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  1. #1
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    identify

    Can any one tell me if in Pa you have to tell the LEO who just stopped you for a traffic infraction, that you are carrying in your car?

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    Regular Member JustaShooter's Avatar
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    According to http://handgunlaw.us/states/pennsylvania.pdf you do not have a duty to notify when stopped, but looks like you have to produce your license if asked:

    Title 18 Part I. Article G. Chapter 61. Subchapter A. § 6122. Proof of License and Exception.
    (a) General Rule.
    --
    When carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle, an individual licensed to carry a firearm shall, upon lawful demand of a law enforcement officer, produce the license for inspection. Failure to produce such license either at the time of arrest or at the preliminary hearing shall create a rebuttable presumption of nonlicensure.
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    5th amendment out the window?
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 04-22-2014 at 09:08 PM.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    5th amendment out the window?
    Looks kinda like it. Not having license in possession means you get a ride apparently. I wonder if producing license later would be a defense.

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    Nowhere in Pennsylvania are you required to inform that you're carrying. Now, if the police officer sees the firearm, or you volunteer that you have one, then that's a whole different ball of wax.

    If stopped for an alleged motor vehicle infraction, you are not required to respond to an officer's query about firearms since that's not the reason for the traffic stop. Stay silent when asked. If asked such, put the ball back in the officer's court by asking if that's why you were stopped. Or stay silent.

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    Founder's Club Member scruff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Statkowski View Post
    Nowhere in Pennsylvania are you required to inform that you're carrying. Now, if the police officer sees the firearm, or you volunteer that you have one, then that's a whole different ball of wax.

    If stopped for an alleged motor vehicle infraction, you are not required to respond to an officer's query about firearms since that's not the reason for the traffic stop. Stay silent when asked. If asked such, put the ball back in the officer's court by asking if that's why you were stopped. Or stay silent.
    ^^^ this. But FYI, the officers now know you have a LTCF when they run your license. With that knowledge, they'll probably be going on more of these fishing expeditions than in the past. Best to have a plan on how to handle that question before you get pulled over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scruff View Post
    ^^^ this. But FYI, the officers now know you have a LTCF when they run your license. With that knowledge, they'll probably be going on more of these fishing expeditions than in the past. Best to have a plan on how to handle that question before you get pulled over.
    I ignore the questions ... I may answer "Hey! That's a probative question." Never had a cop ask any followups to that statement ~ they know.

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Birdman View Post
    Can any one tell me if in Pa you have to tell the LEO who just stopped you for a traffic infraction, that you are carrying in your car?
    No! Upon demand you have to produce your license to carry in a motor vehicle.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Must you provide a permit, that the cop may now know that you have, if unarmed?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Curmudgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Must you provide a permit, that the cop may now know that you have, if unarmed?
    IF he "knows you have it" (a license), what purpose is served by requiring you to show it, when unarmed? It makes no sense to me.
    PA is not a state in which a person is required to ID themselves for no particular reason, so I would say "no".

    Here is the statute relating to providing the LTCF upon demand. Please note that it clearly says "When carry a firearm..."

    18 Pa.C.S. § 6122. Proof of license and exception.
    (a) General rule.--When carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle, an
    individual licensed to carry a firearm shall, upon lawful demand of a law enforcement officer, produce
    the license for inspection. Failure to produce such license either at the time of arrest or at the
    preliminary hearing shall create a rebuttable presumption of nonlicensure.
    (b) Exception.--An individual carrying a firearm on or about his person or in a vehicle and
    claiming an exception under section 6106(b) (relating to firearms not to be carried without
    a license) shall, upon lawful demand of a law enforcement officer, produce satisfactory evidence of
    qualification for exception.
    (Dec. 19, 1988, P.L.1275, No.158, eff. 180 days; Apr. 22, 1997, P.L.73, No.5, eff. 60 days)
    1997 Amendment. Act 5 amended subsec. (a). 1988 Amendment. Act 158 added section 6122.
    Source: http://www.legis.state.pa.us
    I did find the question interesting, and admit I had to think about it a bit.
    .
    While many claim to support the right to keep and bear arms, precious few support the practice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Must you provide a permit, that the cop may now know that you have, if unarmed?
    If unarmed, it's irrelevant.

    Two issues come to mind:

    1. How indeed does the officer know that you have an LTCF? Knowledge of such is supposed to be confidential, known only to you and the sheriff issuing it. I would file a written, hard-copy complaint, with info copy to your elected state representative, to both the officer's police department and to the sheriff issuing the license. See 18 Pa. C.S. § 6111(i).

    Confidentiality. All information provided by the potential … applicant, including, but not limited to, the … applicant’s name or identity, furnished by … any applicant for a license to carry a firearm as provided by section 6109 shall be confidential and not subject to public disclosure. In addition to any other sanction or penalty imposed by this chapter, any person, licensed dealer, State or local governmental agency or department that violates this subsection shall be liable in civil damages in the amount of $1,000 per occurrence or three times the actual damages incurred as a result of the violation, whichever is greater, as well as reasonable attorney fees.
    2. The license must be presented upon lawful demand. If the traffic stop has nothing whatsoever with your possessing an LTCF, or firearm, is the request indeed a lawful command, knowing full well that ownership of your license is supposed to be confidential?

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Statkowski View Post
    If unarmed, it's irrelevant.

    Two issues come to mind:

    1. How indeed does the officer know that you have an LTCF? Knowledge of such is supposed to be confidential, known only to you and the sheriff issuing it. I would file a written, hard-copy complaint, with info copy to your elected state representative, to both the officer's police department and to the sheriff issuing the license. See 18 Pa. C.S. § 6111(i).

    2. The license must be presented upon lawful demand. If the traffic stop has nothing whatsoever with your possessing an LTCF, or firearm, is the request indeed a lawful command, knowing full well that ownership of your license is supposed to be confidential?
    I think that cops can get the info, "...and not subject to public disclosure...." Bureaucrats who do release the data to the public get in trouble.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    IF he "knows you have it" (a license), what purpose is served by requiring you to show it, when unarmed? It makes no sense to me.
    PA is not a state in which a person is required to ID themselves for no particular reason, so I would say "no".

    Here is the statute relating to providing the LTCF upon demand. Please note that it clearly says "When carry a firearm..."



    I did find the question interesting, and admit I had to think about it a bit.
    .
    "Lawful demand" and 5th amendment seem to conflict ... yes?

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    Regular Member Curmudgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    "Lawful demand" and 5th amendment seem to conflict ... yes?
    Perhaps I don't understand the question. How do you see it as a conflict?
    While many claim to support the right to keep and bear arms, precious few support the practice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    Perhaps I don't understand the question. How do you see it as a conflict?
    Because ANY answer could be used against you in a court of law. 5th amendment kicks in...

    you avatar scares me ....
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 05-03-2014 at 04:16 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    Perhaps I don't understand the question. How do you see it as a conflict?
    Because in previous threads (not specific to PA), the boundaries of lawful have not been established.

    In a traffic stop of a licensed concealed carrier, whose status as licensed is protected, how can a cop make a lawful demand to inspect the license. Note that the statutory requirement is for inspection and not for unwarranted seizure, a violation of the Fourth Amendment.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Must you provide a permit, that the cop may now know that you have, if unarmed?
    What if I'm carrying my holstered firearm in a backpack between the seats? Can I say 'no sir, no permit for you, I'm not carrying today'.

    Cop: Are there weapons in the car
    Me: I'm not carrying today
    ...repeat ad finitum

  18. #18
    Regular Member Curmudgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Because ANY answer could be used against you in a court of law. 5th amendment kicks in...

    you avatar scares me ....

    I think I would be invoking the 4th before the 5th, simply because I see the 5th more as protection for the accused, protection for those
    on trial, during questioning upon arrest, etc. The "lawful demand" for a LTCF can only exist in the presence of a firearm carried in a manner
    which requires a LTCF, else the "lawful demand" makes no sense.

    In the OP (remember the OP) the situation was inquired about the demand for a license/permit even though no firearm was present. In that
    particular scenario I would be finding diplomatic ways to invite the LEO to go pound sand.

    BUT

    If I was carrying in such a way that did require a LTCF, and a "lawful demand" to see it was made, I would consider my showing it to be my
    instant "get out or jail free card". In PA, carrying without a LTCF when one is required is either an M1 or an F3 and both are lifetime prohibiting
    on a federal basis.

    BTW - the avatar is my grandson being raucous in his bathtub, and he scares us all... in a good way so far, but he's only 6 yet.
    While many claim to support the right to keep and bear arms, precious few support the practice.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Curmudgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Because in previous threads (not specific to PA), the boundaries of lawful have not been established.

    In a traffic stop of a licensed concealed carrier, whose status as licensed is protected, how can a cop make a lawful demand to inspect the license. Note that the statutory requirement is for inspection and not for unwarranted seizure, a violation of the Fourth Amendment.

    Well, first, as this is a PA thread, my interest in discussing the law outside PA plummets drastically, mostly because I travel armed very little outside it, but also because this is a PA-based sub-forum.

    Second, although I would agree a LEO has no business asking to see a LTCF for firearm that he has no idea is present, I first find the entire scenario preposterous. Why would he ever do such a thing, it makes no earthly sense?

    I have had dozens of encounters with PA LEOs in the 5 1/2 years I have been carrying, some by chance, some because I was traffic-stopped (bogus, fishing for DUI at 2am-3am), and sometimes open carrying, sometimes conceal carrying, and never once asked to show my LTCF.

    NEVER. ONCE.

    That I might be "lawfully demanded" to show a license they would have to dig and research just to know I even possess, absent any firearm at all, defies any reason or logic i can imagine.

    Incidentally, in forum threads elsewhere as well and far too numerous to list, the topic of what legally or even constitutionally defines "lawful demand" remains a mystery as it has never been defined within the statutes nor in any case law we have ever been able to find.
    While many claim to support the right to keep and bear arms, precious few support the practice.

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