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Thread: This judge now understands as we do: laws are so convoluted no one understands

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    This judge now understands as we do: laws are so convoluted no one understands

    U.S. Magistrate Judge John Facciola of the District of Columbia said in his ruling that courts are divided about whether the Fourth Amendment requires the government to show probable cause to obtain cell site data. He said he reviewed 87 opinions on the subject and found they were "impossible to reconcile."

    Read more: http://www.nationallawjournal.com/le...#ixzz2yhU4btJY


    We need to eliminate RAS, reasonable grounds, etc. They are mythical creatures made up by gov't officials for no reason other than to deprive the people of their rights.

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    No. They are consequences of the very words of the Fourth Amendment.

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightmare View Post
    no. They are consequences of the very words of the fourth amendment.
    ras ≠ pc.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    ras ≠ pc.
    True. They do have in common of being terms and rationalizations invented by courts.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    True. They do have in common of being terms and rationalizations invented by courts.
    That was Nightmare's point; "probable cause" is found in the 4th Amendment.

    RAS is a fabrication made out of whole cloth, however.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    That was Nightmare's point; "probable cause" is found in the 4th Amendment.

    RAS is a fabrication made out of whole cloth, however.
    Ah yes, I misspoke. PC has been greatly reduced to practically nothing by the rationalizations of the statist courts.\
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Courts have held that being nervous is suspicious and thus probable cause to search.

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    Hi Folks

    Relying on Florida v Royer, 460 U.S. 491 (1983) the court explained that although police have the right to approach individuals and ask questions, the individual has no obligation to respond. The person may decline to answer and simply go on his or her way, and the refusal to respond,alone, does not provide a legitimate basis for an investigative stop...
    The court then determined that flight may simply be an exercise of this right to " go on one's way," and , thus, could not constitute reasonable suspicion justifying a Terry stop. { 183 Ill 2nd} at 312...........

    While " reasonable suspicion" is a less demanding standard than probable cause and requires a showing considerable less than preponderance of the evidence, the Fourth Amendment requires at least a minimal level of objective justification for making the stop... The Officer must be able to articulate more than an " inchoate and unparticularized suspicion or "hunch" of criminal activity.. Terry,supra.

    Regards

    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

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    The legal way around reasonable suspicion is to simply, ask if your free to go, if yes, go, if no, remain silent and request an attorney..

    Remaining silent and requesting an attorney is not an admittance of any wrong doing... You simply throw the Constitution at their feet and let them react...

    And please note, the pen is mightier then the sword.

    My .02

    Regards

    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Don't forget who can afford a lot more pens than you.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  11. #11
    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    SNIP...We need to eliminate RAS, reasonable grounds, etc. They are mythical creatures made up by gov't officials for no reason other than to deprive the people of their rights.
    You can't control an armed citizenry, so you simply lower the bar and muddy the waters to make everyone a criminal.
    These tactics are not meant to promote safety, they are about control over us mere citizens.
    Last edited by Rusty Young Man; 04-13-2014 at 07:27 PM.
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke

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