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Thread: Auburn Sam's Club Police Encounter

  1. #1
    Regular Member decklin's Avatar
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    Auburn Sam's Club Police Encounter

    Today I oc'd to the Target at the south hill mall and through the mall itself with no issues.

    Then I went to Sam's Club in Auburn and as I was walking through the door two Auburn Police Officers came in through the other door. As we pass one officer says, "Sir, just letting you know that it's against mall policy to open carry."
    I replied with, "Well, good thing I'm not in the mall."
    Officer says, "I'm not saying it's illegal it's just against the policy here. I'm just supposed to let you know."
    I told him, "Sam's Club has it's own entrance and I've been coming here a couple years now and never had an issue."
    He replied with, "I'm working for the mall and I'm supposed to enforce their policy."

    I told him I'd like to speak with the manager to which he said, "Of course, he should be in here."
    I went in with him and his partner to speak with the Manager at the service desk. The manager was there and greeted the officer by name. I think it was Barnett or something like that.

    Officer, "Hi there just wanted to talk to you about this gentleman open carrying. It's against the mall policy to open carry firearms here."
    Manager, "Well we've never had an issue before."
    Me, "I've been coming here for a couple years now. I canceled my COSTCO membership because of their stance on firearms. I got a membership here because I was assured I wouldn't have any issues."
    Manager, "Well our policy varies from state to state."
    Me, "Your policy is to follow state law and this is an open carry state."
    Manager looking at Officer , "As long as the customers don't complain he should be fine."
    Officer, "Ok, I'll go with your discretion as it is your store."

    At this point the officer and I walk away from the counter and he starts talking to me.
    Officer, "Sorry about holding you up. I actually support open carry and wish more would do it. I myself carry everywhere even when I'm not working."
    I just nodded and said sure.
    Officer, "Did you know that the Batman shooter in Aurora had 6 different theaters to choose from and chose the one with a no firearms policy? In fact the last 37 mass shootings have all happened in gun free zones except one."
    At this point I was a little surprised as I'd never heard a cop say this kind of thing.
    We spoke for another minute and then he told me to have a great day, shook my hand and then left.

    At no time did he ever ask for ID or try to convince me I was in the wrong. In fact he was very polite.
    I would classify this as a positive encounter because it seemed that the only reason he stopped me was because of the mall policy. The same policy that is the very reason why I don't go to that mall.
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    If that cop was wearing a police uniform while doing private business, I would be up in the chief's butt so far he would be taking Preparation H for a month.

    In all PDs that I have examined, its against policy for them to wear uniforms while doing private security. And I complain loudly every time I see it.

    And I get all in the cop's face .... they have no jurisdiction on private property.
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 04-18-2014 at 07:22 PM.

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    Regular Member Dave in Edmonds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    If that cop was wearing a police uniform while doing private business, I would be up in the chief's butt so far he would be taking Preparation H for a month.

    In all PDs that I have examined, its against policy for them to wear uniforms while doing private security. And I complain loudly every time I see it.

    And I get all in the cop's face .... they have no jurisdiction on private property.
    Cops here do it ALL the time. It is 100% legal and happens daily. The cops you see at sporting events? All off-duty. Cops working traffic at construction sites? All off-duty. Sworn officers have powers of arrest 24/7 whether they're on the clock or not and they can wear their uniform at any time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave in Edmonds View Post
    Cops here do it ALL the time. It is 100% legal and happens daily. The cops you see at sporting events? All off-duty. Cops working traffic at construction sites? All off-duty. Sworn officers have powers of arrest 24/7 whether they're on the clock or not and they can wear their uniform at any time.
    No doubt that have arrest powers. Cops cannot be in uniform while performing off-duty jobs; not a law, but policy for every PD I have spoken to. Why? Because they have no power themselves to direct traffic unless the PD tells them to...they have no power as a private security guard to order you about (they can tell you to leave-that's about it w/o u committing a crime).

    Cops in uniform, not doing police business, is not OK in my book.

    Soldiers in fatigues roaming about town (not for a quick lunch etc) is not OK with me ... soldiers want to roam about like tourists then wear your dress uniforms. And expect a chewing out if your boots are not shined. And asking why are they there in fatigues, are we under attack? Most kids in the service have no idea that they are being told its OK just to indoctrinate the public. I'm their teacher.

    A uniform means something. It means you are on-duty, doing actions that are ordered by their superiors, and for the "benefit" of the governmental body who employs them.

    A citizen can be required to follow the lawful request of a policeman ... having them in uniform doing non-police business creates an atmosphere where people have no idea if the request is coming from a policeman or from a security guard.

    Call your PD and ask about this policy and next time you see one from the dept. in uniform that you think is doing security, ask him. Ask him why is he in uniform. Ask him for his supv. name and where he works. Then chew him out and call his boss and chew him out and call his boss up to the top.

    I don't go to $400 baseball games (or whatever the high cost of sporting events are ~ I'm not Bill Gates ~ I listen on the radio ~ not TV, god I hate TV for sports).

    In my state, the law is that cop's direct traffic around construction sites, and the business pays to town for the service (its retarded waste of $$$ ~ many times the towns never get paid too).
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 04-19-2014 at 12:40 AM.

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave in Edmonds View Post
    Cops here do it ALL the time. It is 100% legal and happens daily. The cops you see at sporting events? All off-duty. Cops working traffic at construction sites? All off-duty. Sworn officers have powers of arrest 24/7 whether they're on the clock or not and they can wear their uniform at any time.
    "Cops for Hire"

    "Pay to Play Policing"

    Tax funded equipment used for private security guard work.


    ^ bad ideas.

    Legal ≠ moral
    Last edited by Dave_pro2a; 04-19-2014 at 01:13 AM.

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    Regular Member Dave in Edmonds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    In my state....
    If you're not from Washington, why do think you know about what goes on here? I know several Seattle police officers personally and can tell you that they ALL do private security work in uniform regularly, as does my buddy who is a Pierce County Sheriff's deputy. Our State Patrol officers do it as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave in Edmonds View Post
    If you're not from Washington, why do think you know about what goes on here? I know several Seattle police officers personally and can tell you that they ALL do private security work in uniform regularly, as does my buddy who is a Pierce County Sheriff's deputy. Our State Patrol officers do it as well.
    And you have called the department to see if they are happy with this ?

    Then I would assume that all cops in uniform are just security guards ...

    Usually security services are a regulated business ... uniforms go through an approval process, bond requirements, etc. Chk out your state statues. You may find your answers.

    Don't assume that their actions conform to policies and the law.

    I know in my state, it would be a violation of our state laws for a cop to work for a security company and wear their police uniform in the performance of their job as private security.
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 04-19-2014 at 05:54 PM.

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    And you have called the department to see if they are happy with this ?
    IIRC the department gets a cut of the money earned by the officer.

    Like the Mafia.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    And you have called the department to see if they are happy with this ?

    Then I would assume that all cops in uniform are just security guards ...

    Usually security services are a regulated business ... uniforms go through an approval process, bond requirements, etc. Chk out your state statues. You may find your answers.

    Don't assume that their actions conform to policies and the law.

    I know in my state, it would be a violation of our state laws for a cop to work for a security company and wear their police uniform in the performance of their job as private security.
    You can still work a detail pulling "security" and not be from a "security company".

    We have several businesses that hire us for "security". They are in our jurisdiction. They call our department and request a guy. The department then calls us and asks us if we want the job. When we work it we are in full uniform with full powers. We are just basically paid to stay at that spot. We are still on duty just have to stay at the location. They pay the department a cut and we get he rest.

    Now I couldn't just here myself out or even work security anywhere in the same city. We have a clause/rule that says no conflict of interest second jobs.

    Now this obviously doesn't apply to any state but MA, but just giving and example that the "can't use uniform doing security" is false. It can be done in at least one state and probably many more.

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    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    You can still work a detail pulling "security" and not be from a "security company".

    We have several businesses that hire us for "security". They are in our jurisdiction. They call our department and request a guy. The department then calls us and asks us if we want the job. When we work it we are in full uniform with full powers. We are just basically paid to stay at that spot. We are still on duty just have to stay at the location. They pay the department a cut and we get he rest.
    Now I couldn't just here myself out or even work security anywhere in the same city. We have a clause/rule that says no conflict of interest second jobs.

    Now this obviously doesn't apply to any state but MA, but just giving and example that the "can't use uniform doing security" is false. It can be done in at least one state and probably many more.

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    It would be a non-event if the officers marketed and used their training and skills for these types of jobs WITHOUT wearing the uniform or claiming LEO authority (I'm under the impression that former military do this, and it seems fair, given that they are no longer employees of the U.S. government).
    I'd say the problem lies in WEARING the uniform while serving a private entity and NOT serving the citizens of the city. The uniform, badge, powers, etc. are representative of the authority that is entrusted to badged-citizens (LEOs) by the consent of the people, IN THE PERFORMANCE of those duties. A social contract, if you will.

    Once the officer is accepting pay from anyone other than the city for protection of a private business, the officer is effectively usurping the authority that came from the original contract between citizens and badged-citizens. The other word for that is "stealing".
    Last edited by Rusty Young Man; 04-19-2014 at 06:49 PM.
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke

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    I would think the libertarian in all of us would be happy about a private business providing for it's own law enforcement. Instead of complaining about thin police protection and asking for a raise in everyone's taxes to hire more cops, the businesses are paying for their own cops.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    I would think the libertarian in all of us would be happy about a private business providing for it's own law enforcement. Instead of complaining about thin police protection and asking for a raise in everyone's taxes to hire more cops, the businesses are paying for their own cops.
    Thats basically how it works. Its up to the private business to decide if they want extra police on "patrol" if you will, at their location.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Young Man View Post
    It would be a non-event if the officers marketed and used their training and skills for these types of jobs WITHOUT wearing the uniform or claiming LEO authority (I'm under the impression that former military do this, and it seems fair, given that they are no longer employees of the U.S. government).
    I'd say the problem lies in WEARING the uniform while serving a private entity and NOT serving the citizens of the city. The uniform, badge, powers, etc. are representative of the authority that is entrusted to badged-citizens (LEOs) by the consent of the people, IN THE PERFORMANCE of those duties. A social contract, if you will.

    Once the officer is accepting pay from anyone other than the city for protection of a private business, the officer is effectively usurping the authority that came from the original contract between citizens and badged-citizens. The other word for that is "stealing".
    The social contract is still in effect. If I'm at the bowling alley and a fight breaks out outside or inside I'm still there. Instead of them calling 911 then me getting dispatched.. low and behold already there.

    Med call? Same thing. Why call 911 for your grandmother who collapses at the local festival to have a unit get dispatched. There's already one there.

    For a club or party with alcohol. Why wait for the shots to be fired? Have a unit on scene the whole 4/6/8 hrs. Have a traffic problem? Why wait till someone crashes? Have a giy on day there to PREVENT the accident.

    Your thinking that the place hires the guy like a personal bouncer with a funny uniform. In my state when your there your still working for the community just at that location.

    Think same job but at a specific location.

    You may say "oh they hire them to stop shop lifters or trespassers like personal security". Well yea.... again if there was a trespasser at a business who would they call? The PD to remove them. Same with a shoplifter. So instead of calling and waiting they pay the rate and have the officer stay the whole night. Doesn't affect minimum man power on the road to protect everyone else but provides extra attention to a private business that willingly pays for that officer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    You can still work a detail pulling "security" and not be from a "security company".
    That's true ... but in those cases the people pay the PD for your services .. to the town, not to you.

    I think that this is a "security detail" as you describe....not being part of a security service.

    if cops are on duty 24/7, then how can they have a 2nd job?
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 04-19-2014 at 08:25 PM.

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    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    The social contract is still in effect. If I'm at the bowling alley and a fight breaks out outside or inside I'm still there. Instead of them calling 911 then me getting dispatched.. low and behold already there.

    Med call? Same thing. Why call 911 for your grandmother who collapses at the local festival to have a unit get dispatched. There's already one there.

    For a club or party with alcohol. Why wait for the shots to be fired? Have a unit on scene the whole 4/6/8 hrs. Have a traffic problem? Why wait till someone crashes? Have a giy on day there to PREVENT the accident.
    I have no problem with someone being there when you need an armed individual; it's one of the arguments for armed citizens, after all.
    And obviously, I much like the idea of a business or establishment paying for its OWN protection instead of billing it to the taxpayers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Your thinking that the place hires the guy like a personal bouncer with a funny uniform. In my state when your there your still working for the community just at that location.

    Think same job but at a specific location.

    You may say "oh they hire them to stop shop lifters or trespassers like personal security". Well yea.... again if there was a trespasser at a business who would they call? The PD to remove them. Same with a shoplifter. So instead of calling and waiting they pay the rate and have the officer stay the whole night. Doesn't affect minimum man power on the road to protect everyone else but provides extra attention to a private business that willingly pays for that officer.

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    Thank you for distilling what I meant out of my post. I just find it difficult to believe that being hired by a private business wouldn't create some conflict of interest or bias the officer in question's decision-making.

    I guess I kind of subscribe to the "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one" (Matthew 6:24) idea.
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Young Man View Post

    Thank you for distilling what I meant out of my post. I just find it difficult to believe that being hired by a private business wouldn't create some conflict of interest or bias the officer in question's decision-making.

    I guess I kind of subscribe to the "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one" (Matthew 6:24) idea.
    It does create issues ... I have run into cops being security guards. Security services can perform investigations (CGS Sec. 29-161u) in the course of their responsibilities but this is about the limit of their ability to try to hold or detain someone (w/o doing it under a citizen's arrest method that creates a possible civil issue).

    When they say that they are a cop ... I tell them to either place me under arrest (and it would be a citizen's arrest) or leave me alone ~ they may huff and puff, but they wisely leave me alone. Their immunity would not be a bar to a civil suit against them personally because it does not exist. It only exists when they are in the performance of their duties for the government.

    http://www.cga.ct.gov/current/pub/chap_534.htm A whole host of law and regulations regarding security services and PIs in my state. Security services is a highly regulated business.

    A cop wearing his uniform in my state, working for a security service, violates:
    Sec. 29-161s. Uniformed employee's insignia. The licensee of a security service shall issue to each uniformed employee a metal or woven insignia of a design approved by the Commissioner of Emergency Services and Public Protection, with an inscription thereon containing the word "security", the name of the licensee and an identification number. Such insignia shall be conspicuously worn at all times by the employee when in uniform and acting in the service of the licensee, and the commissioner may prescribe the manner of displaying such insignia. As used in this section, "uniform" means any manner or type of dress of a particular style and distinctive appearance as distinguished from clothing usually worn by the public.
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 04-19-2014 at 08:53 PM.

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    There is a distinct difference between a LEO in the lawful performance of his/her duties and one that is acting as a representative of a property owner. LEO enforcing property owners policies fall under the latter.

    Just ask David McCOLLEY and The Six Unknown Officers of the Alamogordo Department of Public Safety.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Young Man View Post
    I have no problem with someone being there when you need an armed individual; it's one of the arguments for armed citizens, after all.
    And obviously, I much like the idea of a business or establishment paying for its OWN protection instead of billing it to the taxpayers.



    Thank you for distilling what I meant out of my post. I just find it difficult to believe that being hired by a private business wouldn't create some conflict of interest or bias the officer in question's decision-making.

    I guess I kind of subscribe to the "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one" (Matthew 6:24) idea.
    I can see why you would think that and in some states that may happen, but in MA its not like that (that I've ever seen, heard, or done).

    Like I said your a regular full blown cop with arrest powers, report taking powers blah blah just respond if emergency etc. etc.

    Been several times on a detail and there a domestic in front of you... guess who responds until a regular guy with a cruiser shows up?

    On detail someone trespasses, disorderly, shoplifts, guess who detains/arrest them..guy on detail.

    Stop and shop is a big one for that. They hire us specifically to deter/respond to shop lifting. If we catch one we detain them because they broke a law (shop lifting). Either that officer arrests them or brings them in on paper.

    Not sure where the conflict of interest is or could be. You have a radio and you reaposnd to calls there and if serious then even outside your detail area. If there's any conflict its that the private business owner is paying you to still work for the city. If there is a domestic then your responding to assist that citizen on their dime.

    Again, different states and even cities/towns may be different but its how we do it and surrounding towns/cities I know of.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    That's true ... but in those cases the people pay the PD for your services .. to the town, not to you.

    I think that this is a "security detail" as you describe....not being part of a security service.

    if cops are on duty 24/7, then how can they have a 2nd job?
    Correct. I CANT work and get paid directly. All of my details go through my department. And if I wanted to work as a private security guard I couldn't. We have a conflict of interest clause/rule.

    As far as being on duty 24/7 we can still work another job and be on duty. For example, if I work at joes gas station in my city (jurisdiction) and a serious incident occurs and I DONT help/assist/ respond, I CAN be held responsible and punished administratively.

    Now if I'm in different jurisdiction doesn't count. And common sense prevails here. If its just taking a report for damage to auto then no not requires to assist. But if someone gets shot or a serious fight with weapons etc etc. You bet I'd have to respond within reason, like happy aid. Couldn't just let a guy bleed out and be like "sorry not on duty changing tires".

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    Regular Member Dave in Edmonds's Avatar
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    Here is a news item from just yesterday involving an off-duty officer in uniform working traffic at a construction site.

    http://q13fox.com/2014/04/18/off-dut...#axzz2zOCmWcpI

    Again, if you don't live here, why are you arguing about this? For that matter, why are you posting in the Washington forum at all?

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave in Edmonds View Post
    Here is a news item from just yesterday involving an off-duty officer in uniform working traffic at a construction site.

    http://q13fox.com/2014/04/18/off-dut...#axzz2zOCmWcpI

    Again, if you don't live here, why are you arguing about this? For that matter, why are you posting in the Washington forum at all?
    Which brings up an interesting point about the common lie "police work is more dangerous than other professions."

    This "officer's" injury should not count toward LEO injury statistics since he was working for a private company.

    Nor should he be entitled to any 'on the job injury' insurance, sick leave or benefits. If he died, he spouse and children should not be entitled to the standard Cadillac survivor benefits.

    You either for for tax payers, or for private companies. Don't double dip like a welfare cheat.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_pro2a View Post
    Which brings up an interesting point about the common lie "police work is more dangerous than other professions."

    This "officer's" injury should not count toward LEO injury statistics since he was working for a private company.

    Nor should he be entitled to any 'on the job injury' insurance, sick leave or benefits. If he died, he spouse and children should not be entitled to the standard Cadillac survivor benefits.

    You either for for tax payers, or for private companies. Don't double dip like a welfare cheat.
    Well its already been explained how some states your still working for the taxpayers just at a different location..... but ok boss w/e you say.

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    The venue contracts them out from the police department, I used to work security at a mall we had them all the time during the holiday season. It's like Overtime for them "off duty" basically not on patrol.

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    Color of authority is the problem.

    "Social Contract"......yuck that's boloney.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member Geerolla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    It does create issues ... I have run into cops being security guards. Security services can perform investigations (CGS Sec. 29-161u) in the course of their responsibilities but this is about the limit of their ability to try to hold or detain someone (w/o doing it under a citizen's arrest method that creates a possible civil issue).

    When they say that they are a cop ... I tell them to either place me under arrest (and it would be a citizen's arrest) or leave me alone ~ they may huff and puff, but they wisely leave me alone. Their immunity would not be a bar to a civil suit against them personally because it does not exist. It only exists when they are in the performance of their duties for the government.

    http://www.cga.ct.gov/current/pub/chap_534.htm A whole host of law and regulations regarding security services and PIs in my state. Security services is a highly regulated business.

    A cop wearing his uniform in my state, working for a security service, violates:
    Sec. 29-161s. Uniformed employee's insignia. The licensee of a security service shall issue to each uniformed employee a metal or woven insignia of a design approved by the Commissioner of Emergency Services and Public Protection, with an inscription thereon containing the word "security", the name of the licensee and an identification number. Such insignia shall be conspicuously worn at all times by the employee when in uniform and acting in the service of the licensee, and the commissioner may prescribe the manner of displaying such insignia. As used in this section, "uniform" means any manner or type of dress of a particular style and distinctive appearance as distinguished from clothing usually worn by the public.
    We don't care what the law is in Connecticut or that you run around being the uniform police chewing out cops for this. Check your sub-forum next time and unless someone asks "what's it like in CT?" just keep it to yourself.


    Sent from my UAV using Disposition Matrix 2.0

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