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Thread: Am I understanding this correctly?

  1. #1
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    Am I understanding this correctly?

    Hello all!
    Newb here at OC. Please excuse me if this has been asked before, it's hard to find threads that are so specific to my question.
    While I am an open carry advocate for reasons stated around here by many, I have completed my CPL class and await my appearance before the Macomb county board to finalize my license. I have a situation...

    I am a residential construction contractor. I will be working in the #1 "most dangerous neighborhoods in America" (as seen here), on the exterior of many homes.

    So my question...
    According to the Michigan law;
    Code:
    CARRYING
    
        It is unlawful to carry a handgun concealed on or about one’s person or concealed or openly in a vehicle without a license to carry a concealed pistol. 
    
        A Michigan license is not required:
    
            -To transport a pistol unloaded and in a container in a trunk of a vehicle or, if the vehicle has no trunk, the pistol is in a container and is not readily 
              accessible to the occupants of the vehicle, provided that the pistol is being transported for a lawful purpose.
    
            -To carry in one’s dwelling house or place of business or on one’s own land.
            
            -Carrying an antique firearm, unloaded and in a container in the trunk of a vehicle.
            
            -When a person who is licensed to carry a concealed pistol in the state of his residence, 
              except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.
    
            -When a person is a law enforcement officer.
    Considering that this is my place of business for the next two weeks or so, Is it safe to say I can carry concealed while I am working on this project? It's more of a safety concern of mine. I would normally just open carry, but I'd feel like the target if something goes wrong.

    I would rather not end up with a felony for CCW and lose my right to own firearms should the police pull up and I am completely off base with my understanding here.

    Any experience with such a matter would be greatly appreciated!

  2. #2
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    You can open carry without a cpl(on foot). If asked by private property owners to disarm you must comply or leave.
    You can only conceal carry on your own property in MI without a cpl! No where else period. Looks like you will have little choice from your post above but to wait out your appearance before the macomb GB. Once you have that silly blue card you are safe to conceal.

    You should try to catch a open carry seminar. Michigan open carry does them in most of MI. If you're in Detroit- there are some seminars held at churches and community centers by the Detroit 300 group.

    Good luck! Yet another example of why MI needs constitutional carry. No one should have to worry about getting killed why they wait for a gun board!
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 04-22-2014 at 01:04 AM.
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    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    You can open carry without a cpl(on foot). If asked by private property owners to disarm you must comply or leave.
    You can only conceal carry on your own property in MI without a cpl! No where else period. Looks like you will have little choice from your post above but to wait out your appearance before the macomb GB. Once you have that silly blue card you are safe to conceal.

    You should try to catch a open carry seminar. Michigan open carry does them in most of MI. If you're in Detroit- there are some seminars held at churches and community centers by the Detroit 300 group.

    Good luck! Yet another example of why MI needs constitutional carry. No one should have to worry about getting killed why they wait for a gun board!
    Thank you for the reply!
    I was really hoping I found a loophole or a legal gray area that I could work with. Not by any means to blatantly break the law, but as I posted, it's more of an extra safety layer.

    Oh well

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    Quote Originally Posted by RyNinDaCleM View Post
    Hello all!
    Newb here at OC. Please excuse me if this has been asked before, it's hard to find threads that are so specific to my question.
    While I am an open carry advocate for reasons stated around here by many, I have completed my CPL class and await my appearance before the Macomb county board to finalize my license. I have a situation...

    I am a residential construction contractor. I will be working in the #1 "most dangerous neighborhoods in America" (as seen here), on the exterior of many homes.

    So my question...
    According to the Michigan law;
    Code:
    CARRYING
    
        It is unlawful to carry a handgun concealed on or about one’s person or concealed or openly in a vehicle without a license to carry a concealed pistol. 
    
        A Michigan license is not required:
    
            -To transport a pistol unloaded and in a container in a trunk of a vehicle or, if the vehicle has no trunk, the pistol is in a container and is not readily 
              accessible to the occupants of the vehicle, provided that the pistol is being transported for a lawful purpose.
    
            -To carry in one’s dwelling house or place of business or on one’s own land.
            
            -Carrying an antique firearm, unloaded and in a container in the trunk of a vehicle.
            
            -When a person who is licensed to carry a concealed pistol in the state of his residence, 
              except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.
    
            -When a person is a law enforcement officer.
    Considering that this is my place of business for the next two weeks or so, Is it safe to say I can carry concealed while I am working on this project? It's more of a safety concern of mine. I would normally just open carry, but I'd feel like the target if something goes wrong.

    I would rather not end up with a felony for CCW and lose my right to own firearms should the police pull up and I am completely off base with my understanding here.

    Any experience with such a matter would be greatly appreciated!

    Just curious here, why do you have to appear in front of the gun board? Michigan is a shall issue state and if you meet the requirements it should be automatically issued. Again this is just a question.

  5. #5
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Macomb Co GB has been doing this crap for years. They insist all applicants appear before them.

    While this is not required by law, most people just go along to get along. I know of one person who simply said "I meet all requirements per MCL. Issue my permit." They did.
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 04-23-2014 at 08:47 PM.
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    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    Macomb Co GB has been doing this crap for years. They insist all applicants appear before them.

    While this is not required by law, most people just go along to get along. I know of one person who simply said "I meet all requirements per MCL. Issue my permit." They did.
    It does vary from one county to the next, with seemingly, with little regard for which party is "in power" in said county. I'm told several "Republican majority" counties require you to go before the gun board. I have no idea why. I live in Ingham County, which is predominantly Democrat. By that I mean the county PA is a dem, the County clerk is a dem, and so is the sheriff. Yet, I've never had to appear before the gun board. I put in my application, and a few weeks later, I get a card from the county clerk saying I can pickup my license.

    It's just odd.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyNinDaCleM View Post

    I would rather not end up with a felony for CCW and lose my right to own firearms should the police pull up and I am completely off base with my understanding here.
    Welcome to the board. Your concern seems genuine and well founded. I suggest you seek out legal consul to get answers regarding your desired behavior and its possible legal consequences if you still wish a legal answer to a legal question.

    Here, we provide our thoughts on the answers to such thing but we only give opinions and not legal advice.

  8. #8
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyNinDaCleM View Post
    Hello all!
    Newb here at OC. Please excuse me if this has been asked before, it's hard to find threads that are so specific to my question.
    While I am an open carry advocate for reasons stated around here by many, I have completed my CPL class and await my appearance before the Macomb county board to finalize my license. I have a situation...

    I am a residential construction contractor. I will be working in the #1 "most dangerous neighborhoods in America" (as seen here), on the exterior of many homes.

    So my question...
    According to the Michigan law;
    Code:
    CARRYING
    
        It is unlawful to carry a handgun concealed on or about one’s person or concealed or openly in a vehicle without a license to carry a concealed pistol. 
    
        A Michigan license is not required:
    
            -To transport a pistol unloaded and in a container in a trunk of a vehicle or, if the vehicle has no trunk, the pistol is in a container and is not readily 
              accessible to the occupants of the vehicle, provided that the pistol is being transported for a lawful purpose.
    
            -To carry in one’s dwelling house or place of business or on one’s own land.
            
            -Carrying an antique firearm, unloaded and in a container in the trunk of a vehicle.
            
            -When a person who is licensed to carry a concealed pistol in the state of his residence, 
              except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.
    
            -When a person is a law enforcement officer.
    Considering that this is my place of business for the next two weeks or so, Is it safe to say I can carry concealed while I am working on this project? It's more of a safety concern of mine. I would normally just open carry, but I'd feel like the target if something goes wrong.

    I would rather not end up with a felony for CCW and lose my right to own firearms should the police pull up and I am completely off base with my understanding here.

    Any experience with such a matter would be greatly appreciated!
    You might want to check in with MGO forum. They have a section called "Legal Beagle Corner" where your questions are usually answered by lawyers.

    http://www.migunowners.org/forum/for...-Beagle-Corner
    Big Gay Al
    Coordinator, Michigan Pink Pistols
    Big Gay Al's Big Gay (Gun) Blog
    Fabrique Nationale d'Herstal FNX-45 .45ACP 16 rounds of hurt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RyNinDaCleM View Post
    Hello all!
    Newb here at OC. Please excuse me if this has been asked before, it's hard to find threads that are so specific to my question.
    While I am an open carry advocate for reasons stated around here by many, I have completed my CPL class and await my appearance before the Macomb county board to finalize my license. I have a situation...

    I am a residential construction contractor. I will be working in the #1 "most dangerous neighborhoods in America" (as seen here), on the exterior of many homes.

    SNIP

    Considering that this is my place of business for the next two weeks or so, Is it safe to say I can carry concealed while I am working on this project? It's more of a safety concern of mine. I would normally just open carry, but I'd feel like the target if something goes wrong.

    I would rather not end up with a felony for CCW and lose my right to own firearms should the police pull up and I am completely off base with my understanding here.

    Any experience with such a matter would be greatly appreciated!
    That dog ain't gonna hunt.

    Until you obtain your CPL, pay close attention to at least three statutes and not always from excerpts provided by the NRA, MSP, ETC:

    1. http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(eua...me=mcl-750-227

    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.
    See the above Bold. A dwelling you're working on, for example, is not property/other land "possessed" by you.

    2. Lawful transport without CPL:

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(o04...e=mcl-750-231a

    3. Firearms prohibited on premises without a CPL or owner/agent permission:

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(khw...e=mcl-750-234d
    Last edited by SpringerXDacp; 04-24-2014 at 04:03 PM.

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    Thank you all for your replies

    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Welcome to the board. Your concern seems genuine and well founded. I suggest you seek out legal consul to get answers regarding your desired behavior and its possible legal consequences if you still wish a legal answer to a legal question.

    Here, we provide our thoughts on the answers to such thing but we only give opinions and not legal advice.
    I understand completely! Sometimes the interpretation from one person to the next gets a little confusing. I was really looking for someone who had direct experience and could possibly enlighten me as to the proper interpretation. I would never ask for advice to pass off blame. Ignorance is not an excuse!

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Gay Al View Post
    You might want to check in with MGO forum. They have a section called "Legal Beagle Corner" where your questions are usually answered by lawyers.

    http://www.migunowners.org/forum/for...-Beagle-Corner
    Thank you for that link, I will absolutely check that out.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpringerXDacp View Post
    That dog ain't gonna hunt.

    Until you obtain your CPL, pay close attention to at least three statutes and not always from excerpts provided by the NRA, MSP, ETC:

    1. http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(eua...me=mcl-750-227



    See the above Bold. A dwelling you're working on, for example, is not property/other land "possessed" by you.

    2. Lawful transport without CPL:

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(o04...e=mcl-750-231a

    3. Firearms prohibited on premises without a CPL or owner/agent permission:

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(khw...e=mcl-750-234d
    I have been reading as much as I can find. The MSP page has a 266 page PDF of the laws which is kind of daunting. Then there is the NRAILA.org which seems to write it differently. So with many conflicting arguments, it's hard to figure out what to live by.
    Last edited by RyNinDaCleM; 04-24-2014 at 08:42 PM.

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    I found this on the MSP FAQ page;

    2. I work as a security guard. Does my profession entitle me to carry a concealed pistol without a license in Michigan as required by my employer?

    MCL 750.227 No. You can only carry a pistol while on duty on the premises of your employer and only if it is exposed.

    If you wish to carry a pistol concealed, you must obtain a concealed pistol license through the county gun board.

    28.425n(2)b This does not prohibit an employer from prohibiting the carrying of the concealed pistol by an employee while in the course of his or her employment with that employer.
    I take this as; He is at his place of business (like in my OP), and it is NOT legal for him to carry concealed. It was already answered by FreeInAZ, but finding it on the MSP site solidifies it for me.

    So, one more question.
    Assuming that the pistol is cased and locked up properly for transport, can I take it anywhere I want? (pistol free zones excluded, obviously) I mean, can I take it to work, then open carry it, then at the end of the day, lock it back up apart from ammo/out of reach from occupants of the vehicle and drive home?

    Sorry for all the noobness My brain is going to explode from all the reading and processing of info I've been doing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RyNinDaCleM View Post

    SNIP

    I have been reading as much as I can find. The MSP page has a 266 page PDF of the laws which is kind of daunting. Then there is the NRAILA.org which seems to write it differently. So with many conflicting arguments, it's hard to figure out what to live by.
    This is where the, "...not always from excerpts..." comes into play:

    The below, MSP Legal Update No. 86 should help. The pertinent sections of the law are provided (links).

    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...2_336854_7.pdf

  13. #13
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyNinDaCleM View Post
    I found this on the MSP FAQ page;



    I take this as; He is at his place of business (like in my OP), and it is NOT legal for him to carry concealed. It was already answered by FreeInAZ, but finding it on the MSP site solidifies it for me.

    So, one more question.
    Assuming that the pistol is cased and locked up properly for transport, can I take it anywhere I want? (pistol free zones excluded, obviously) I mean, can I take it to work, then open carry it, then at the end of the day, lock it back up apart from ammo/out of reach from occupants of the vehicle and drive home?

    Sorry for all the noobness My brain is going to explode from all the reading and processing of info I've been doing.
    Ryn... providing where you are working (property owners or authorized agent of the owners ) are OK with you OCing, then yes you can carry there. Follow the transport laws to the letter. Make sure the case you use is one designed for the transport of a pistol (not a backpack/toolbox).

    Be careful not to load or have in your hands your pistol while in/on or even partially in the vehicle. Example - you load pistol while standing at the tail gate of your truck or trunk of car. You could be charged with a ccw crime. Why? MI law is so vague/warped on what s vehicle is you risk going to jail if a cop/DA/Judge/jury can't apply common sense. So if you want to stay out of trouble follow these steps.

    Transport in "transport mode". Have your mags/speed loaders on your belt along with your empty holster. When you get to where you are going - remove your legally cased (unloaded) pistol completely from the vehicle. Try to be relaxed and take the case to the most private area where you parked. Back/front of vehicle away from traffic. Place the case on the ground remove pistol, load safely. Once done, if able take the case with you. It avoids you going back into the vehicle and keeps you clear of officer shady Grady. If you must put the case back into the vehicle, make sure you do not let the holstered pistol break the plane of the vehicle. Do this by using your weak hand to place it inside, making sure to pivot your strong side away from the interior.

    It's a pain in the butt - yet it will keep you out of jail, until you get your cpl. After that you're golden. When leaving if you have your case with you at the worksite - simply unload safely and transport as if you were going on a trip. If not reverse steps above.

    Good luck and stay safe.
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    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    Ryn... providing where you are working (property owners or authorized agent of the owners ) are OK with you OCing, then yes you can carry there. Follow the transport laws to the letter. Make sure the case you use is one designed for the transport of a pistol (not a backpack/toolbox).

    Be careful not to load or have in your hands your pistol while in/on or even partially in the vehicle. Example - you load pistol while standing at the tail gate of your truck or trunk of car. You could be charged with a ccw crime. Why? MI law is so vague/warped on what s vehicle is you risk going to jail if a cop/DA/Judge/jury can't apply common sense. So if you want to stay out of trouble follow these steps.

    Transport in "transport mode". Have your mags/speed loaders on your belt along with your empty holster. When you get to where you are going - remove your legally cased (unloaded) pistol completely from the vehicle. Try to be relaxed and take the case to the most private area where you parked. Back/front of vehicle away from traffic. Place the case on the ground remove pistol, load safely. Once done, if able take the case with you. It avoids you going back into the vehicle and keeps you clear of officer shady Grady. If you must put the case back into the vehicle, make sure you do not let the holstered pistol break the plane of the vehicle. Do this by using your weak hand to place it inside, making sure to pivot your strong side away from the interior.

    It's a pain in the butt - yet it will keep you out of jail, until you get your cpl. After that you're golden. When leaving if you have your case with you at the worksite - simply unload safely and transport as if you were going on a trip. If not reverse steps above.

    Good luck and stay safe.
    Thank you very much! These laws are writen as bad as tax forms. They write them in a way that you are sure to screw something up.

  15. #15
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyNinDaCleM View Post
    Thank you very much! These laws are writen as bad as tax forms. They write them in a way that you are sure to screw something up.
    Sadly, you have a valid point. Seems the legislature is filled with lawyers & want-to-be goofs. It is also job security for them. Think of it this way: they are like the road crews on I-94 near metro airport. They are constantly patching the same crappy job they should have done right in the first place! So in the end it paid much more for them to do a half a$s job in the beginning vs. doing it right at the start! Government - one of the few jobs that rewards and promotes mediocrity.
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    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

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