false assumption this was along the lines of banning firearms in public buildings which as far as I can tell are owned by the state which is why they can make such distasteful rules.

    I would in light of this information ask why permits are even being mentioned. This group should simply have exercised their rights. I can't say I know the exact legislation involved but reasonable force can certainly be used if threatened, harassed or if the attempt is made to rob and kidnap citizens. Police need to learn the people, the militia are in charge, not them.
    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinglibertarian View Post
    the refusal to obey the 'established rule' caused the American Revolution. It's not such a crazy idea as you seem to be making out.
    To advocate using force against the government is a serious violation of Forum Rules.

    (15) WE ADVOCATE FOR THE 'LAW-ABIDING' ONLY: Posts advocating illegal acts of any kind are NOT welcome here. Even if you feel that a law is unconstitutional we do not break it, we repeal it or defeat it in the courts.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    That was a generous offer Skid but as I said at breakfast (When I was comparing David to a Edited for content) He ain't coming in my state!

    David, exactly why would anyone care what the rules in Connecticut are ? If you don't know what you're talking about, keep quiet.....OH sorry, Keep quiet Please
    I don't think you know what u are talking about in this thread .. you are free to show what VA assembly rule applies in this thread...but you have not yet. Cite???

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I don't think you know what u are talking about in this thread .. you are free to show what VA assembly rule applies in this thread...but you have not yet. Cite???
    Ah, but we have, dear davidmcbeth. It's the rule that requires groups to obtain a permit for use of Capitol Square. Or are your Google skillz so weak that you could not find this for yourself? https://dgs.virginia.gov/DivisionofE...5/Default.aspx

    In the future I shall expect you to provide a full citation for every thing you refer to. Goose, gander, sause and all that.

    However, I fear you might actually be correct when you suggest that peter nap may not know what he is talking about. I'm not sure but I think he may be referring to the HSJRC rule on handguns in the General Assembly Building. A little difficult to be sure but since I really do want you to come down for Lobby Day and show us Virginians what rules really mean, I'll give that one to you as an enticement to taking me up on the offer of a bus ticket, lodging, and meals.

    You will come, won't you?

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Can't sell popcorn w/o a Vendor's License in the city of Richmond, but I can give it away to those that want to watch David do his dance at the GAB
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I don't think you know what u are talking about in this thread .. you are free to show what VA assembly rule applies in this thread...but you have not yet. Cite???
    Here you go.

    The rules committee's are standing committees and bills go through them just like any other arm of the general assembly. They are voted on, referred and voted on by both houses.


    House Committees



    Senate Committees


    Access and Security


    In accordance with local, state, and federal laws, rules, and regulations, interim rules regarding the General Assembly Building have been established jointly by the Clerk of the House and the Clerk of the Senate at the direction of the General Assembly's Committee on Joint Rules.

    To ensure the safety of employees and visitors, all non credentialed visitors are required to pass through a security screening and have their personal items screened by an x-ray machine prior to entry to the building. Please note that all packages and bags are subject to physical search

    This is an example of a bill that concerns carry in the building:

    At the same time he had a much more restrictive bill pending in Rules. Both were voted down.

    2014 SESSION


    • | print version

    HB 102 State legislative buildings; prohibits possession of weapons in buildings except by certain persons.

    Introduced by: Patrick A. Hope | all patrons ... notes | add to my profiles
    SUMMARY AS INTRODUCED:

    Possession of weapons in state legislative buildings. Prohibits the possession of weapons in legislative buildings except by any person who lawfully possesses a handgun. The provisions of the bill that require screening of persons entering such building would not apply to General Assembly members or staff or to any law-enforcement officer.

    HB 1391 State legislative buildings; prohibits possession of weapons in Capitol of Va., exception.
    Patrick A. Hope | all patrons ... notes
    | add to my profiles
    another bill? Log in LIS Home - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bills & Resolutions Members Committees Meetings Calendars Communications House Minutes Senate Minutes Statistics Lobbyist-in-a-Box

    Summary as introduced:
    Possession of weapons in state legislative buildings. Prohibits the possession of weapons in legislative buildings except by any person who lawfully possesses a handgun. The provisions of the bill would not apply to General Assembly members or staff or to any law-enforcement officer.Full text:
    12/15/12 House: Prefiled and ordered printed; offered 01/09/13 13102076D pdf | impact statement

    Status:
    12/15/12 House: Prefiled and ordered printed; offered 01/09/13 13102076D
    12/15/12 House: Referred to Committee on Militia, Police and Public Safety
    01/15/13 House: Assigned MPPS sub: #1
    01/17/13 House: Subcommittee recommends referring to Committee on Rules with amendment(s)
    01/18/13 House: Referred from Militia, Police and Public Safety by voice vote
    01/18/13 House: Referred to Committee on Rules
    01/31/13 House: Tabled in Rules by voice v


    Last edited by peter nap; 04-19-2014 at 08:41 PM.

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    In my state, a single person can make a rule...different states, different ways of making rules. I'm guessing its the same in your state. Normally rules are voted on but they don't have to be.

    CGS Sec. 1-2(a)
    (e) In lieu of or in addition to the promulgation of separate regulations the presiding officers of each house may promulgate joint regulations applicable to both houses.
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 04-19-2014 at 08:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Well, they are not rules. They are subject to regulations. rules do not equal regulation.

    Do words matter? Sure do.
    In words immortalized by Bob Barker . "Come on down!"

    Wonder if you know what the "rule" is on carrying in the gallery of the senate chamber.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 04-19-2014 at 08:38 PM. Reason: hit button too soon
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member rightwinglibertarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    To advocate using force against the government is a serious violation of Forum Rules.

    (15) WE ADVOCATE FOR THE 'LAW-ABIDING' ONLY: Posts advocating illegal acts of any kind are NOT welcome here. Even if you feel that a law is unconstitutional we do not break it, we repeal it or defeat it in the courts.
    *deep sigh* Very well then
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    In my state, a single person can make a rule...different states, different ways of making rules. I'm guessing its the same in your state. Normally rules are voted on but they don't have to be.

    CGS Sec. 1-2(a)
    (e) In lieu of or in addition to the promulgation of separate regulations the presiding officers of each house may promulgate joint regulations applicable to both houses.
    You see David, therein lies the problem. We are not talking about your state. Don't guess.

    Regulations are found in the Virginia Administrative Code and are subject to public input before being adopted/approved by state agencies.
    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+men+SRR

    "Rules" are not subject to the same type of public input as are the regulations of the various agencies of the Commonwealth.

    We have senate rules, house rules, and joint legislative rules. The executive mansion has rules pertaining to it.

    Take off you hat and don't wear shorts to court - you might run head long into a rule.

    I find it interesting/telling that you think these do not have the force of law in Virginia because of your experiences in Connecticut.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Logan 5's Avatar
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    Apr 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    The offer still stands.

    You decided to stick your body parts into a discussion of Virginia politics and legislative practices based on what some yahoos do somewhere else. Well, maybe a bit of instruction in the difference between how things operate in Virginia as opposed to either Connecticut or davidmvbeth's la-la land might be just the thing for you.

    For the sake of making sure you understand (difficult as that might be) - the discussion has been about rules. A rule coming from the Joint House-Senate Rules Committee of the Virginia General Assembly. Not something from any other state's legislature, which would have absolutely no bearing on the discussion.

    Bring your A-game and an overnight bag or remove your body parts from the discussion.

    stay safe.
    I like how you say that. It's just trickling with love!
    Lifetime member, Gun Owners of America (http://gunowners.org/)
    Lifetime member, Jews for the Preservation of Firearm Ownership (http://jpfo.org/)
    Member, Fraternal Order of Eagles since 8/02 (http://www.foe.com/)

    Registering gun owners to prevent crime, is like registering Jews to prevent a HOLOCAUST.

    I am not a lawyer in real life, or in play life. So anything I say is for debate and discussion only.

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