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Thread: Terry stops in IA

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    Regular Member hhofent's Avatar
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    Terry stops in IA

    What is the legality of terry stops in iowa for OC? And how about if stopped for speeding or some other minor traffic infraction?

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    terry stops are legal .. are you suggesting stopping people for no reason?

    Although I think that courts, initially saying a terry stop was for criminal activity, switched gears and made it apply to traffic stops that are now mostly civil offenses.

    Give an inch, take a yard I think.

    http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...0&page=07-1122

    For a simple, short, concise court opinion.
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 04-21-2014 at 02:31 AM.

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    Regular Member hhofent's Avatar
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    So a terry stop can be used to search your vehicle in a traffic stop, but open carrying alone doesn't justify a terry stop.
    Is that right?

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hhofent View Post
    So a terry stop can be used to search your vehicle in a traffic stop, but open carrying alone doesn't justify a terry stop.
    Is that right?

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    Terry stop is just a form of "encounter".

    Motor vehicle stuff is different as noted by someone else. Yes they still need RAS to stop your vehicle (brake like out). But as far as pat frisking the vehicles, exit orders, searching the vehicle, what parts they search, etc. Are a whole separate can of worms. Falls under the "motor vehicle exception" since its been deemed that vehicles are subject to warrants like houses are since they are "mobile in nature" or something to that effect.

    This isn't blanket stuff and some minute things vary from state to state depending on their state supreme court and case law.



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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Terry stop is just a form of "encounter".

    Motor vehicle stuff is different as noted by someone else. Yes they still need RAS to stop your vehicle (brake like out). But as far as pat frisking the vehicles, exit orders, searching the vehicle, what parts they search, etc. Are a whole separate can of worms. Falls under the "motor vehicle exception" since its been deemed that vehicles are subject to warrants like houses are since they are "mobile in nature" or something to that effect.

    This isn't blanket stuff and some minute things vary from state to state depending on their state supreme court and case law.

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    A Terry Stop is not "just another form of encounter", it is a "stop and frisk."
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    A Terry Stop is not "just another form of encounter", it is a "stop and frisk."
    Correct. Hence "form" or if you like "level". Its a more intrusive/invasive form of encounter. Your still talking to the person or "encountering them". Its just a level up in invasiveness and correspondingly needs more reason to do so.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Moved to Iowa sub-forum as the issue is state specific.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Regular Member hhofent's Avatar
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    I guess what I'm looking for is this:

    If I were walking down the street, minding my own business, is OC alone RAS to perform a terry stop?

    And the same if I was pulled over in a car, for a reason; speeding, busted taillight, then how does a terry stop come into play?

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hhofent View Post
    I guess what I'm looking for is this:

    If I were walking down the street, minding my own business, is OC alone RAS to perform a terry stop?

    And the same if I was pulled over in a car, for a reason; speeding, busted taillight, then how does a terry stop come into play?

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    The traffic stop is more likely a department policy/cop personal preference thing. In Missouri a cop can arrest, without a warrant, for a busted tail light.

    OCing? Well, if you think the only thing the cop is "Terry Stopping" you for is your OC'd firearm then I would be sure that I'm recording and not speaking one word. That cop will have to articulate his RAS in front of a judge.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hhofent View Post
    I guess what I'm looking for is this:

    If I were walking down the street, minding my own business, is OC alone RAS to perform a terry stop?

    And the same if I was pulled over in a car, for a reason; speeding, busted taillight, then how does a terry stop come into play?

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    I can't tell you how exactly it would occur in IA because I'm not familiar with their laws on OC or if that constitutes enough to engage you in a terry stop. Some states I think do allow that (been discussed on here recently) and other states it does not.

    But again.... a Terry stop is different then a car stop. If your stopped and patted down on the sidewalk then its based in part on the terry case. If your stopped for a tail light out and there is "furitive movements" then you may be requested to exit the vehicle and patted down along with the immediate area that you were sitting. That's pat frisking the car. But this isn't from Terry because that was guys on foot casing a joint to rob.

    Now to OC aspect, which obviously your looking for, I honestly don't know case law from IA that says they can order you out of the vehicle because your armed. I would start with the state statutes and check to see if its a must notify state and go from there.

    But again.... different ball games. Motor vehicle stuff can get pretty complicated really quick. Terry stops are pretty straight forward. Either you have to stop them or you don't. You usually know that BEFORE you stop them. With a car stop you have no idea what you have other then a tail light out. So your actions determine where and how far a car stop goes. From movements to words etc. Etc.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Correct. Hence "form" or if you like "level". Its a more intrusive/invasive form of encounter. Your still talking to the person or "encountering them". Its just a level up in invasiveness and correspondingly needs more reason to do so.

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    If I were to experience a Terry Stop, the only thing the cop(s) will get from me is silent compliance. It is hoped that my recording device will remain operable.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hhofent View Post
    I guess what I'm looking for is this:

    If I were walking down the street, minding my own business, is OC alone RAS to perform a terry stop?

    --snipped--
    Probably not. This is why we do not consent to respond to LEO questions, searchs or seizures. Always have a digital recorder running when out and about.

    http://www.llrmi.com/articles/legal_...s_aquino.shtml

    http://www.fedagent.com/columns/case...ard-of-seizure
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member hhofent's Avatar
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    I know Iowa is not a "duty to inform" state.
    The reason I'm asking is that in my ccw class, the instructor said he always tells the LEO right away that he is carrying during a traffic stop, but he mentioned an associate of his, a lawyer, will never tell a LEO, and if asked, he will ask the LEO if it pertains to this stop, kind of avoiding the question. He said the reason is if the LEO knows you have a ccw/are carrying, he can invoke the terry clause and can cuff you/"secure" your guns.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hhofent View Post
    I know Iowa is not a "duty to inform" state.
    The reason I'm asking is that in my ccw class, the instructor said he always tells the LEO right away that he is carrying during a traffic stop, but he mentioned an associate of his, a lawyer, will never tell a LEO, and if asked, he will ask the LEO if it pertains to this stop, kind of avoiding the question. He said the reason is if the LEO knows you have a ccw/are carrying, he can invoke the terry clause and can cuff you/"secure" your guns.

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    Sounds like he's conflating exit orders with terry stops. Again, not versed with IA law but I doubt (that's opinion you have to check IA case law) that having a firearm and ccw is enough for an automatic exit order and especially cuffing. That's a bit of a stretch.

    That kind of easy to answer from your instructor. He said he always notifies. So how many times has he been given exit orders and cuffed after he notified?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hhofent View Post
    I know Iowa is not a "duty to inform" state.
    The reason I'm asking is that in my ccw class, the instructor said he always tells the LEO right away that he is carrying during a traffic stop, but he mentioned an associate of his, a lawyer, will never tell a LEO, and if asked, he will ask the LEO if it pertains to this stop, kind of avoiding the question. He said the reason is if the LEO knows you have a ccw/are carrying, he can invoke the terry clause and can cuff you/"secure" your guns.

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    That is the ol' officer safety issue. Don't think you'll get cuffed, but you might get temporarily disarmed.

    Candidly, I have gone both ways depending on the circumstances/reason I was stopped.

    Burned out break light or minor speeding - likely to inform w/o use of the word "gun." No ticket either.

    Sobriety check point - No sir, I don't drink. Am I free to go?
    I detest these fishing stops late at night when I am tired and on my way home from a meeting.

    Did have fun at one such though. I had a half dozen guns in the truck + my med bag
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hhofent View Post
    I guess what I'm looking for is this:
    If I were walking down the street, minding my own business, is OC alone RAS to perform a terry stop?
    In an incorporated area (town/city): yes
    Outside of an incorporated area: no
    OC of a handgun outside of an incorporated area does not require a permit in Iowa.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amaixner View Post
    In an incorporated area (town/city): yes
    Outside of an incorporated area: no
    OC of a handgun outside of an incorporated area does not require a permit in Iowa.
    Totally disagree with the concept that OC of a handgun provides RAS, even though a permit might be required.
    Please provide a cite to clear this up.

    Can a LEO legitimately make a traffic stop just because you are driving (no infraction of the law) to see if you have a license?

    Can a doctor be stopped because he is carrying a medical bag to see if he is licensed to practice?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Iowa Code 724.5.

    Its an arguable point on open vs concealed. 724.5 says concealed, while 724.4.i states you must show a permit. I believe a man was just arrested in des moines for not showing a permit. I dont knkw what the outcome was.

    I have thrown around the idea of not carrying my permit while open carrying, as we need caselaw to tell us for sure.

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    724.4 CARRYING WEAPONS.
    1. Except as otherwise provided in this section, a person who goes armed with a dangerous weapon concealed on or about the person,
    or who, within the limits of any city, goes armed with a pistol or revolver, or any loaded firearm of any kind, whether concealed or not, or who knowingly carries or transports in a vehicle a pistol or revolver, commits an aggravated misdemeanor.

    4. Subsections 1 through 3 do not apply to any of the following:

    i. A person who has in the person's possession and who displays to a peace officer on demand a valid permit to carry weapons which has been issued to the person, and whose conduct is within the limits of that permit. A person shall not be convicted of a violation of this section if the person produces at the person's trial a permit to carry weapons which was valid at the time of the alleged offense and which would have brought the person's conduct within this exception if the permit had been produced at the time of the alleged offense.


    724.5 DUTY TO CARRY PERMIT TO CARRY WEAPONS.
    A person armed with a revolver, pistol, or pocket billy concealed upon the person shall have in the person's immediate possession the
    permit provided for in section 724.4, subsection 4, paragraph "i", and shall produce the permit for inspection at the request of a peace officer.
    Failure to so produce a permit is a simple misdemeanor.

    *********************************************

    IMHO - 724.4 (4)(i) is a get out of jail {strike]free[/strike] cheaper card - you can beat the charge, but not the ride.

    An OC gun is not "concealed upon the person" re 724.5

    It would seem that you have no requirement to produce a permit when OCing, IF you have a permit - strange that

    General District Courts do not establish case law as a rule. Only at the appellate level does this occur.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    724.4 CARRYING WEAPONS.
    General District Courts do not establish case law as a rule. Only at the appellate level does this occur.
    Can you explain what you mean by this? I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding you or just disagreeing with you because that's an over simplified statement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker6900 View Post
    Iowa Code 724.5.

    Its an arguable point on open vs concealed. 724.5 says concealed, while 724.4.i states you must show a permit. I believe a man was just arrested in des moines for not showing a permit. I dont knkw what the outcome was.

    I have thrown around the idea of not carrying my permit while open carrying, as we need caselaw to tell us for sure.

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    That man's name is Dennis Estell and, according to Iowa Courts Online, that case is still making it through the courts. He(or someone claiming to be him) posted in the thread on that topic last fall. I thought there was another case too, but can't seem to find anything.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    General District Courts do not establish case law as a rule. Only at the appellate level does this occur.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkshadow62988 View Post
    Can you explain what you mean by this? I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding you or just disagreeing with you because that's an over simplified statement.
    District courts (original trial) render decisions that are not binding on other courts, other trials; hence do not establish "case law."

    Only when such a decision is appealed (appellate level or to the Supreme Court) is a precedent (case law) established.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judiciary_of_Iowa

    I see nothing in the judiciary structure that would indicate other than this traditional approach to English Common law.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    [QUOTE=OC for ME;2054312]The traffic stop is more likely a department policy/cop personal preference thing. In Missouri a cop can arrest, without a warrant, for a busted tail light. THIS SEEMS A BIT HARSH... WOW... What is the charge and could the charge have an impact when applying for a gun permit or license etc?

    OCing? Well, if you think the only thing the cop is "Terry Stopping" you for is your OC'd firearm then I would be sure that I'm recording and not speaking one word. That cop will have to articulate his RAS in front of a judge.[/QUOTE

    Yes indeed, have the recorder running at all times.

    My.02

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    District courts (original trial) render decisions that are not binding on other courts, other trials; hence do not establish "case law."

    Only when such a decision is appealed (appellate level or to the Supreme Court) is a precedent (case law) established.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judiciary_of_Iowa

    I see nothing in the judiciary structure that would indicate other than this traditional approach to English Common law.
    I was under the impression that the ruling in a District court was binding on that district. That's why there are different districts in Florida where a certain type of OC(I think fishing) is legal and another where it isn't. I get that unless a superior court says it then it doesn't necessarily apply at the equal level courts where a decision is made.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkshadow62988 View Post
    I was under the impression that the ruling in a District court was binding on that district. That's why there are different districts in Florida where a certain type of OC(I think fishing) is legal and another where it isn't. I get that unless a superior court says it then it doesn't necessarily apply at the equal level courts where a decision is made.
    Not binding at all. Doesn't even make a valid argument/defense.

    Different districts as a matter of convenience for the courts only.

    OC in the entire state of Florida is legal to, from, during fishing, hunting, camping, and range time.
    Don't make a detour along the way though.

    (h) A person engaged in fishing, camping, or lawful hunting or going to or returning from a fishing, camping, or lawful hunting expedition;
    http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/...s/0790.25.html
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 04-24-2014 at 02:02 PM. Reason: added
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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