Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 30

Thread: New member: School zone question

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Northern VA
    Posts
    20

    New member: School zone question

    Hello all! Ive recently been looking into open carry and have been lurking here on the forums for a few days. Lots of valuable info here! Thanks to all...

    That said, I live near a high volume of schools, making it near impossible to open carry from my home to just about any places that I frequent. My question is this: while transporting a firearm in my vehicle, without a chp, through a school zone, said firearm must be unloaded and in a LOCKED container, no exceptions. Is this the concensus? Just looking for some feedback as I have found no evidence to the contrary. Thanks in advance!

  2. #2
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580
    Quote Originally Posted by Front Royalty View Post
    Hello all! Ive recently been looking into open carry and have been lurking here on the forums for a few days. Lots of valuable info here! Thanks to all...

    That said, I live near a high volume of schools, making it near impossible to open carry from my home to just about any places that I frequent. My question is this: while transporting a firearm in my vehicle, without a chp, through a school zone, said firearm must be unloaded and in a LOCKED container, no exceptions. Is this the concensus? Just looking for some feedback as I have found no evidence to the contrary. Thanks in advance!
    Good luck!
    Without a CHP it;s illegal under Federal law to drive past a school with a gun in any manner.
    Under State law it's fine loaded or not. State law addresses ON School property.

    Back to the real world, most consider the GFZ unenforceable and since tens of thousands do it every day,that's a pretty good indicator.

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Northern VA
    Posts
    20
    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Good luck!
    Without a CHP it;s illegal under Federal law to drive past a school with a gun in any manner.
    Under State law it's fine loaded or not. State law addresses ON School property.

    Back to the real world, most consider the GFZ unenforceable and since tens of thousands do it every day,that's a pretty good indicator.
    Unreal. That makes it pretty much impossible for anyone without a chp to transport a firearm (under federal law) except in the most rural of areas. Wow.
    Last edited by Front Royalty; 04-16-2014 at 10:19 AM.

  4. #4
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705
    Quote Originally Posted by Front Royalty View Post
    Unreal. That makes it pretty much impossible for anyone without a chp to transport a firearm (under federal law) except in the most rural of areas. Wow.
    What you say is true. And in fact, even in Virginia, a CHP does not provide the "exception" required in the federal law, because the exception requires a license to possess, which Virginia does not issue. Many disagree with what the plain text of the law says, instead preferring to assume that a CHP will work, but read it yourself and see. Then read the CHP law and see that it does not authorize possession, merely exemption from the prohibition to conceal.

    Additionally, it is worthy to note that the federal law provides no exception for off-duty police officers, so any police officer that does not have a license to possess, is also in violation of the law every time they are driving within 1,000 feet of any school property while on their way to or from work.

    Bottom line, what Peter Nap said: It's a horrible law, virtually impossible to not violate in one or several ways. Don't do anything stupid, and you will very likely be just fine.

    TFred

  5. #5
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,838
    Quote Originally Posted by Front Royalty View Post
    Unreal. That makes it pretty much impossible for anyone without a chp to transport a firearm (under federal law) except in the most rural of areas. Wow.
    Well, you can file a case at your local district court if you want. You need not be arrested to attack a federal law in federal court..you can file a case prior to a charge.

  6. #6
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682
    Welcome to OCDO. Look at jpining VCDL www.vcdl.org soon. Come out to the gun shows and say "Howdy".

    About your question -

    It's very difficult to provide you with a response that is meaningful, accurate, useful, and in compliance with OCDO rules. However, if you select just one of the first 3 categories the ability to answer your question becomes a lot easier.

    Having said that, perhaps the best response is to suggest that you look at the number of LACs (Law Abiding Citizens) in Virginia that have been arrested, let alone charged and/or convicted, of violating the GFSZ act. It's a federal law and there are few times that local or State police will even bother to attempt to enforce federal law - which technically means holding you until a federal Marshal can arrive to do the actual "You are under arrest for violation of [XYZ federal law]." There was a time when some localities (infamously, City of Richmond) when folks picked up on local/state law violations were referred to the federal District Attorney for prosecution under harsher federal laws - look up "Project Exile" if you are not already familiar.

    The thing is, most cops that are going to stop you for driving in a school zone are not going to have the support of their Commonwealth Attorney for a referral to the feds for a GFSZ violation, let alone most of the feds wanting to have such referred to them.

    According to OCDO rules I can't suggest that you ignore the GFSZ law, or that you blatanly violate it. But I think I'm allowed to suggest that you consider the risk involved should you decide to flout the law. And I know I'm on solid ground encouraging you not to do anything that would give LEOs a reason to want to arrest you anywhere, for any reason.

    Paraphrasing some wise person who, if they did not actually say it should have said it: "There's no way you can get through the day without committing at least three felonies. Pick carefully the ones you are most likely to get caught for."

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  7. #7
    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Alexandria, VA at www.NoVA-MDSelfDefense.com
    Posts
    1,543
    Welcome to OCDO.

    You have received the best advice available from those knowledgeable about how Virginia law enforcement treats this federal law. Take due notice thereof and govern yourself accordingly.

    Conversely, I strongly suggest that, as a fellow citizen of the Virginia Commonwealth, that you can safely ignore the suggestions coming from those outside our boundaries.
    Air Force Veteran
    NRA Life Member
    VCDL Member
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Firearm Safety, Personal Protection
    Maryland Qualified Handgun Instructor
    Certified Instructor, Associated Gun Clubs of Baltimore, Inc.
    Member, Mt. Washington Rod & Gun Club
    National Sporting Clays Association Certified Referee

  8. #8
    Regular Member rightwinglibertarian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Seattle WA
    Posts
    881
    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Back to the real world, most consider the GFZ unenforceable and since tens of thousands do it every day,that's a pretty good indicator.

    They are unenforceable legally.

    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Many disagree with what the plain text of the law says, instead preferring to assume that a CHP will work, but read it yourself and see. Then read the CHP law and see that it does not authorize possession, merely exemption from the prohibition to conceal.

    Additionally, it is worthy to note that the federal law provides no exception for off-duty police officers, so any police officer that does not have a license to possess, is also in violation of the law every time they are driving within 1,000 feet of any school property while on their way to or from work.

    Bottom line, what Peter Nap said: It's a horrible law, virtually impossible to not violate in one or several ways. Don't do anything stupid, and you will very likely be just fine.

    TFred
    ".....the right to bear arms shall not be infringed." Any banning of firearms is illegal, null, void, does not and should not be obeyed. Private property owners may restrict and/or ban firearms but this at least in theory should cost them their business as no militia member should patronise such establishments.
    "Which part of shall not be infringed is so difficult to understand"?

    "Any and all restrictions on the bearing of arms in public places are nullified as per the Second Amendment"

    Conservative Broadcast || Google Plus profile

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Northern VA
    Posts
    20
    Thanks for all the replies gentlemen!

    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Good luck!
    Without a CHP it;s illegal under Federal law to drive past a school with a gun in any manner.
    Under State law it's fine loaded or not. State law addresses ON School property.

    Back to the real world, most consider the GFZ unenforceable and since tens of thousands do it every day,that's a pretty good indicator.
    Just want to make sure im inderstanding you correctly. Under state law, without a chp, driving through a school zone with a firearm that is in a locked container is legal, loaded or otherwise?

  10. #10
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580
    Quote Originally Posted by Front Royalty View Post
    Thanks for all the replies gentlemen!



    Just want to make sure im inderstanding you correctly. Under state law, without a chp, driving through a school zone with a firearm that is in a locked container is legal, loaded or otherwise?
    OPEN CARRY WITHOUT A CHP
    As long as you are NOT on school property, it can be loaded, unloaded, you can be wearing it, have it on the seat, in a secured container (Has a lid) or locked. Your choice.
    Last edited by peter nap; 04-16-2014 at 04:48 PM.

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Northern VA
    Posts
    20
    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    OPEN CARRY WITHOUT A CHP
    As long as you are NOT on school property, it can be loaded, unloaded, you can be wearing it, have it on the seat, in a secured container (Has a lid) or locked. Your choice.
    Well now I FEEL better

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682
    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinglibertarian View Post
    They are unenforceable legally.

    ".....the right to bear arms shall not be infringed." Any banning of firearms is illegal, null, void, does not and should not be obeyed. Private property owners may restrict and/or ban firearms but this at least in theory should cost them their business as no militia member should patronise such establishments.
    Please provide citations for your assertion that "They are unenforcable legally".

    Seems to me that SCOTUS, as well as our own Virginia Supreme Court, have ruled many times that "reasonable restrictions" can be placed on the keeping and bearing of arms that does not amount to Constitutional infringement of the right stated in the Second Amendment.

    Or am I misunderstanding something?

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  13. #13
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682
    I'm late checking my daily blog reads so missed this earlier today -

    http://www.clintonlibrary.gov/assets...plishments.pdf

    h/t to David Hardy at http://armsandthelaw.com/archives/20...n_of_zero_.php

    Now you know where GFSZ and zero-tolerance came from. Aint education grand?

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  14. #14
    Regular Member rightwinglibertarian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Seattle WA
    Posts
    881
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Please provide citations for your assertion that "They are unenforcable legally".

    Seems to me that SCOTUS, as well as our own Virginia Supreme Court, have ruled many times that "reasonable restrictions" can be placed on the keeping and bearing of arms that does not amount to Constitutional infringement of the right stated in the Second Amendment.

    Or am I misunderstanding something?

    stay safe.

    Missing the fact that the justice system is corrupt and judges make rulings they have no right to. SCOTUS and the Virginia Supreme Court are subservient to the Constitution of the United States. Any judge making these illegal rulings should be removed and prosecuted.

    While slightly OT it goes back to the principle of personal responsibility. Rights are abused, oh we need to ban this or that. Thats a liberal mindset and the basis for the banning of firearms. The whole idea simply serves to affirm the sheeple mentality. Personal responsibility has to a large degree become a foreign concept do to government meddling and it's well known the government can't be trusted to 'protect' it's citizens.
    "Which part of shall not be infringed is so difficult to understand"?

    "Any and all restrictions on the bearing of arms in public places are nullified as per the Second Amendment"

    Conservative Broadcast || Google Plus profile

  15. #15
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682
    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinglibertarian View Post
    Missing the fact that the justice system is corrupt and judges make rulings they have no right to. SCOTUS and the Virginia Supreme Court are subservient to the Constitution of the United States. Any judge making these illegal rulings should be removed and prosecuted.

    While slightly OT it goes back to the principle of personal responsibility. Rights are abused, oh we need to ban this or that. Thats a liberal mindset and the basis for the banning of firearms. The whole idea simply serves to affirm the sheeple mentality. Personal responsibility has to a large degree become a foreign concept do to government meddling and it's well known the government can't be trusted to 'protect' it's citizens.
    Please take care that your rose-colored glasses to not break and cut you when you trip over your sophomoric, Pollyannaish world view.

    Case law exists, and case law controls - until the legislature enacts something to rearrange the fact set. Feel free to hold your views, and to act on them. Let me know what day(s) youi will be allowed visitors.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  16. #16
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Please take care that your rose-colored glasses to not break and cut you when you trip over your sophomoric, Pollyannaish world view.

    Case law exists, and case law controls - until the legislature enacts something to rearrange the fact set. Feel free to hold your views, and to act on them. Let me know what day(s) youi will be allowed visitors.

    stay safe.
    Translation Rightwing....Welcome to the REAL WORLD!

  17. #17
    Regular Member JohnM15A's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Woodbridge, VA
    Posts
    234
    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    OPEN CARRY WITHOUT A CHP
    As long as you are NOT on school property, it can be loaded, unloaded, you can be wearing it, have it on the seat, in a secured container (Has a lid) or locked. Your choice.
    What happened to the 1,000' zone specified in the federal law?
    "Just because I'm paranoid does not mean they are not out to get me"
    NRA Lifetime Member

  18. #18
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnM15A View Post
    What happened to the 1,000' zone specified in the federal law?
    Did you read the thread? I guess it's hard to keep track... we are talking about two different things, state law and federal law. The federal GFSZA is still there, as ugly as ever. If you intend to follow that law to the letter, you cannot carry a firearm in Virginia unless you are in a very rural county, in which your travels take you no where near a school. The primary concern is state law, which does not cover regulate the carry of firearms OFF school property.

    TFred

    ETA: clarification above.
    Last edited by TFred; 04-16-2014 at 11:06 PM.

  19. #19
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,838
    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    Welcome to OCDO.

    You have received the best advice available from those knowledgeable about how Virginia law enforcement treats this federal law. Take due notice thereof and govern yourself accordingly.

    Conversely, I strongly suggest that, as a fellow citizen of the Virginia Commonwealth, that you can safely ignore the suggestions coming from those outside our boundaries.
    Yeah! In in the USA .. so my federal suggestion was good, right?

    Take only advice from people who have gone through civil or criminal trials - like me !

  20. #20
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580
    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Yeah! In in the USA .. so my federal suggestion was good, right?

    Take only advice from people who have gone through civil or criminal trials - like me !
    That puts the Bar in your state in a very poor light!

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Virginia, US
    Posts
    190
    Quote Originally Posted by Front Royalty View Post
    Hello all! Ive recently been looking into open carry and have been lurking here on the forums for a few days. Lots of valuable info here! Thanks to all...

    That said, I live near a high volume of schools, making it near impossible to open carry from my home to just about any places that I frequent. My question is this: while transporting a firearm in my vehicle, without a chp, through a school zone, said firearm must be unloaded and in a LOCKED container, no exceptions. Is this the concensus? Just looking for some feedback as I have found no evidence to the contrary. Thanks in advance!
    Federal law allows you to transport a firearm unloaded in a locked container:
    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922
    18-922.(2)(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
    (iii) that is—
    (I) not loaded; and
    (II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;

    VA law allows similar, but without the "locked" stipulation:
    § 18.2-308.1. Possession of firearm, stun weapon, or other weapon on school property prohibited.
    The provisions of this section shall not apply to... (vi) a person who possesses an unloaded firearm that is in a closed container, or a knife having a metal blade, in or upon a motor vehicle, or an unloaded shotgun or rifle in a firearms rack in or upon a motor vehicle;

    IANAL
    Last edited by ChristCrusader; 04-17-2014 at 02:31 PM.
    *I am not a lawyer. Nothing from me shall be construed as a magic cloak of legal advice. It's ultimately your tucas that's on the line. Keep examining the law anyway. The gov't, made up of people like us, is supposed to work for us, not against us. Let's find, correct, and avoid the wrongs before they're actively used against us, or we become innocently trapped by them. We're to be the masters. Let's vigilantly keep tabs on our servants who seek to rule us.

  22. #22
    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Alexandria, VA at www.NoVA-MDSelfDefense.com
    Posts
    1,543
    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Yeah! In in the USA .. so my federal suggestion was good, right?

    Take only advice from people who have gone through civil or criminal trials - like me !
    No. States and Commonwealths have boundaries as well, and people living in the Commonwealth of Virginia are well advised to accept advice from those who actually live here and have studied our laws and statutes. Going "through civil or criminal trials" in other states provides no relevant advice regarding how Virginia treats infractions of federal law.
    Air Force Veteran
    NRA Life Member
    VCDL Member
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Firearm Safety, Personal Protection
    Maryland Qualified Handgun Instructor
    Certified Instructor, Associated Gun Clubs of Baltimore, Inc.
    Member, Mt. Washington Rod & Gun Club
    National Sporting Clays Association Certified Referee

  23. #23
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580
    Quote Originally Posted by ChristCrusader View Post
    Federal law allows you to transport a firearm unloaded in a locked container:
    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922
    18-922.(2)(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
    (iii) that is—
    (I) not loaded; and
    (II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;

    VA law allows similar, but without the "locked" stipulation:
    § 18.2-308.1. Possession of firearm, stun weapon, or other weapon on school property prohibited.
    The provisions of this section shall not apply to... (vi) a person who possesses an unloaded firearm that is in a closed container, or a knife having a metal blade, in or upon a motor vehicle, or an unloaded shotgun or rifle in a firearms rack in or upon a motor vehicle;

    IANAL
    As I said earlier, Virginia law only applies to ON the property.
    § 18.2-308.1. Possession of firearm, stun weapon, or other weapon on school property prohibited.

  24. #24
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    5,849
    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    As I said earlier, Virginia law only applies to ON the property.
    § 18.2-308.1. Possession of firearm, stun weapon, or other weapon on school property prohibited.
    Remember, there is an exception to this where you may carry a firearm onto school property in Virginia. You may carry a concealed handgun on your person, permit required of course, when dropping off or picking up a student or students at a school. You may not exit your vehicle while doing this.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  25. #25
    Regular Member cirrusly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    North Dakota
    Posts
    331
    If it were me, I'd abide by the laws of the Virginia Commonwealth. And those laws do not say anything about a 1000' school zone for firearms. They only address firearms on the school property.

    I have never heard of the GFSZA being enforced in Virginia. In fact, I'd bet most state and local police are unaware of the federal GFSZA.

    Carry on. Stay safe.
    I want to keep our founding fathers' visions and rights for this country pure. I implore you to do the same.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •