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Thread: Very anti OC website "ActiveResponseTraining" dot net

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    Very anti OC website "ActiveResponseTraining" dot net

    Has anyone here stumbled on to the blog/website ActiveResponseTraining dot net?

    I was trying to find if there was any known event where an OC'er had their gun grabbed from them, as people often parrot to me when they are defending their opposition to OC and this site came up.
    it is definitely pretty negative towards OC in all forms.

    What do you think when you see that sort of stuff?

    I was disappointed in what this person or people wrote on their page and wanted to get some perspective from other OC forum folks.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    From the website (http://www.activeresponsetraining.ne...f-open-carry):
    Quote Originally Posted by the website
    THE PERILS OF OPEN CARRY

    Written by: Greg Ellifritz
    ...

    Did you know this was legal activity?
    It’s rare, but occasionally you will see someone carrying openly. Most do it as a political statement. They are trying to raise awareness for better concealed carry laws and promote the idea that guns can and should be safely carried by anyone who wants to. I applaud the gun rights activism. I think people should recognize that guns are not necessarily bad and get used to “normal” people carrying them.

    This article got me contemplating the issue:

    "Unarmed man attempts to rob EMU student of holstered gun"

    I’ve come to the conclusion that open carry just isn’t a very good idea most of the time.
    ...
    Open carry can lead to numerous problems. As a cop responding to calls about this activity and as a person who carries a concealed handgun everywhere, I have a unique insight. Here are some of the issues:

    1) Open carry will cause hassles with other people and eventually the police....

    Who wants to deal with that when you can simply cover your gun?


    2) Criminals may not be deterred by openly carried guns. For an obvious example of this, look at the article linked above. That guy just waited for the gun carrier to look the other direction and he attacked, trying to rip the gun out of the holster. Any serious violent criminal who has been in the game for awhile knows how to check the crowd before he commits the crime. He’s looking for witnesses, cops, security guards, and anyone who will likely intervene. If he finds one of those people, he deals with them FIRST, then he goes on to commit the crime.

    The armed robber (who has his gun concealed) could just shoot you in the back of the head before moving on to take the cash. Or he might do worse…what if he takes your child hostage and orders you to give up your gun? Most people don’t think about that possibility....

    Keep your cards hidden. That gives you multiple response options. Once the armed criminals know you are packing, you’ll be the first one shot.


    3) Getting your gun taken away is always possible!....


    4) Most people who carry guns have crappy holsters and no weapon retention skills. I teach force-on-force fighting skills to cops and citizens. In those courses, I teach my students what to do if someone grabs their holstered gun. Even after multiple days of training, the students still have trouble retaining their firearm in a surprise attack. Most pistol packers don’t even have the benefit of this kind of training.

    Think about this for a second. You are open carrying a gun on your right hip. I walk up to you and engage you in casual conversation…something like “Hey! Don’t our kids go to the same school?” As you are trying to figure out who I am, I move closer and I grab your right hand with my right hand and pin it to my chest. You struggle, but because I’m stronger, you can’t free yourself. As soon as I have the arm controlled, I grab your holstered pistol with my left hand. How are you going to stop that?

    I’ve done that scenario on dozens of students. It almost always works. I end up with their gun and they have a puzzled look on their face....

    Your carry method may be legal, but it may also cost you your life.
    Last edited by Rusty Young Man; 04-12-2014 at 03:28 PM. Reason: Removing asterisks
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke

  3. #3
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Silly statement right off the bat, most don't carry openly to promote carrying concealed.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    There was a guy in Milwaukee a couple of years ago that had his gun taken away. Alone not paying attention a couple of thugs came up behind him and took it. I don't remember anything else. That is the only one I have heard of. If it was a common event we would hear about it here.

  5. #5
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizz272 View Post
    There was a guy in Milwaukee a couple of years ago that had his gun taken away. Alone not paying attention a couple of thugs came up behind him and took it. I don't remember anything else. That is the only one I have heard of. If it was a common event we would hear about it here.
    That may have been the one guy who was OC to try to CC.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  6. #6
    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    First off, he's pushing the "CC doesn't make you a target". Already discredited.

    Second, he tries to give the impression that violent criminals have the soldier mentality. Already discredited.

    Third, I love how he equates possiblity with likelihood:
    "Getting your gun taken away is always possible"

    I wholly agree with this statement. It is POSSIBLE ("CAN happen", if only once) just like it is possible that:
    1) No other frat boys at the University of Arizona will be arrested for disturbing the peace or underage drinking.
    2) Angelina Jolie will fall in love with me and together we can promote TRUE gun safety through firearms education and range time.
    3) I will win the lottery and can finally buy the toys and ammo I've been asking Santa for.

    He then makes a blanket statement about holsters and retention techniques. Even HE admits the disarming exercise didn't always work.

    The fallacies and flaws in the article can be ripped to shreds within the hour.
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke

  7. #7
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Great post Rusty!
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    There is some sort of reward available IIRC for an adequately supported citation of a simple gun grab. PM the moderator for details.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    There is some sort of reward available IIRC for an adequately supported citation of a simple gun grab. PM the moderator for details.
    Never has been a monetary reward - you guys would just set something up and split the take

    There has been a simple challenge for one (1) confirmable w/cite of anywhere in the USA in modern times where an OCer has his/her gun snatched. Note that military, LEOs, and security officers are not to be considered. Many have tried to offer claims - all have failed, proved to be false, etc.

    Routinely close out with a statement that it will probably happen some day, but when it does the resulting decimal relationship will be something like .000001% vs the OC events where this does not, has not happened.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  10. #10
    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    Apparently I'm not carrying for self defense. I'm glad somebody finally told me.

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    After reading a bunch of his articles, the author appears to be a trainer and an LEO or former LEO. He writes pretty well and some of the articles are decent to pretty good. Got me thinking about a lot of situations and training and responses.

    But I don't agree with his stance on OC.

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    Follow the money to P4P, privileges perquisites for permittees.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wimwag View Post
    Apparently I'm not carrying for self defense. I'm glad somebody finally told me.
    Apparently the only difference between carrying for attention and carrying for self defense is whether the thin sheet of cotton you're wearing on your torso falls to the inside of the pistol or the outside. Who knew such a subtle difference had such a drastic implication?
    Advocate freedom please

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    I actually prefer to open carry, however unfortunately i mostly conceal carry simply because it's more convenient day to day.

    Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk
    Last edited by cds0699; 04-13-2014 at 01:41 PM.
    Using Tapatalk

  15. #15
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cds0699 View Post
    I actually prefer to open carry, however unfortunately i mostly conceal carry simply because it's more convenient day to day.

    Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk
    How so? Type of clothes?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  16. #16
    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cds0699 View Post
    I actually prefer to open carry, however unfortunately i mostly conceal carry simply because it's more convenient day to day.

    Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk

    ??? I find OC much more comfortable and honest than CC.

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    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    Apparently the only difference between carrying for attention and carrying for self defense is whether the thin sheet of cotton you're wearing on your torso falls to the inside of the pistol or the outside. Who knew such a subtle difference had such a drastic implication?

    Does this make me an attention *****? I wondered why nobody likes Gregg Elfritz. Now I know.

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    Think about this for a second. You are open carrying a gun on your right hip. I walk up to you and engage you in casual conversation…something like “Hey! Don’t our kids go to the same school?” As you are trying to figure out who I am, I move closer and I grab your right hand with my right hand and pin it to my chest. You struggle, but because I’m stronger, you can’t free yourself. As soon as I have the arm controlled, I grab your holstered pistol with my left hand. How are you going to stop that?
    *Good grief*

    I suppose I could be struck by lightning, three times, in the same spot, on the same day. I'm fairly confident, in the last one hundred years or so, someone, somewhere in the US, had his or her openly carried gun grabbed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    How so? Type of clothes?
    Just normal jeans and a t shirt, and yeah oc is more physically comfortable but is more of a hassle sometimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by wimwag View Post
    ??? I find OC much more comfortable and honest than CC.
    What I mean by comfort is ease of hassle and I don't have to worry about reactions from people. I don't have time to be delayed by responding to questions and such. I still oc whenever I can.

    Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk
    Using Tapatalk

  20. #20
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cds0699 View Post
    Just normal jeans and a t shirt, and yeah oc is more physically comfortable but is more of a hassle sometimes.



    What I mean by comfort is ease of hassle and I don't have to worry about reactions from people. I don't have time to be delayed by responding to questions and such. I still oc whenever I can.

    Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk
    Thank you for the clarification. The only real hassle I got was from cops, I felt that was worth it. Protecting rights won't always be hassle free.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  21. #21
    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    SNIP... Protecting rights won't always be hassle free.
    But doesn't that speak more to how valuable Rights are?

    "I prefer dangerous Freedom over peaceful slavery." - Thomas Jefferson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.” - Patrick Henry, in a speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention (5 June 1778)
    Last edited by Rusty Young Man; 04-13-2014 at 07:21 PM.
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke

  22. #22
    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cds0699 View Post
    Just normal jeans and a t shirt, and yeah oc is more physically comfortable but is more of a hassle sometimes.



    What I mean by comfort is ease of hassle and I don't have to worry about reactions from people. I don't have time to be delayed by responding to questions and such. I still oc whenever I can.

    Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk



    You are under no obligation to explain yourself. I do, but its because I want to. I don't spend much time worrying about what others think of me or what I'm doing.

  23. #23
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Young Man View Post
    But doesn't that speak more to how valuable Rights are?

    "I prefer dangerous Freedom over peaceful slavery." - Thomas Jefferson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.” - Patrick Henry, in a speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention (5 June 1778)
    +1 Yep and why it may be "uncomfortable" in standing up for them, but well worth the effort.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Young Man View Post
    ...just like it is possible that:
    1) No other frat boys at the University of Arizona will be arrested for disturbing the peace or underage drinking.
    2) Angelina Jolie will fall in love with me and together we can promote TRUE gun safety through firearms education and range time.
    3) I will win the lottery and can finally buy the toys and ammo I've been asking Santa for.

    I enjoyed this response and had a good laugh.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Young Man View Post
    But doesn't that speak more to how valuable Rights are?

    "I prefer dangerous Freedom over peaceful slavery." - Thomas Jefferson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.” - Patrick Henry, in a speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention (5 June 1778)
    Excellent quotes. You cull some good historic meat for my brain.
    Where have the fire brand freedom lovers gone? These are the politicians we need!

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