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Thread: "May i see your HCP permit?"

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    Regular Member Kopis's Avatar
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    "May i see your HCP permit?"

    I rode to the downtown memphis starbucks sunday morning with my girl for some coffee. I am an AR resident with CCW permit. AR has recently passed a law that removed "Concealed" from the definition of carrying on a journey but the state police and state attorney are holding fast that OC is still not permitted. Anyway, i dont worry too much on the bike about my gun showing but on the bridge from west memphis to memphis, there are often several troopers or highway patrol sitting alone the side of the interstate so i kept pulling my shirt down as i saw them. Once i made it across the bridge, i dont worry about it.

    I was carrying my Kimber in a milt sparks IWB but my tee shirt had become stuck inside my pants on the ride so i was OCing (which i knew and wasnt worried about). Anyway, i was standing in line at starbucks and i see two MPDs come in behind me. I could hear them discussing my firearm for a second before the guy said "do you have a carry permit and can i see it"? or something along those lines. I was still holding my helmet and gloves in my left hand so i said "yeah sure hold this for me", he promptly stuck his hands out and held my helmet which i thought was rather stupid but whatever. Anyway, fished out my CCW permit and gave it to him. the female cop then asked if i had a drivers license as well. I REALLY was tempted to push it a little but it happened so suddenly, i wasnt able to turn my phone on so i just gave him that too. She inspected them both and clearly wanted to engage me further but he just handed them back and said thanks man. We talked about my gun for a few minutes after that. It's a Pro Raptor, pretty sweet looking actually, he said he was digging it and we parted ways.

    The one other thought i had is that when i usually OC, it's my G17 in a comptac OTW straight drop holster with a spare mag or two. I wonder if he would have asked had i been carrying a "more professional" firearm in an OTW holster instead of having it tucked in my IWB holster? Having my 1911 stuffed in my waistband may have looked like some veiled attempt to hide it in his mind.

  2. #2
    Regular Member independence's Avatar
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    Wow. Interesting. Always have your phone or some other device recording or ready to record. Especially when OCing in the city. Around my rurul area the cops yawn when they see OC...At least so far...

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    Last edited by independence; 04-14-2014 at 11:11 AM.
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    Regular Member independence's Avatar
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    I love the "hold this for me" thing, btw...ROTFLOL!!! Way to take ownership of the situation...hahahaha

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    Regular Member Kopis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by independence View Post
    I love the "hold this for me" thing, btw...ROTFLOL!!! Way to take ownership of the situation...hahahaha
    .
    lol, yeah it definitely put him at a serious tactical disadvantage.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    I am of the belief that many, if not most officers are taught in the academy to 'always be in charge of the situation'. In an arrest or detention, I'm fine with that. But if we are having a 'consensual encounter' I am going to do all I can to make sure it's understood that I Am the One in Charge of the conversation if the officer wants to have one.

    I have no qualms about asking if I'm under arrest or being detained, no worries about asking if I'm free to go. Heck, I'll even make, as a condition of having a conversation, the officer repeat the phrase, "I am Officer So-and-so, and I am Not in charge of this conversation."

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    Regular Member Fallguy's Avatar
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    Although it's not looking good.....If OC without a permit passes in TN, I wonder how LEOs will handle similar situations?
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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    I find it kind of amusing that those that have money to lose by not being able to sell training for a permit would venture to say they are against it. How transperant. The example of the OK corral always comes up, the wild west in the streets, yada yada. In 30 other states its legal to openly carry a firearm and yet they never accept that it just doesn't happen. Blood does not flow in the streets and people are not running from cover to cover to go anywhere. The old lies will not die. We can openly carry now in TN but carry is by permit only here, which needs to change. Prime example is the OP's story here. Just carrying is RAS and LEO's can ask for permit and DL, for doing nothing but exercising your rights. We need constitutional carry here period.

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    Regular Member Kopis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken56 View Post
    I find it kind of amusing that those that have money to lose by not being able to sell training for a permit would venture to say they are against it. How transperant. The example of the OK corral always comes up, the wild west in the streets, yada yada. In 30 other states its legal to openly carry a firearm and yet they never accept that it just doesn't happen. Blood does not flow in the streets and people are not running from cover to cover to go anywhere. The old lies will not die. We can openly carry now in TN but carry is by permit only here, which needs to change. Prime example is the OP's story here. Just carrying is RAS and LEO's can ask for permit and DL, for doing nothing but exercising your rights. We need constitutional carry here period.
    I too am surprised by how many people act like the world will collapse. MS just went constitutional carry last year without an issue. Just before it happened i asked four LEOs i saw in southaven about the new law and any new training. They bluntly responded that women and children would run in fear/panic if i OCed, OCing is just to intimidate people and ill be the first one shot. Strangely, none of that happened.

    I have an old vet that works with me and he is always very pro 2a but he was saying this morning how just ANYONE would be able to carry and we wont be able to tell bad guys from good etc. I rebuttled... when have you seen a criminal with a holstered firearm? uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

    then he said, they'll be carrying around a bunch of stolen guns.... i was like wtf are you even talking about? what idiot would intentionally OC a stolen firearm?



    The more i think about it, my experience is a prime example of why i support constitutional carry. I was just standing in line at starbucks when i was stopped by these officers. I wasnt threatening anyone or doing anything remotely wrong. The experience was quick and painless but that is often not the case..... Luckily my charming smile won them over. Had it not been for that..... no telling how it wouldve ended.
    Last edited by Kopis; 04-14-2014 at 03:42 PM.

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    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    lolol "may I"

    Silly officer, you don't need to ask. The 4th Amendment doesn't apply to gun owners and their IDs in Tennessee.
    Last edited by SovereignAxe; 04-15-2014 at 03:45 PM.
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    I still cant figure out why the officer's ask you for your DL, I thought you were standing in line not driving in line...

    Did they ask anyone else for their DL? Maybe the guy with the long hair and the tat's? Or the person wearing the tee shirt with the big skull on front.

    What did you gain from this encounter? I am confused.

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    Regular Member Fallguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    I still cant figure out why the officer's ask you for your DL, I thought you were standing in line not driving in line...

    Did they ask anyone else for their DL? Maybe the guy with the long hair and the tat's? Or the person wearing the tee shirt with the big skull on front.

    What did you gain from this encounter? I am confused.

    Regards

    CCJ
    What to Arkansas carry permits look like? Do they have a photo? May not have been enough for an ID?
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    I still cant figure out why the officer's ask you for your DL, I thought you were standing in line not driving in line...

    Did they ask anyone else for their DL? Maybe the guy with the long hair and the tat's? Or the person wearing the tee shirt with the big skull on front.

    What did you gain from this encounter? I am confused.

    Regards

    CCJ
    TN LEOs are probably used to having DL numbers since all CCW/permits have your DL number on it, they are one and the same. Doesn't excuse asking for it IMO.

    I hate TN's "gun = RAS" laws, it needs to change CCarry.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Fallguy's Avatar
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    From the back side of the Arkansas CHCL

    "When carrying a concealed handgun the licensee must posses this license along with an official form of photo identification..."

    http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/arkansas.pdf
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallguy View Post
    From the back side of the Arkansas CHCL
    "When carrying a concealed handgun the licensee must posses this license along with an official form of photo identification..."
    Another good reason to invest in a passport card.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FTG-05 View Post
    TN LEOs are probably used to having DL numbers since all CCW/permits have your DL number on it, they are one and the same. Doesn't excuse asking for it IMO.

    I hate TN's "gun = RAS" laws, it needs to change CCarry.
    As gun friendly TN professes to be they have some of the most unconstitutional laws on the books in my opinion. With conservatives in control here you would think it would be easy to change the laws, but I must be wishing for the impossible. Haslam is a RINO and I would bet he would veto any such legislation to move to constitutional carry. The 2A gives us the right to bear arms but the TN constitution gives the state the athority to "regulate" the wearing of arms. So therefore we are criminals if we set foot off our own property armed. Where does that leave those that don't own property? They are forced to get a $115 permit plus pay for the training to get it. Anyone who wishes to have a tool to defend themselves while off their own property are forced to get a permit and pay for the associated training to get it, almost $200 bucks in all.

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    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken56 View Post
    As gun friendly TN professes to be they have some of the most unconstitutional laws on the books in my opinion. With conservatives in control here you would think it would be easy to change the laws, but I must be wishing for the impossible. Haslam is a RINO and I would bet he would veto any such legislation to move to constitutional carry. The 2A gives us the right to bear arms but the TN constitution gives the state the athority to "regulate" the wearing of arms. So therefore we are criminals if we set foot off our own property armed. Where does that leave those that don't own property? They are forced to get a $115 permit plus pay for the training to get it. Anyone who wishes to have a tool to defend themselves while off their own property are forced to get a permit and pay for the associated training to get it, almost $200 bucks in all.
    Agreed. TN law makes carrying a loaded handgun illegal-even with your permit. Unconstitutional. TN law requires that any permit holder that is armed to display their permit to any LEO who asks for it-even without RAS of a crime. Unconstitutional.

    I would even go so far as to say charging people $110 to be able to practice a constitutionally protected right is unconstitutional, but I digress. We tried to get unlicensed OC passed last week but it got shot down in a finance committee when they tried to claim that changing the wording on the card from "Handgun Carry Permit" to "Conceal Carry Permit" was somehow going to cost the state $100,000.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignAxe View Post
    Agreed. TN law makes carrying a loaded handgun illegal-even with your permit. Unconstitutional. TN law requires that any permit holder that is armed to display their permit to any LEO who asks for it-even without RAS of a crime. Unconstitutional.

    I would even go so far as to say charging people $110 to be able to practice a constitutionally protected right is unconstitutional, but I digress. We tried to get unlicensed OC passed last week but it got shot down in a finance committee when they tried to claim that changing the wording on the card from "Handgun Carry Permit" to "Conceal Carry Permit" was somehow going to cost the state $100,000.
    &

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken56 View Post
    As gun friendly TN professes to be ....
    "We" didn't give ourselves the "Patron State of Shootin' Stuff" moniker. I'm afraid that movie has overblown others' assumptions of how gun friendly it is here.

    Don't get me wrong, we're practically floating off the ground with firearm freedom compared to many states, but not necessarily in comparison with just some of our neighbors in some respects.

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    Last edited by Oh Shoot; 04-17-2014 at 11:24 PM.

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    Regular Member F350's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FTG-05 View Post
    TN LEOs are probably used to having DL numbers since all CCW/permits have your DL number on it, they are one and the same. Doesn't excuse asking for it IMO.

    I hate TN's "gun = RAS" laws, it needs to change CCarry.
    Too late to look for actual court case but...

    [T]he U.S. Supreme Court in 2000 ruled that an anonymous tip that a person is carrying a gun is not sufficient to justify a police officer’s stop and frisk of that person…. The Court declined to adopt the “firearms exception” to Terry’s requirement of reasonable suspicion. Similarly, in another 2000 Supreme Court case, an anonymous tip with a physical description and location that a person had a gun was not enough for reasonable suspicion, absent anything else to arouse the officer’s suspicion.

    Doesn't much matter what TN law says.

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    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    Too late to look for actual court case but...

    [T]he U.S. Supreme Court in 2000 ruled that an anonymous tip that a person is carrying a gun is not sufficient to justify a police officer’s stop and frisk of that person…. The Court declined to adopt the “firearms exception” to Terry’s requirement of reasonable suspicion. Similarly, in another 2000 Supreme Court case, an anonymous tip with a physical description and location that a person had a gun was not enough for reasonable suspicion, absent anything else to arouse the officer’s suspicion.

    Doesn't much matter what TN law says.
    It's not RAS to stop and frisk us, but just knowing we have a gun is RAS to ask us for the permit. If you're lumping that in though, tell me it doesn't matter when you refuse to show your permit to LEO and they arrest you for breaking that law.

    Go ahead. Be the test case, and then have it go through the courts to get it overturned. You'd be doing us all a favor!
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    If a permit is required to OC, show the darn permit, while recording the interaction.

    Laws can change faster when the state has to pay citizens for the unlawful acts of their employees. If LACs are getting harassed by cops for OC and the state/county/city has to keep writing check to folks who were not breaking the law then the law that requires the permit is more easily repealed, or clarified.

    Here in Missouri we are attempting to change the law to permit OC via permit (not the best outcome, but better given RSMo 21.750.3) and as such the legislation included verbiage that OC is not RAS, per se, and that the firearm cannot be confiscated for "officer safety" or the citizen physically restrained (cuffed?).

    ...(c) In the absence of any reasonable and articulable suspicion of criminal activity, no person carrying a concealed or unconcealed firearm shall be disarmed or physically restrained by a law enforcement officer unless under arrest;...
    Follow the law, even if it sucks, and work to change the law via the courts or legislature.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    If a permit is required to OC, show the darn permit, while recording the interaction.

    Laws can change faster when the state has to pay citizens for the unlawful acts of their employees. If LACs are getting harassed by cops for OC and the state/county/city has to keep writing check to folks who were not breaking the law then the law that requires the permit is more easily repealed, or clarified.

    Here in Missouri we are attempting to change the law to permit OC via permit (not the best outcome, but better given RSMo 21.750.3) and as such the legislation included verbiage that OC is not RAS, per se, and that the firearm cannot be confiscated for "officer safety" or the citizen physically restrained (cuffed?).

    Follow the law, even if it sucks, and work to change the law via the courts or legislature.
    See, that's the thing. In Tennessee, with a few narrow exceptions, being in possession of a firearm is illegal. PERIOD. Being in your own home or having a handgun carry permit is a defense to the charge, not an exception. This means that, even if you do have a permit or are in your home, an officer could still in theory arrest you. Once charged, the prosecutor could force your case to go to trial, where you would have to show your handgun carry permit or your house deed to the jury. Then, once you're acquitted, an officer could in theory follow you to the evidence room where you would reclaim your weapon, re-arrest you once it's in your possession, and start the above process all over again.

    Now, thankfully, I'm not aware of any instances of that actually happening. But, it could happen the way Tennessee law is currently written.
    "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty."
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    Nascar is correct here and that is what others from other states don't get. Here in TN it is illegal to posess/carry a firearm, loaded or unloaded unless in transport mode (cased and unloaded in your trunk or secured otherwise) in public. We can carry in our own home or on property we own but if we step off of that property we become criminals......unless we have paid the state for the priviledge of a handgun carry permit to exercise our god given right. And yes, it is a defence, not an exception to the law as written now. I am a transplant to TN from MI and MI is a traditional open carry state, meaning there are no laws against openly carrying a firearm with no licencing needed what so ever, there is no law against it so it is legal. Not so in TN. There is a law against it so........you must pay the state to exercise your rights. Unbelievable I know. The TN HCP allows for concealed OR open carry, and LEOs mostly do not mess with people who do openly carry. I have not yet had the pleasure of an interaction as yet. Most folks don't care if your openly carrying, atleast where I am at, cuz they are probably carrying concealed.

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    Regular Member cjohnson44546's Avatar
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    What needs to be fixed in TN is that "No Gun" signs carry the weight of law... that is ridiculous. Should all signs put up on private property carry the weight of law? "No outside food or drinks allowed" uh oh, I'm getting arrested because I had a candy bar in my pocket... "No Cameras" oh no I'm getting arrested for having my phone with me... No one should be able to put up a sign on their property that has weight of law to it. I am all for the owner to be able to kick someone off their property and having people charged with trespassing if they refuse... but they should have to directly tell that person to get lost, not some blanket statement sign that causes a person to be a criminal. This is my biggest fear if the Open Carry law had passed... hundreds or thousands of new "no gun" signs going up all over the place...

    Some people I know say they ignore the signs, because if they need their gun, then they need it. According to TN law, you can NEVER act in self defense if you are committing a crime. So if your committing a crime of trespassing (whether anyone knows or not), and someone attacks you, tries to kill you... and you kill them (with or without the gun your carrying), you cannot legally claim self defense, because you killed someone while committing a crime... you are now under arrest for murder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kopis View Post
    lol, yeah it definitely put him at a serious tactical disadvantage.
    At close quarters like that... a piping hot cup of coffee in your hand is not a tactical disadvantage, and thrown in the face would allow you to subdue someone really quick.

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignAxe View Post
    Agreed. TN law makes carrying a loaded handgun illegal-even with your permit. Unconstitutional. TN law requires that any permit holder that is armed to display their permit to any LEO who asks for it-even without RAS of a crime. Unconstitutional.
    thats not completely true. With a HCP you CAN carry a loaded handgun. You can also carry long guns in your vehicle, and while they can have rounds loaded in magazines, they are not allowed to have one in the chamber unless you are in the active process of defending your life. Handguns can be fully loaded and carried ready to fire, if you have a HCP.
    Last edited by cjohnson44546; 04-18-2014 at 11:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cjohnson44546 View Post


    thats not completely true. With a HCP you CAN carry a loaded handgun. You can also carry long guns in your vehicle, and while they can have rounds loaded in magazines, they are not allowed to have one in the chamber unless you are in the active process of defending your life. Handguns can be fully loaded and carried ready to fire, if you have a HCP.
    What SovereignAxe said is correct.

    Yes, the HCP "allows" you to carry a loaded handgun. But, read the statute. In most states, unlicensed carrying (concealed at least, plus openly in some others) is illegal; but, having a carry permit is an exception to the charge. Whenever an exception applies, it nullifies the illegality of the act. Further, if a defendant alleges that an exception applies, then the burden of proof is on the prosecutor to prove that the exception does not apply (for example, if a person in one of the other states is arrested for illegal carrying and claims to have a permit, a prosecutor in that state would have to prove that the permit exception did not apply, such as by proving that the permit was forged). However, in Tennessee, it is illegal to carry a gun in public without a permit; and the permit is only a defense to the charge. This has three ramifications. First, it means that the person's actions were still against the law; a defense simply gives a legally-justified reason for breaking the law. Thus, even if a person makes a police officer aware of the fact that he/she has a defense to a charge (in this case illegal carrying), the officer still has the full authority to arrest him/her (arresting a person when he/she notifies the officer of an exception to the charge could trigger legal liability for the officer based on false arrest; the same is not true when a person has a defense to a charge). Second, it effectively nullifies court precedence for RAS in Tennessee. A couple of appellate courts (and maybe even the Supreme Court) have ruled that mere possession of a weapon does not in and of itself create reasonable articulable suspicion if carrying a gun is not illegal in that state (or if it is illegal, but a permit is an exception to the charge). Since carrying a firearm is illegal even with a permit (remember, the permit is only a defense), then possession of a firearm in Tennessee automatically creates reasonable articulable suspicion for a police officer to stop and detain the carrier, ask him/her questions, and demand identification. Three, when a person has a defense to a charge rather than an exception, then the defendant has to prove his/her innocence by proving (albeit by a preponderance of the evidence, a lower standard of proof) that the defense applies.

    In practice, there's not much difference. But, because a permit is a defense rather than an exception in Tennessee, it has significant legal ramifications.
    Last edited by Nascar24Glock; 04-19-2014 at 12:57 AM.
    "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty."
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    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin

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