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"May i see your HCP permit?"

Kopis

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2013
Messages
674
Location
Nashville, TN
I rode to the downtown memphis starbucks sunday morning with my girl for some coffee. I am an AR resident with CCW permit. AR has recently passed a law that removed "Concealed" from the definition of carrying on a journey but the state police and state attorney are holding fast that OC is still not permitted. Anyway, i dont worry too much on the bike about my gun showing but on the bridge from west memphis to memphis, there are often several troopers or highway patrol sitting alone the side of the interstate so i kept pulling my shirt down as i saw them. Once i made it across the bridge, i dont worry about it.

I was carrying my Kimber in a milt sparks IWB but my tee shirt had become stuck inside my pants on the ride so i was OCing (which i knew and wasnt worried about). Anyway, i was standing in line at starbucks and i see two MPDs come in behind me. I could hear them discussing my firearm for a second before the guy said "do you have a carry permit and can i see it"? or something along those lines. I was still holding my helmet and gloves in my left hand so i said "yeah sure hold this for me", he promptly stuck his hands out and held my helmet which i thought was rather stupid but whatever. Anyway, fished out my CCW permit and gave it to him. the female cop then asked if i had a drivers license as well. I REALLY was tempted to push it a little but it happened so suddenly, i wasnt able to turn my phone on so i just gave him that too. She inspected them both and clearly wanted to engage me further but he just handed them back and said thanks man. We talked about my gun for a few minutes after that. It's a Pro Raptor, pretty sweet looking actually, he said he was digging it and we parted ways.

The one other thought i had is that when i usually OC, it's my G17 in a comptac OTW straight drop holster with a spare mag or two. I wonder if he would have asked had i been carrying a "more professional" firearm in an OTW holster instead of having it tucked in my IWB holster? Having my 1911 stuffed in my waistband may have looked like some veiled attempt to hide it in his mind.
 

independence

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2013
Messages
339
Location
Tennessee
Wow. Interesting. Always have your phone or some other device recording or ready to record. Especially when OCing in the city. Around my rurul area the cops yawn when they see OC...At least so far...

Sent from an app instead of a browser simply because browsers on mobile devices are incapable of basic usability by design so that people can sell apps.
 
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independence

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2013
Messages
339
Location
Tennessee
I love the "hold this for me" thing, btw...ROTFLOL!!! Way to take ownership of the situation...hahahaha

Sent from an app instead of a browser simply because browsers on mobile devices are incapable of basic usability by design so that people can sell apps.
 

Fallschirjmäger

Active member
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
3,823
Location
Cumming, Georgia, USA
I am of the belief that many, if not most officers are taught in the academy to 'always be in charge of the situation'. In an arrest or detention, I'm fine with that. But if we are having a 'consensual encounter' I am going to do all I can to make sure it's understood that I Am the One in Charge of the conversation if the officer wants to have one.

I have no qualms about asking if I'm under arrest or being detained, no worries about asking if I'm free to go. Heck, I'll even make, as a condition of having a conversation, the officer repeat the phrase, "I am Officer So-and-so, and I am Not in charge of this conversation."
 

Ken56

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2010
Messages
368
Location
Dandridge, TN
I find it kind of amusing that those that have money to lose by not being able to sell training for a permit would venture to say they are against it. How transperant. The example of the OK corral always comes up, the wild west in the streets, yada yada. In 30 other states its legal to openly carry a firearm and yet they never accept that it just doesn't happen. Blood does not flow in the streets and people are not running from cover to cover to go anywhere. The old lies will not die. We can openly carry now in TN but carry is by permit only here, which needs to change. Prime example is the OP's story here. Just carrying is RAS and LEO's can ask for permit and DL, for doing nothing but exercising your rights. We need constitutional carry here period.
 

Kopis

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2013
Messages
674
Location
Nashville, TN
I find it kind of amusing that those that have money to lose by not being able to sell training for a permit would venture to say they are against it. How transperant. The example of the OK corral always comes up, the wild west in the streets, yada yada. In 30 other states its legal to openly carry a firearm and yet they never accept that it just doesn't happen. Blood does not flow in the streets and people are not running from cover to cover to go anywhere. The old lies will not die. We can openly carry now in TN but carry is by permit only here, which needs to change. Prime example is the OP's story here. Just carrying is RAS and LEO's can ask for permit and DL, for doing nothing but exercising your rights. We need constitutional carry here period.

I too am surprised by how many people act like the world will collapse. MS just went constitutional carry last year without an issue. Just before it happened i asked four LEOs i saw in southaven about the new law and any new training. They bluntly responded that women and children would run in fear/panic if i OCed, OCing is just to intimidate people and ill be the first one shot. Strangely, none of that happened.

I have an old vet that works with me and he is always very pro 2a but he was saying this morning how just ANYONE would be able to carry and we wont be able to tell bad guys from good etc. I rebuttled... when have you seen a criminal with a holstered firearm? uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

then he said, they'll be carrying around a bunch of stolen guns.... i was like wtf are you even talking about? what idiot would intentionally OC a stolen firearm?



The more i think about it, my experience is a prime example of why i support constitutional carry. I was just standing in line at starbucks when i was stopped by these officers. I wasnt threatening anyone or doing anything remotely wrong. The experience was quick and painless but that is often not the case..... Luckily my charming smile won them over. Had it not been for that..... no telling how it wouldve ended.
 
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SovereignAxe

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2011
Messages
791
Location
Elizabethton, TN
lolol "may I"

Silly officer, you don't need to ask. The 4th Amendment doesn't apply to gun owners and their IDs in Tennessee.
 
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countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
I still cant figure out why the officer's ask you for your DL, I thought you were standing in line not driving in line...

Did they ask anyone else for their DL? Maybe the guy with the long hair and the tat's? Or the person wearing the tee shirt with the big skull on front.

What did you gain from this encounter? I am confused.

Regards

CCJ
 

Fallguy

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2007
Messages
715
Location
McKenzie Tennessee, USA
I still cant figure out why the officer's ask you for your DL, I thought you were standing in line not driving in line...

Did they ask anyone else for their DL? Maybe the guy with the long hair and the tat's? Or the person wearing the tee shirt with the big skull on front.

What did you gain from this encounter? I am confused.

Regards

CCJ

What to Arkansas carry permits look like? Do they have a photo? May not have been enough for an ID?
 

FTG-05

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2011
Messages
441
Location
TN
I still cant figure out why the officer's ask you for your DL, I thought you were standing in line not driving in line...

Did they ask anyone else for their DL? Maybe the guy with the long hair and the tat's? Or the person wearing the tee shirt with the big skull on front.

What did you gain from this encounter? I am confused.

Regards

CCJ

TN LEOs are probably used to having DL numbers since all CCW/permits have your DL number on it, they are one and the same. Doesn't excuse asking for it IMO.

I hate TN's "gun = RAS" laws, it needs to change CCarry.
 

Ken56

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2010
Messages
368
Location
Dandridge, TN
TN LEOs are probably used to having DL numbers since all CCW/permits have your DL number on it, they are one and the same. Doesn't excuse asking for it IMO.

I hate TN's "gun = RAS" laws, it needs to change CCarry.

As gun friendly TN professes to be they have some of the most unconstitutional laws on the books in my opinion. With conservatives in control here you would think it would be easy to change the laws, but I must be wishing for the impossible. Haslam is a RINO and I would bet he would veto any such legislation to move to constitutional carry. The 2A gives us the right to bear arms but the TN constitution gives the state the athority to "regulate" the wearing of arms. So therefore we are criminals if we set foot off our own property armed. Where does that leave those that don't own property? They are forced to get a $115 permit plus pay for the training to get it. Anyone who wishes to have a tool to defend themselves while off their own property are forced to get a permit and pay for the associated training to get it, almost $200 bucks in all.
 

SovereignAxe

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2011
Messages
791
Location
Elizabethton, TN
As gun friendly TN professes to be they have some of the most unconstitutional laws on the books in my opinion. With conservatives in control here you would think it would be easy to change the laws, but I must be wishing for the impossible. Haslam is a RINO and I would bet he would veto any such legislation to move to constitutional carry. The 2A gives us the right to bear arms but the TN constitution gives the state the athority to "regulate" the wearing of arms. So therefore we are criminals if we set foot off our own property armed. Where does that leave those that don't own property? They are forced to get a $115 permit plus pay for the training to get it. Anyone who wishes to have a tool to defend themselves while off their own property are forced to get a permit and pay for the associated training to get it, almost $200 bucks in all.

Agreed. TN law makes carrying a loaded handgun illegal-even with your permit. Unconstitutional. TN law requires that any permit holder that is armed to display their permit to any LEO who asks for it-even without RAS of a crime. Unconstitutional.

I would even go so far as to say charging people $110 to be able to practice a constitutionally protected right is unconstitutional, but I digress. We tried to get unlicensed OC passed last week but it got shot down in a finance committee when they tried to claim that changing the wording on the card from "Handgun Carry Permit" to "Conceal Carry Permit" was somehow going to cost the state $100,000.
 

FTG-05

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2011
Messages
441
Location
TN
Agreed. TN law makes carrying a loaded handgun illegal-even with your permit. Unconstitutional. TN law requires that any permit holder that is armed to display their permit to any LEO who asks for it-even without RAS of a crime. Unconstitutional.

I would even go so far as to say charging people $110 to be able to practice a constitutionally protected right is unconstitutional, but I digress. We tried to get unlicensed OC passed last week but it got shot down in a finance committee when they tried to claim that changing the wording on the card from "Handgun Carry Permit" to "Conceal Carry Permit" was somehow going to cost the state $100,000.

:mad: & :banghead:
 

Oh Shoot

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2010
Messages
184
Location
Knoxville
As gun friendly TN professes to be ....

"We" didn't give ourselves the "Patron State of Shootin' Stuff" moniker. I'm afraid that movie has overblown others' assumptions of how gun friendly it is here.

Don't get me wrong, we're practically floating off the ground with firearm freedom compared to many states, but not necessarily in comparison with just some of our neighbors in some respects.

- OS
 
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F350

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2012
Messages
941
Location
The High Plains of Wyoming
TN LEOs are probably used to having DL numbers since all CCW/permits have your DL number on it, they are one and the same. Doesn't excuse asking for it IMO.

I hate TN's "gun = RAS" laws, it needs to change CCarry.

Too late to look for actual court case but...

[T]he U.S. Supreme Court in 2000 ruled that an anonymous tip that a person is carrying a gun is not sufficient to justify a police officer’s stop and frisk of that person…. The Court declined to adopt the “firearms exception” to Terry’s requirement of reasonable suspicion. Similarly, in another 2000 Supreme Court case, an anonymous tip with a physical description and location that a person had a gun was not enough for reasonable suspicion, absent anything else to arouse the officer’s suspicion.

Doesn't much matter what TN law says.
 

SovereignAxe

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2011
Messages
791
Location
Elizabethton, TN
Too late to look for actual court case but...

[T]he U.S. Supreme Court in 2000 ruled that an anonymous tip that a person is carrying a gun is not sufficient to justify a police officer’s stop and frisk of that person…. The Court declined to adopt the “firearms exception” to Terry’s requirement of reasonable suspicion. Similarly, in another 2000 Supreme Court case, an anonymous tip with a physical description and location that a person had a gun was not enough for reasonable suspicion, absent anything else to arouse the officer’s suspicion.

Doesn't much matter what TN law says.

It's not RAS to stop and frisk us, but just knowing we have a gun is RAS to ask us for the permit. If you're lumping that in though, tell me it doesn't matter when you refuse to show your permit to LEO and they arrest you for breaking that law.

Go ahead. Be the test case, and then have it go through the courts to get it overturned. You'd be doing us all a favor!
 
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