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Thread: Showing papers (receipts) at stores as a requirement for exiting

  1. #1
    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Showing papers (receipts) at stores as a requirement for exiting

    *Sorry if this has already been debated, but my searches only turned up few older threads.*

    Long story short, I don't like being accused or having it implied that I am a thief, much less being treated like a thief. This is especially true in public.

    Which brings me to the heart of the matter: Sam's Club seems (SEEMS, since I couldn't find the receipt requirement, nor any of two employees) to require that you show your receipt to the guy at the door before you can leave with your newly-purchased belongings. Also, some make a REALLY big scene if you refuse (ask me how I know that).
    Walmart also has this "you must show your papers!" mentality in some locations, but I've only encountered it a handful of times in my conscious life.

    I tried searching the forum for opinions, but I mostly go OC-related encounters (go figure), but not too many receipt-related encounters.

    One member echoed what I now believe may be the case (post #9), which is that only MEMBERSHIP stores can require you to "show papers":
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...and-no-receipt

    This older thread from 2008 is the earliest example of the "papers please" mentality at Wal Mart (post #3) that I could find on OCDO:
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...lmart+receipts

    And another thread with a "you must show your papers!" event at Wal Mart (post #19):
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...lmart+receipts

    How would you proceed in the case of MEMBERSHIP stores? Do their claims of "you have to show the receipt since you signed the contract" have merit?
    What about non-membership stores such as Walmart? Are their Gestapo tactics "lawful"?
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    From Sam's Clubs membership terms ..

    Receipts: To ensure that you are charged correctly for the merchandise you have selected, you will be requested to show your receipt when exiting.

    Sam’s Club reserves the right to inspect any container, backpack, briefcase and so forth upon entering or leaving the Club and to refuse entry to anyone at our discretion.


    Seems as if they cannot force you to show a receipt .. says REQUESTED ... indicating optional

    Seems like they can demand to inspect .. but failure to do so can only result in them refusing entry only.

    So, no, they cannot force either when you are exiting.

    Do shrills make you comply with their request? Seems like a good place to train!

    "Hey hey hey, show me your receipt !!"

    I've had stores do this...I just brush their requests aside and continue my travels. Threats don't affect me as long as they are not illegal threats.

    I recall in boot camp we did guard duty ... the Sgt told us not to allow entry into the bldg w/o the person showing ID. Well, the SGT came to the door one night and asked to be let in ... the guy on guard duty refused w/o a showing of ID ... SGT screamed and yelled and guy let him in w/o showing ID ... then he got the **** kicked out of him by the SGT for letting him in w/o ID. Funniest chit. Boot camp was the funnest of all. A million hilarious stories. This is just one. The movie Full Metal Jacket reminded me of boot camp....the only movie that every really caught the experience even close to reality. Nowadays, the instructors can't hit ya ... so I'm told....

    So yelling, threatening, screaming, whining, crying, pleading, etc. have no effect on my behavior. You can do all to me and I'll just sit there with a chit eaten grin holding back the laughter. Ahh..good times.

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    Sometimes my local Walmart gets in the habit of doing that, but I just say "No " and keep right on walking.
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    No, you do not have to show your receipt, at least not in California.

    I used to do it intentionally at Best Buy. Made some good videos but I never posted them.

    Sams Club is a different issue because they are a "so called private membership" club. However, I cant imagine they can FORCE you to show receipt or inspect personal belongings.

    I used to have fun creating confrontations with Best Buy but I don't do it anymore.

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    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onus View Post
    No, you do not have to show your receipt, at least not in California.

    I used to do it intentionally at Best Buy. Made some good videos but I never posted them.

    Sams Club is a different issue because they are a "so called private membership" club. However, I cant imagine they can FORCE you to show receipt or inspect personal belongings.

    I used to have fun creating confrontations with Best Buy but I don't do it anymore.
    That's the thing: they didn't force me to show my receipt or inspect my recent purchases, but they didn't allow me to leave until a supervisor and later the manager came out. Also, only the supervisor and manager maintained any semblance of courtesy (in contrast to the doorman and a lady employee he called over).

    At least the manager tried to make a case for checking beyond the "he [referring to the doorman] needs to do his job" or "just let him check the receipt and you can be on your way" (that isn't familiar) arguments.
    The manager said the receipt checking was to make sure people weren't being overcharged () and also to make sure they weren't stealing (that sounds more like the truth) because people would sometimes fabricate "fake receipts". He also stated that Walmart does bagging, so that served as a "check" of sorts, but Sam's Club doesn't bag, and customers' receipts need to be checked as a consequence.

    So my question is: since it is technically a "membership" store and private property, should I just accept the receipt thing? I also don't want passerby to get a bad image of OCers, since I imagine the people that saw me standing off to the side with my cart and my holstered 1911 must have somehow gotten the idea that I was there because of my sidearm.
    Sammy's is the only wholesale store I know in the area that doesn't try to disarm me with those magical stickers.

    As to Walmart, I imagine it is like your experience with Best Buy, and since no membership is required to enter, no "contract" exists.

    Good job on the videos, by the way.
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

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    When I worked at a membership store, the employees were told to check the receipts to make sure the number of items on the receipt match the number in the cart. LP worried about theft; receipt door checking was the bosses way of making sure the cashiers weren't getting sloppy when they got busy; and if they did, the register number is printed at the bottom.

    Weirdly, I mind less at a place like Sams than I do Walmart. Not sure why.

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    Sam's Club and Costco are membership stores and as such, you are required to abide by the conditions you agreed upon when you requested and were granted membership. Concerning receipt checks, both companies have a clause in their fine print which states that members must submit to a receipt/basket check. Can they FORCE you to submit? Not without getting sued and possibly facing criminal charges, I'm sure. Can they revoke your membership and ban you from the store with the threat of criminal trespassing if you return? Absolutely. I'm a member of Sam's Club and since I consented to the terms of their membership, I don't have a problem with the receipt check. My mindset is that if I don't like it then I can take my business elsewhere.

    Concerning Walmart or any other store to which you're not bound by any sort of membership agreement, they don't have any authority to demand you show them a receipt unless they suspect you of shoplifting. If I'm ever asked to show a receipt while existing a store, my compliance with the REQUEST will hinge almost entirely upon the attitude of the individual making the request. If I'm asked politely, I don't mind showing a receipt; if they're rude, I'll be confrontational by asking them if they are accusing me of shoplifting. That question alone has always been enough to make them back down because lawsuits are never a good thing for a retailer.

    Personally, I have a hard time comparing Walmart with Big Brother. The 80-year-old man asking to see my receipt on the way out the door doesn't make me feel violated, but the cop who pulls me over for going 50 in a 40 and wants to search my car because he believes that I shouldn't have anything to worry about unless I have something to hide, that does make me feel violated. To each their own, I suppose.
    Last edited by The Trickster; 04-19-2014 at 06:23 AM.

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    For some reason, I guess I've never minded at Sam's. I suppose it's because there isn't an air of accusation with the checking - they simply check everyone, and it isn't a very thorough check (as someone else mentioned, mostly just making sure the # of items matches). That being said, now that I think about it, that they do it to everyone certainly isn't reason that it's ok (compare to DUI or ID roadblocks). THAT being said, being a private store that I don't have to use, I'm ok with that minor check as I'm leaving - I agree to it (explicitly, not comparable to "I got a driver license, so somehow I magically agreed to DUI and ID roadblocks") before using the store.

    At other stores where it isn't standard policy to check receipt for everyone leaving, I guess to be honest it'd be a case-by-case basis. If I set of an alarm, for instance, I'll work with whatever employee to find the offending item and get the anti-shoplifting device disabled or removed.

    If I don't feel as thought hey have a good reason to stop me, I'd probably treat them the same as I do an overreaching cop. Am I being detained? I don't consent to any searches or seizures.
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    Several years ago at Costco I actually had it help me. I had left an item behind at the register.

    Never had it done anywhere else.
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    I do not comply. If asked, I say " No thank you" and continue. If pressed I will hand them the receipt and offer a choice...............Allow me to pass or give me a full refund. Pi$$ me off....Pay the consequences.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Trickster View Post
    Sam's Club and Costco are membership stores and as such, you are required to abide by the conditions you agreed upon when you requested and were granted membership.
    .
    See post #2 for Sam's Club .... seems not to be mandatory when leaving IMO. Another instance where words matter. Its a request, not a mandatory thing one must do.

    I had a civil case a few months ago where an agency issued out an order and request to file papers by a certain date. When I filed well after the date, actually at the time of the hearing, the commissioners hearing the case said that they would not accept the papers. I argued that the order said that they "requested" that papers be filed by a certain date and the wording made the deadline a directory one and not a mandatory one. They took the papers. I actually recieved the order/request after the deadline that they proposed...I did not argue this point but would have if my initial argument would have been lost.

    Costco? Who knows.
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 04-20-2014 at 02:25 PM.

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    The reason 'big box' stores require you to show a reciept is first and foremost to ensure you actually did purchase stuff. Without shopping bags it would be near impossible to determine that the people walking out with $1000 in groceries actually did pay for them.

    They cannot force you to show, but if you don't then they can revoke your membership... or if you didn't have one ( and therefore didn't pay) they can blacklist you and get you for shoplifting if you ever come back.

    Source: I work for Sams.

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    Last edited by Baked on Grease; 04-20-2014 at 06:44 PM.
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    My local Walmart does not check "papers." If you don't like having your "papers" checked at Sam's, don't go to Sam's.
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    I would say that such a debate is easily shut down with the following: they are a private entity, with no ability to compel you to be in their store. If you don't like their policy, shop elsewhere.

    Considering how big Wal-Mart is, their amounts lost to theft per year, even with these policies in place, are likely far more than any of us will make in the coming decade or five.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Young Man View Post
    That's the thing: they didn't force me to show my receipt or inspect my recent purchases, but they didn't allow me to leave until a supervisor and later the manager came out. Also, only the supervisor and manager maintained any semblance of courtesy (in contrast to the doorman and a lady employee he called over).

    At least the manager tried to make a case for checking beyond the "he [referring to the doorman] needs to do his job" or "just let him check the receipt and you can be on your way" (that isn't familiar) arguments.
    The manager said the receipt checking was to make sure people weren't being overcharged () and also to make sure they weren't stealing (that sounds more like the truth) because people would sometimes fabricate "fake receipts". He also stated that Walmart does bagging, so that served as a "check" of sorts, but Sam's Club doesn't bag, and customers' receipts need to be checked as a consequence.

    So my question is: since it is technically a "membership" store and private property, should I just accept the receipt thing? I also don't want passerby to get a bad image of OCers, since I imagine the people that saw me standing off to the side with my cart and my holstered 1911 must have somehow gotten the idea that I was there because of my sidearm.
    Sammy's is the only wholesale store I know in the area that doesn't try to disarm me with those magical stickers.

    As to Walmart, I imagine it is like your experience with Best Buy, and since no membership is required to enter, no "contract" exists.

    Good job on the videos, by the way.
    How exactly? Did they shake their finger at you?
    Not sure why anyone would permit anyone else (non-LEO in the lawful performance of his duties) to detain them for any reason.

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    what's the problem?????????

    why wouldn't you want to show a receipt to prove that you were honest, when shoplifting is such a huge problem at all stores? I have been told by many of the folks I know that one of the biggest ways people rip off Walmart it to got in with empty bags in their purse, grab whatever they want and stuff it in the bags, and then walk out the exit of the automotive department, which is generally not manned by security personnel. I don't understand why you wouldn't want to show a receipt to aid in catching people who are really ripping the places off? Nobody assumes anybody is honest anymore when you hear about all the ways the scammers and public benefit thieves work in our society. For many, getting benefits or goods by violating the law is nothing more than a game they play because they think everybody else is stupid for not doing the same thing, and there is no social stigma attached with being arrested for things like shoplifting and drug sale anymore. The "takers' in our society just laugh at the rest of us for being so stupid as to go to work everyday and try to pay your bills. Personally, I gladly show a receipt whenever asked so that everybody can see I'm legit and also so that I can help the stores catch the scumbags who are stealing from all of us, because those theft costs just get passed on to the rest of us who legally pay for everything.

    The larger thing that PO's me is when I stand in line at Walmart and the woman ahead of me with three kids whips out the EBT card to pay for a shopping cart full of stuff that I can't afford to buy.
    Last edited by RK3369; 04-21-2014 at 10:37 AM.

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    Maybe because I shouldn't have to prove I'm not a criminal before they treat me like one?

    Maybe because I don't like the idea, however small the capacity, of people investigating me without reasonable belief or evidence that I specifically did something wrong?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RK3369 View Post
    why wouldn't you want to show a receipt to prove that you were honest, when shoplifting is such a huge problem at all stores? I have been told by many of the folks I know that one of the biggest ways people rip off Walmart it to got in with empty bags in their purse, grab whatever they want and stuff it in the bags, and then walk out the exit of the automotive department, which is generally not manned by security personnel. I don't understand why you wouldn't want to show a receipt to aid in catching people who are really ripping the places off? Nobody assumes anybody is honest anymore when you hear about all the ways the scammers and public benefit thieves work in our society. For many, getting benefits or goods by violating the law is nothing more than a game they play because they think everybody else is stupid for not doing the same thing, and there is no social stigma attached with being arrested for things like shoplifting and drug sale anymore. The "takers' in our society just laugh at the rest of us for being so stupid as to go to work everyday and try to pay your bills. Personally, I gladly show a receipt whenever asked so that everybody can see I'm legit and also so that I can help the stores catch the scumbags who are stealing from all of us, because those theft costs just get passed on to the rest of us who legally pay for everything.

    The larger thing that PO's me is when I stand in line at Walmart and the woman ahead of me with three kids whips out the EBT card to pay for a shopping cart full of stuff that I can't afford to buy.
    My money spends just as well as yours at a Walmart. I do not have to prove that I am honest, I only have to pay, at the register. Video will show that I paid.....at the register.

    Also, how does you proving your honesty prevent shoplifting at your local Walmart?
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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RK3369 View Post
    why wouldn't you want to show a receipt to prove that you were honest, when shoplifting is such a huge problem at all stores? I have been told by many of the folks I know that one of the biggest ways people rip off Walmart it to got in with empty bags in their purse, grab whatever they want and stuff it in the bags, and then walk out the exit of the automotive department, which is generally not manned by security personnel. I don't understand why you wouldn't want to show a receipt to aid in catching people who are really ripping the places off? Nobody assumes anybody is honest anymore when you hear about all the ways the scammers and public benefit thieves work in our society. For many, getting benefits or goods by violating the law is nothing more than a game they play because they think everybody else is stupid for not doing the same thing, and there is no social stigma attached with being arrested for things like shoplifting and drug sale anymore. The "takers' in our society just laugh at the rest of us for being so stupid as to go to work everyday and try to pay your bills. Personally, I gladly show a receipt whenever asked so that everybody can see I'm legit and also so that I can help the stores catch the scumbags who are stealing from all of us, because those theft costs just get passed on to the rest of us who legally pay for everything.

    The larger thing that PO's me is when I stand in line at Walmart and the woman ahead of me with three kids whips out the EBT card to pay for a shopping cart full of stuff that I can't afford to buy.
    Why wouldn't you want to show your ID at an "immigration checkpoint"? Why wouldn't you want to take a quick breath test at a "DUI checkpoint"? Why wouldn't you want to just show your ID when stopped by a LEO on the sidewalk for open carry? Why wouldn't you..... Because for any intervention to your activity or travel or general free-ness there should be probable cause or reasonable suspicion that you've committed a (real) crime.

    That you're on private property is irrelevant unless submittal to detention was a condition of entry that you expressly contractually obligated yourself to. This is why the membership contract(s) referenced earlier are so relevant. It would appear that you're under no obligation, as a member, to forfeit your rights.

    That we're dealing with store owners/managers/property controllers instead of a LEA becomes less and less relevant as your perspective shifts from what's legal to what's right.

    When permitted to enter private property, it should be assumed that all of your rights are preserved/not forfeited unless it is explicitly and contractually agreed upon otherwise before entry.
    Last edited by stealthyeliminator; 04-21-2014 at 01:53 PM.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Keep in mind that even in membership stores the LP has no force of law unless a crime has been committed. Failing to follow policy is not a crime, the most legally they could do is revoke your membership and trespass you. They have no authority to detain you.

    Though not a membership store, Walmart, I went through this recently when the manager went on vacation and the LP employee got a wild hair and decided to have a greeter stop customers. The greeter put her hands on my cart stopping us from leaving, detention. It ended in a heated but not loud or angry discussion. Though the LP did convey a threat that he would detain me or anyone else that walks past a greeter without showing the receipt. When the manager returned I received a big apology and assurance it would never happen again. For some reason manager cannot fire LP, only corporate can. She explained he has been a problem and she was filing a incident report to try to rectify any future problems.
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    Why should we not want to be free of meddling and interference in our lives? We are free people, citizens not subjects in our public and private lives.

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    Sam’s Club reserves the right to inspect any container, backpack, briefcase and so forth upon entering or leaving the Club and to refuse entry to anyone at our discretion.

    Does this include your pockets? Your children's pockets? Your underwear? Your rectum?

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Sam’s Club reserves the right to inspect any container, backpack, briefcase and so forth upon entering or leaving the Club and to refuse entry to anyone at our discretion.

    Does this include your pockets? Your children's pockets? Your underwear? Your rectum?
    I would like to know how exactly they believe they have a "right" to do any of those things - simply because they say they do? I'll let them check my receipt because I agreed to that upon signing the contract, but if they demand to inspect my wife's purse or my pockets, it's not happening. Fortunately, in the many years I have shopped at Sam's Club I have never seen anything like this occur. In fact, most of the folks checking receipts don't even read it; rather, they just mark it with their Sharpie and wish you well, all while daydreaming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Trickster View Post
    I would like to know how exactly they believe they have a "right" to do any of those things - simply because they say they do? I'll let them check my receipt because I agreed to that upon signing the contract, but if they demand to inspect my wife's purse or my pockets, it's not happening. Fortunately, in the many years I have shopped at Sam's Club I have never seen anything like this occur. In fact, most of the folks checking receipts don't even read it; rather, they just mark it with their Sharpie and wish you well, all while daydreaming.
    Unfortunately, yes they can claim that they have your permission because one gives it to them to be a member.

    Employers search employees (some do) as a condition of employment .. courts have not said no.

    My point is that the only recourse is for them not to allow one entry into the store ... but I don't think that this would apply when going out.

    I think that one can refuse when leaving w/o any negative repercussions. Sam's Club wrote the contract, they are more strongly bound by its conditions that you and it is to be interpreted to the favor of the customer.

    The refusal of a search is reasonably read to mean that if one refuses when trying to enter to a search then they can turn you away...that's it. They cannot cancel the membership. It re-sets every time. And refusal upon exiting has no consequences at all.

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    You don't have to stop, without reasonable suspicion or probable cause of you actually stealing they can not legally detain you for not showing a receipt.

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