Very anti OC website "ActiveResponseTraining" dot net

Rusty Young Man said:

But doesn't that speak more to how valuable Rights are?

"I prefer dangerous Freedom over peaceful slavery." - Thomas Jefferson

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.” - Patrick Henry, in a speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention (5 June 1778)

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+1 Yep and why it may be "uncomfortable" in standing up for them, but well worth the effort.

Rusty Young Man said:

...just like it is possible that:
1) No other frat boys at the University of Arizona will be arrested for disturbing the peace or underage drinking.
2) Angelina Jolie will fall in love with me and together we can promote TRUE gun safety through firearms education and range time.
3) I will win the lottery and can finally buy the toys and ammo I've been asking Santa for.

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I enjoyed this response and had a good laugh.

Rusty Young Man said:

But doesn't that speak more to how valuable Rights are?

"I prefer dangerous Freedom over peaceful slavery." - Thomas Jefferson

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.” - Patrick Henry, in a speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention (5 June 1778)

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Excellent quotes. You cull some good historic meat for my brain.
Where have the fire brand freedom lovers gone? These are the politicians we need!

Grapeshot said:

Never has been a monetary reward - you guys would just set something up and split the take :lol:

There has been a simple challenge for one (1) confirmable w/cite of anywhere in the USA in modern times where an OCer has his/her gun snatched. Note that military, LEOs, and security officers are not to be considered. Many have tried to offer claims - all have failed, proved to be false, etc.

Routinely close out with a statement that it will probably happen some day, but when it does the resulting decimal relationship will be something like .000001% vs the OC events where this does not, has not happened.

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The author's article has been published and promoted on Facebook by the Buckeye Firearms Association: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/perils-open-carry

I commented on their Facebook post that surely BFA would contact the founders of OCDO for a reply. Don't hold your breath though.

VERY disappointing.

Think about this for a second. You are open carrying a gun on your right hip. I walk up to you and engage you in casual conversation…something like “Hey! Don’t our kids go to the same school?” As you are trying to figure out who I am, I move closer and I grab your right hand with my right hand and pin it to my chest. You struggle, but because I’m stronger, you can’t free yourself. As soon as I have the arm controlled, I grab your holstered pistol with my left hand. How are you going to stop that?

And just what do you think I am going to be doing with my left hand? Are you really sure that I do not carry a back up? Either another gun, a knife, or something that will either be lethal or will make you wish you were dead. And what makes this person think I am going to let him get that close to me to start with? And we haven't even talked about what I am going to be doing with my knees, elbows, feet, or any other part of my anatomy that I can use to inflict damage on an attacker. One does not have to have martial arts training to be able to do a lot of damage.

There's just so much wrong with that writer's suppositions that I can't begin to cover them all. I will give you this cite: State vs Reid (1840) in which the Supreme Court of the State of Alabama stated that the open carry of a firearm was defensive in nature and quoted a statute passed to "suppress the evil practice of carrying a concealed firearm."

Granted that ruling does not apply to other states, but it does express very well an opinion of concealed carry!:lol:

SFCRetired said:

[/I][/COLOR]And just what do you think I am going to be doing with my left hand? <snip>:lol:

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+100


You're not going to pull a knife and stick it into my neck? But our kids are friends !!! Arggggh.

Awwww. you're not playing the game right....start again

...your blind and I ask you if I know you....

Grapeshot said:

Never has been a monetary reward - you guys would just set something up and split the take :lol:

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I'm kinda curious now how difficult it would be to snatch a gun from one of you guys. Kinda want to set up an OC event where everyone carries those blue trainers and have a random person try a snatch. :lol:

Jack House said:

I'm kinda curious now how difficult it would be to snatch a gun from one of you guys. Kinda want to set up an OC event where everyone carries those blue trainers and have a random person try a snatch. :lol:

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Its a lot easier to snatch a weapon when you know its a game and one isn't going to be shot for trying or injured by knees elbows and or other weapons.

In training one has to be very careful that your students do not get carried away and cause broken bones etc..

Snatching some ones weapon or defending against a snatch is very dynamic and could result in either party getting hurt.

Jack House said:

I'm kinda curious now how difficult it would be to snatch a gun from one of you guys. Kinda want to set up an OC event where everyone carries those blue trainers and have a random person try a snatch. :lol:

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Might want to get a very strong release of liability signed by all - I guarantee someone is going to get hurt.

Firearms Iinstuctor said:

Its a lot easier to snatch a weapon when you know its a game and one isn't going to be shot for trying or injured by knees elbows and or other weapons.

In training one has to be very careful that your students do not get carried away and cause broken bones etc..

Snatching some ones weapon or defending against a snatch is very dynamic and could result in either party getting hurt.

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I never said it would be easy, I said I wondered how difficult. Also, you seem to be under the impression that I feel as though my scenario would be a likely one to occur out in the wild. I do not. For many reasons. As an OCer, I am somewhat familiar with retention holsters, I doubt most criminals are. Especially the kind that want to try to pick guns off people all willynilly. For another, this would involve quite a bit of planning before hand.

It's not about what can happen in reality, more along the lines of what I can do with meticulous planning and effort. Kinda like a locksmith that has a hobby of cracking safes just to see if he can.

Often times while chilling with a friend I'll take their phone or wallet or something else and slip it in my pocket just to see how long till they notice. Sometimes I do the opposite. It's all mind games to me and I love playing mind games.

Grapeshot said:

Might want to get a very strong release of liability signed by all - I guarantee someone is going to get hurt.

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I agree! But for what it's worth, if I were to actually do something like this, it would be more "could I grab the gun before they notice?" and as such, the moment they try to stop me would be the moment I gave up.

As I said, this isn't about training or preparing for real gun grabs. More that I am curious if I'd be able to get someone to let their guard down long enough for me to snatch their gun. Even more challenging with them expecting it. :lol:

If a firearms carrier, OC or CC, is so poor on his/her situational awareness that they let you get close enough to grab their gun, then they do not need to be carrying a firearm. Your head is supposed to be just like a fighter pilot's; on a constant swivel and looking all around you. You are not supposed to be yakking on a cell phone, texting whoever, or engaging in a PDA while you are out carrying.

This is one of the major problems I have with some, not all, of my lovely bride's countrymen. Their comfort zone is a lot closer than the average American's, let alone the firearms carrier. I have to ask some of them to back up just a tad. They're all nice folks, I love them and love being around them, but their culture is quite different. FWIW, theirs is not the only culture that likes to get really close when talking to someone.

Someone WILL get hurt, because even in a controlled experiment, the reaction must be swift and effective. Anyone who has taken martial arts training of any kind knows that -- when learning techniques -- we start off in a slow and measured pace to learn all of the fundamentals of that technique, and then develop speed once muscle memory has been established. In your experiment, the reaction time in response to an attempt to grab a firearm must be minimal and with sufficient force to defeat the grab. One cannot do that without risking doing actual harm.

As an example, a number of years ago I was walking along Bourbon Street in New Orleans when a friend of mine quietly walked up behind me, stuck his finger in my back and growled "gimme your wallet." I had to apologize as I was lifting him up off the pavement, with him nursing a twisted wrist and shoulder. Had I been carrying a knife (as I always do today on the weak side), the result could have been more tragic.

Even I was surprised at how quickly I reacted to the perceived threat and how my muscle memory accomplished the techniques I had learned, without my even thinking. These days, older and slower, I depend more on enhanced Situational Awareness.

I am remnded that "You'd sooner try to grab a rattlesnake's tongue!" :uhoh:

JamesCanby said:

Even I was surprised at how quickly I reacted to the perceived threat and how my muscle memory accomplished the techniques I had learned, without my even thinking. These days, older and slower, I depend more on enhanced Situational Awareness.

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There are some people who you can joke around with other tend to hurt you if surprised them.

My son's 1/2 speed instruction hurts considerably....but I always get a "Sorry dad." - that helps

Ah, yes ... I well remember the day when my youngest son bested me in arm wrestling ... which was the day that I stopped contending physically with my sons and began the process of dazzling them with my intellect ... and now I find that I've overestimated that ability as well... the torch has been passed ... but I still shoot better than they do. ;-)

Grapeshot said:

Might want to get a very strong release of liability signed by all - I guarantee someone is going to get hurt.

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Some of us have a lifetime of martial arts training. Have you lawyer sign a waiver as well. Start looking at prosthetics. Once I pop that elbow its done.

Grapeshot said:

I am remnded that "You'd sooner try to grab a rattlesnake's tongue!" :uhoh:

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I've got rattlesnakes barehanded before. There's no challenge if there's no risk of injury.

Jack House said:

I've got rattlesnakes barehanded before. There's no challenge if there's no risk of injury.

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And how many rattlesnake tongues have you caught in this manner?

Personally I prefer too just shoot rattle snakes.

The last one I shot was a 5 footer on a Texas pig hunt took a 315 gr hard cast 44 slug on the tip of its nose.

Was a good snake after that.